[00:00:00] Hi, with a flick of a switch we turn night to day and day to night. We can
[00:00:06] change seasons, actions and states of mind. Light is everywhere. Used endlessly
[00:00:12] and very much a part of our modern world. But what is it? How do we use it and how
[00:00:18] is it changing our environment and our behaviours? Starfield Sky used to be our
[00:00:24] evening's entertainment. Now it's Netflix, iPads or even a podcast. When was the last
[00:00:30] time you looked at the night sky? I'm Marni Og and this is Dark Sky Conversations,
[00:00:36] the podcast that brings people and science together to shed light.
[00:00:41] Alright well here we are today tonight or whenever you are listening to this
[00:00:46] podcast on Dark Sky Conversations. My name's Marni Og and today my guest is
[00:00:50] John Whittle. John tell us about yourself it's always better if you describe
[00:00:55] yourself and what you do. Okay sure, yes my name is John Whittle. I work for
[00:01:00] National Parks and Wildlife Service in based in Coonabarabaran area so the
[00:01:07] central north-central west of New South Wales. The Warren Magel National Park
[00:01:12] is part of the area that I look after and obviously it's a Dark Sky
[00:01:18] Park, the first Dark Sky Park in Southern Hemisphere. So background so I'm
[00:01:25] actually a forester by background I did my forest degree at ANU
[00:01:31] Canberra and actually did a year at Berkeley in California too as part of
[00:01:36] that degree just this exchange so it's really really quite interesting it's
[00:01:40] really good and then but I've been doing this job for the last since about
[00:01:45] 2006 so yep so and what does that job entail John? What's your sort of daily
[00:01:51] activity? Yeah so it's managing the people that manage the parks really so
[00:01:58] it's a bit of a desk job but yeah so we have a we have a ranges that sort of
[00:02:03] do look after the environmental aspects of managing national parks and try and
[00:02:07] improve our biodiversity and manage pests and weeds and fire and all those
[00:02:12] types of things that land managers have to do and then we also have a bunch of
[00:02:16] field offices that you know get down and actually do the you know the actual
[00:02:20] work so building the walking tracks and looking after all our visitor
[00:02:24] infrastructure and actually you know doing the pest work and lighting the
[00:02:31] fires and fighting the fires and all that kind of stuff so managing all those
[00:02:35] aspects of the job as well as keeping people informed about what we're
[00:02:41] doing and you know talking up as well as talking down I guess. It sounds like a
[00:02:46] never-ending job and with things like you know the drought that your area was
[00:02:52] particularly impacted by I guess you know most of Australia was really but yeah
[00:02:56] what yeah how do you manage aspects of natural disaster and you know
[00:03:02] what things can you put in place to make it easier? Yeah so I guess we take
[00:03:07] a risk management approach like most people so and you know one of the
[00:03:13] big things that we probably are facing is that climate change issue now which so
[00:03:20] we could probably when I started even to now so in the last 17 years we could
[00:03:27] probably predict our seasons more so than we can now even and in the last
[00:03:34] 20 years so our seasons are either longer you know we might get longer summers or
[00:03:41] hotter summers or milder summers or shorter summers but it just seems less
[00:03:45] predictable and the actual extremes are fierce I guess you could say and so
[00:03:52] yeah I guess that's probably the challenge that we're having is in the
[00:03:56] past we would put things in place we do has a reduction burning kind of new in
[00:04:00] our fire season was going to be and when we needed to be ready to react kind of
[00:04:05] new when we might when our storm period was and we you know we have things in
[00:04:09] place to manage what issues might come out of storms and plans that we have
[00:04:14] but that seems to be becoming more and more difficult so yeah yeah so do you
[00:04:21] do I think they call it the mosaic by a burning you know the first nations
[00:04:25] principles of area introducing that sort of fire? Yeah no we have we have been
[00:04:30] doing that for quite a long time that's part of it so we kind of break up our
[00:04:34] area into different sections so there's asset management sections where we
[00:04:42] know we've got assets right next door like our visitor areas where we need to
[00:04:46] focus on managing the fuels around those a bit more specifically we call
[00:04:51] those our asset management zones and then we've got our fire management
[00:04:55] advantage zones where we they're bigger areas sort of adjacent to those
[00:05:00] where we're looking to fuel reduction is part of part of our consideration when
[00:05:05] we're looking at those areas and the rest of it's called land management zone
[00:05:09] where it's about ecology and you know cultural burning and things like
[00:05:15] that so that we so that we're really concentrating on the biodiversity in
[00:05:20] ecology what we're looking at those areas so but overall it's a bit of
[00:05:25] a mosaic picture and the way we do it so we're trying to have some areas
[00:05:29] that haven't been burnt for quite a while some areas that might have been
[00:05:32] burnt more frequently and all sorts of bits in between and we know we kind of
[00:05:39] base it on on the regeneration you know native vegetation regeneration so
[00:05:44] obviously we don't want to burn before before the native vegetation can get
[00:05:50] onto another seed set because we're you know we'll be taking those bits of
[00:05:54] vegetation out of the scenery so generally we're trying to look at our
[00:06:00] vegetation and when when it's you know capable to burn again and sort of
[00:06:05] working out how we can sort of manage those time periods in between and that's
[00:06:09] all in amongst trying to to offset human needs at the park you know so when
[00:06:16] people want to be there and peak periods and I guess you would have just
[00:06:20] come through but as I as I understand it could have baribrates goes wild
[00:06:24] in Easter because it's not too hot it's not too cold it's good good night
[00:06:29] sky viewing and good which is one of the you know one of the most beautiful
[00:06:33] things to be doing out in the National Park there yeah no we have had it just a
[00:06:36] very busy weekend Easter weekend lots of people up there walking and I believe
[00:06:42] Siding Spring had that pretty busy period too with lots of people looking
[00:06:46] to do staggers we've got a few discovery activities that involve
[00:06:49] stargazing at the moment so the next couple of weeks during the school
[00:06:53] holidays so I'm hoping that lots of people take that up and get to learn
[00:06:56] more about the night sky yeah yeah and and and that's the point of this
[00:07:01] conversation really is to ask you what what sort of numbers of people are you
[00:07:05] seeing coming to the area and and whether it's because of the dark
[00:07:11] sky or because they talk you know where you see much of an impact and
[00:07:14] much of a benefit to the region or to the park because of the dark sky
[00:07:18] designation yes we are money it's ever since we were nominated or we became a
[00:07:25] dark sky park and people are wanting to come here for that reason but those you
[00:07:30] know that it's quite an iconic and they're not you know the dark sky park
[00:07:35] it really does sound like it's a good place to go if you want to see anyone
[00:07:39] you know dark sky so you know it's it's only anecdotal we haven't read
[00:07:45] there's probably an opportunity to do some sort of sort of marketing study but
[00:07:49] anecdotally people tell us that we've come out here because it's a dark sky park
[00:07:53] and we're expecting to see the dark sky and get to see some stars and do some
[00:07:58] stargazing so and added to that is the option to go and have a look at
[00:08:04] Siding Springham's Lutri which is you know quite a place for and actually I
[00:08:10] did a tour just recently and the of Siding Springham had an American visitor with me
[00:08:16] so we did a tour and they the tour guide told us that it's still in the top 10
[00:08:23] for night sky research in you know in the world as as rated by independent agency apparently
[00:08:31] and not just the tour guide yeah no that's right so no they're still very relevant
[00:08:36] so yeah you know so which is great to have it right there on the doorstep and as part of the
[00:08:40] dark sky park so as well as you know Warramungles and what does that involve for you or your team
[00:08:49] is then much you know I guess the reason I asked this particular question is
[00:08:55] is there extra work involved because I get a lot of places particularly around Australia asking
[00:09:01] look you know we're a national park or we're associated with the national park or we live beside
[00:09:05] the national park and we'd love to have it designated as a dark sky place yep but everyone's
[00:09:10] a little bit terrified about what this means you know does it mean that they're going to have to
[00:09:14] suddenly do a whole lot more work a whole lot more administration are there a lot of safety
[00:09:18] aspects that they have to consider or is it you know is it you know and and is it is the pro
[00:09:23] better than the con I get you know there's never anything that's completely you know no that's
[00:09:27] right no no look the pros are better than the cons there's a little bit of work but it's not
[00:09:34] onerous it's definitely not onerous it depends on where you want to take it you know like if you
[00:09:40] I mean there's a heap more we could do and then I wish we could do you know but we don't
[00:09:45] we're not resource to do it so we're sort of operating at the minimum I reckon
[00:09:52] so but having said that we're getting some great pros and there's always opportunities for us to
[00:09:59] look to do to do more stuff so that the main things that we do is we have a couple of committee
[00:10:04] meetings a year to talk about stuff there's an annual report that we have to provide to the
[00:10:10] international dark sky association which happens at the end of the year now so
[00:10:16] so there's a bit of information gathering for that because they want to want us to keep an eye on
[00:10:23] you know the the amount of light in the in the night sky at our particular location so
[00:10:30] we've actually just got a new sky mean to put up at the visitor center now so which is
[00:10:36] you know just little things like that so we just want to be building on those but
[00:10:40] it's not major work but you know if you wanted to you could do as much as you wanted to and
[00:10:46] you could get our hate done and we I wish we could but there's too many other priorities
[00:10:51] up yeah yeah um I think it's possibly important to note so that the the park was designated
[00:10:58] originally as the Warren Bungal National Park dark sky park and that was because it was a very
[00:11:02] specific boundary around it and um and I know that we so I was part of the team that helped
[00:11:09] it to be designated I know that we took advantage of the very sad fact that the national park
[00:11:15] had recently burnt through and basically all the infrastructure was being rebuilt so we could put
[00:11:21] and cord new lights so yeah that's right and yeah so the Sonic Springs included in it now and
[00:11:31] you know there's probably opportunities to include more more area within that dark sky park if you
[00:11:36] wanted to so I think yeah we're seeing about the Piliger the other day wouldn't it be wonderful
[00:11:42] yeah look at it the biggest dark sky park in the world probably then possibly well we may even it would
[00:11:48] even then um instead of turning it from a dark so the the designations go from park to reserve
[00:11:57] to sanctuary and they're all slightly different but I think we it would almost become a reserve
[00:12:01] if it was on on a bigger size on that sort of scale so yeah so so if a national park
[00:12:08] I have done this to you before John I've had people say who can I talk to what advice do you give
[00:12:15] other national parks if they they do renew and say that we're thinking of this do you
[00:12:20] you know have you got any um words of well look I I do this to you too I put them on to you
[00:12:28] because you because you're instrumental in you know in working through the dark side park
[00:12:34] the Warren bongal national park that's for a park originally so um so yeah that's partly I don't yeah
[00:12:46] really that's probably the main advice like you never chat with money first and then
[00:12:52] is there anything that we can do um so the australian dark sky alliance was asked a little
[00:12:59] while ago to do a report on how could we preserve our night skies more widely on a national basis
[00:13:06] and one of the aspects that we said was you know to create every Australian national park so the
[00:13:13] the big parks or the Roo Kakadu etc but also the state national parks to actually look at having
[00:13:19] them all designated as dark sky places and just put a blanket umbrella across them and even if
[00:13:25] that was just to mean putting in a lighting management policy and you know various elements of
[00:13:31] dark sky um outreach programs yep yep but it seems incredibly difficult to get to that stage and I
[00:13:43] kind of wonder what is the what not the opposition but what's the the the mechanism that would
[00:13:48] make that easier for dark four national parks to do that yeah okay so I think um what you
[00:13:54] mentioned before the caution about the amount of work required or the resources that might be
[00:13:59] required to go into a dark sky park is probably part of the reason why it would be difficult to
[00:14:06] convince a state organisation to do it across their board um but having said that I think the
[00:14:14] way I mean using for example war among was an example would be a way to to help understand
[00:14:22] you know what work is involved and I think across the whole state organisation it could
[00:14:27] quite easily be sort of pretty better absorbed than what what I'm doing on you know on the
[00:14:33] laying basis here at War among national national parks so um yeah so getting to the right people
[00:14:42] but yeah no I think um I think you've got to time it right there's a lot of stuff going on
[00:14:50] you know with each I'm sure with each organisation I know here we've just had a state election so
[00:14:58] we've got a new minister just starting to learn issues that we've got and um we're looking at
[00:15:06] doing uh first state in Australia to do have joint management of all of our national parks
[00:15:14] across the board which is a massive undertaking and we're just taking a lot of our
[00:15:19] consideration at the moment so what would that mean John well that would mean that we're managing
[00:15:25] all of our national parks jointly with um with the traditional owners oh right yeah that would
[00:15:31] be lovely wonderful yep so we do it we do it on about 40 or 50 percent of our national parks now
[00:15:41] but it's about putting you know bringing it right across and there's various mechanisms
[00:15:45] various mechanisms in law for doing doing that so there's lots of legal considerations as you can
[00:15:52] imagine and consultation and that kind of thing so that's an example of where we're doing something
[00:15:58] across the board but it's a pretty big project yeah well and that cultural um consultation
[00:16:05] can often take quite a long time too can't it just because and we've got a big state you know
[00:16:09] and different people different yeah lots of lots of mobs to talk to i think i would imagine new
[00:16:17] south wales would probably have some of it have almost the most number the most numerous just yeah
[00:16:24] yep yep you're listening to dark sky conversations with marnie onk we'll be right
[00:16:32] back after these messages from our sponsors so um going back to the outreach you've got a few programs
[00:16:45] there what do they what do they involve and who runs them for that for you are they organized by your
[00:16:51] own staff or are they out um yeah a couple of us so we are school holiday programs managed
[00:16:59] we have a school holiday program which is managed by national parks so we have
[00:17:07] specialists when we can find them who come and do you know we'll we'll pay them to do you know outreach
[00:17:16] so with the tour that the visitors to the national park and that's really quite popular that's one
[00:17:22] of our more popular um poorly um discovery activities um there's also other stuff that we
[00:17:34] we are a part of but we don't generally not organize for example star fest which happens in
[00:17:38] october which is managed by siding spring by anew and siding spring but we also attend and
[00:17:44] and are involved in that one um I mean we also there's also the opportunity I know
[00:17:52] and I know you're aware of this money there's also the opportunity for other people who want to do tours
[00:17:57] in the national park to to um to be able to do that through our eco pass program which is you
[00:18:04] know it's for people with what all sorts of tours you can do if you want to take bush walking
[00:18:08] turns or cultural tours or even you know hot air ballooning or rock climbing or bike riding or
[00:18:17] stargazing you know that we have that process I know it's probably not the easiest process
[00:18:22] mate because you've tried to go through money and had a few difficulties but yeah I do actually see
[00:18:27] the value in it though and I think that what it does is it puts you as a tour operator in
[00:18:36] the mindset of from the national park so I think it's you know it's very easy for someone like me to
[00:18:42] come in and say okay I'm going to run tours and we're going to do this and this and this but until
[00:18:46] you actually start looking at the ramifications to the national park or what's involved um it's
[00:18:54] it's only a one-way street so I think it actually does deepen the the value of the tour
[00:19:00] not just to the national park or to the supplier but to the guest who actually starts
[00:19:04] to hear and learn a little bit more about the national park as well and the impacts yeah so
[00:19:10] yeah it's not um it's not desperately difficult though it's just it just gives you an opportunity
[00:19:15] to put everything down on paper yeah formalizing and and it also means um you can do it across
[00:19:22] pretty easily not just the national park the original national park you apply for but it's
[00:19:27] pretty easy then to include other places if you want to go to other places if there's
[00:19:32] opportunities there so which is yeah and so what do you think the future is of the of the
[00:19:40] Warren Butler National Park do you see a lot of people coming out there now post COVID or you know
[00:19:46] what we is it good question there was post COVID a massive influx and the the American
[00:19:54] fellow that I took around the other day I don't know if you came across him um
[00:19:59] Matias Matias Schmidt so he my heard he was coming out yeah yeah so he manages
[00:20:07] the Cedar Breaks National Monument I think it's called so which is a dark sky park over in Utah
[00:20:14] um five million visitors a year which well compared to our 40 000 visitors a year that we
[00:20:20] currently have but anyway we were talking about post COVID they had the very much the same experience
[00:20:25] they had a massive influx in visitors um people who'd never been to national parks before um so who
[00:20:33] didn't um quite understand the etiquette you know in camping or uh or or even sort of the
[00:20:44] geography or distances I need to get there all sorts of things but had the same issue so um
[00:20:50] but it was a great opportunity to you know to have more people come and visit and learn about
[00:20:55] you know that their natural environment outside the cities that they live in um so that happened
[00:21:04] so big influx like we probably doubled our visitor number of visitors we had in one year back in
[00:21:11] 21 or 22 um but it has dropped back again to a more steady number which back to our probably
[00:21:22] pre-COVID numbers which were rising since the drought and the fire when we had the
[00:21:28] fire in 2013 obviously we lost all their infrastructure we couldn't have visitors
[00:21:32] we rebuilt people started trickling back in and then we got some really good numbers and
[00:21:37] we'd dark sky park show another bit of an influx in numbers and that stayed steady until COVID
[00:21:43] where it dropped again and then it's then it went gangbusters and now it's kind of back to probably
[00:21:49] pre-COVID so which um which which include you know which includes a sort of few extra numbers
[00:21:57] from the dark sky park and we probably um already had a point where we need to start
[00:22:03] thinking about how to do some more marketing and you know keep that keep those people rolling in at
[00:22:10] that kind of level so it is one of those sorts of places that people everybody I sort of tour
[00:22:17] around um sighting spring would say you know either we start the tour have you been here before
[00:22:22] and if it was anyone sort of over 50 60 70 years old they'd all say oh yes my parents
[00:22:27] brought me here when I was a kid yeah and I think that it's just one of those iconic destinations
[00:22:33] that you want to take your kids back to if you've been there or yeah um it is really very pretty
[00:22:39] and full of information full of knowledge and beautiful wonderful historical aspects from also
[00:22:46] you know modern and uh yeah yeah no you're right and um yeah there's lots of people that come
[00:22:55] back for a second time will bring their kids back it's really good to see so it's a nice place for a
[00:23:00] family to come and get a space yeah yep and so I was going to ask you though you mentioned campers
[00:23:08] yeah and I know that there are campers that like to bring their you know they that they're used
[00:23:16] to being in the sitting they're used having lights on everywhere they go they want to have their
[00:23:20] music in every you know every modcon with them and these days you know your caravan can pretty much
[00:23:25] take everything as well as the you know the cafe cafe machine to but what about lights how is that
[00:23:33] handled in a dark sky place yeah okay well I mean we we we advertise it as a dark sky park so as
[00:23:41] so when we're when we're taking their money as such and taking their bookies we tell them
[00:23:48] it's a dark sky park so that there's you know there's rules around lighting that doesn't stop us from
[00:23:52] having the odd issue so um we're still working on how to manage that a little bit because we don't
[00:24:00] really have a presence over overnight in the park most of the time um there's a couple of ways of
[00:24:06] dealing with it I mean there's more more marking you know like we might even do a pamphlet we're
[00:24:12] talking about thinking about seeing if we can organize a pamphlet to go to go to people as
[00:24:16] they come in or whatever there's also the camp host process that we do do and have quite a few
[00:24:23] national parks around the place where we have someone who stays in there permanently you know
[00:24:30] and is the point of contact kind of thing outside of ours as sort of a bit of a watcher over how
[00:24:37] things are going we've tried that in the past with not a great bit of success but seems to be
[00:24:42] picking up yes picking up okay it would depend on the person you had there I guess you know it's not
[00:24:49] easy to confront people no especially if they're having you know they've had a bit of a relaxing
[00:24:54] day and they're having a few beers and yeah yeah always and we don't know I do it on people's
[00:25:01] personal space really I know you they've rented it off for you but it's yeah yeah yeah it's about
[00:25:08] telling them no when they come you're coming to a dark spot park so we're expecting certain
[00:25:13] and we kind of do that for all of our camping across the state you know you're coming to
[00:25:19] camp on a national park this is the behaviour we expect so we do put that in in the sort of
[00:25:25] the information that we send to them when they book us on and you know this place doesn't you
[00:25:31] can't have campfires here because fire or you know and you can't have bodies shining up
[00:25:36] in the sky here because of dark sky park I would think so yeah yeah it's um it's good that you've got
[00:25:46] that capacity to be able to do that individually for it just like I guess as well yeah yeah yeah
[00:25:53] still a work in progress though whereas our ranger Blake is still keen to do some more work on that
[00:25:58] front so I wondered too I mean when we were talking about the dark sky designation there um
[00:26:07] wrench wilson who has now passed away was one of the first people to start talking about dark
[00:26:12] sky advocacy in Australia and he mentioned to me he said why don't you try and have a special
[00:26:17] area that's specific or you know that people pay a bit of a VIP rate to camps there but they
[00:26:23] know you know that this is complete you know it's the best place at the park or the darkest part or
[00:26:28] whatever so and that way you're not you know you're not disappointing those people who might have kids
[00:26:37] and might need a little bit of extra light oh you're not you know cross contaminating the
[00:26:40] areas basically yeah okay yeah actually I'll continue in spot for that I was away from everywhere
[00:26:49] else yeah well and I know that there are people overseas you know have these sorts of areas in
[00:26:56] dark sky places and they're prepared to walk in or no it's not necessarily something that they need
[00:27:01] to have running water and and all the you know all the facilities there they just want the darkest
[00:27:08] place basically okay there you go check something else to put on your list of things to do
[00:27:16] yeah so well I think that's fabulous and I'm I'm really grateful to the Warren
[00:27:23] Bungal National Park to take on that first being step of becoming a dark sky place and we had
[00:27:29] several meetings with you know various different people through all the organization
[00:27:34] we were a little bit nervous about it and as you said they were concerned that it would be just
[00:27:38] massive influxes of activities to do yeah the challenge for me is thinking of new activities
[00:27:47] because the idea is always challenging us to you know to keep keep the keep the dream alive I guess
[00:27:57] so yeah I think that's the challenge that I'm finding is it what else can we do to make sure
[00:28:02] we're letting people know about it and you know and giving them the experience and the
[00:28:11] educational information you know that that they need sort of things so instead of just doing
[00:28:18] the same little things year after year that's probably the challenge it on yeah these days
[00:28:24] and I think it also goes back to what you said before though too is that there are some dark
[00:28:29] sky places that have the capacity and the interest and the volunteers because this is you know it's
[00:28:35] basically a volunteer-led thing to do all those activities and and they want the people you know
[00:28:43] I did a dark sky conversation with Chris Tubble the other day and he was talking about the fact
[00:28:48] that they just had people springing up with new ideas because they want to get involved and
[00:28:53] because they've got that where you know not all areas do so yeah well actually I was talking to
[00:29:01] Mattias about this because he asked about astronomy society in Kernabarabra and there was a strong
[00:29:10] astronomy society but it's dwindled and I think the reason it's dwindled is because of technology
[00:29:16] because in the past scientists needed to travel to Kernabarabra to do their research at Signing Spring
[00:29:25] so we had lots of lots of interest and lots of people coming through but now with technology
[00:29:32] they don't need to be here in but it's a bit like you and I we don't need to be talking
[00:29:36] the same room anymore so they're doing their research from wherever and and that's had I think
[00:29:43] a bit of a deleterious effect on on the society in Kernabarabra and the sorts of people that we have
[00:29:51] yeah interesting yeah I I understand that I've seen the the town change and you know even the
[00:30:00] astronomers that have worked at the site at Signing Spring all their life who lived there
[00:30:05] because they could yeah and at maintain their their love of the night sky after they retired
[00:30:12] are moving out of town because they can set up telescopes remotely and and do what they want or
[00:30:17] yeah and yeah then the researchers don't have to hang around because you know few of the people
[00:30:22] that still live here are researchers that came here and brought their children up and decided it
[00:30:28] was a great place to stay and retire here as you say so yeah it's yep yep anyway I'm not sure
[00:30:35] what we do about that one but I'm not sure that's a problem that you can solve job no
[00:30:41] but it means that even the astronomical society here I think is sort of on the edge of on the verge
[00:30:45] of not being around anymore and that's that's a real shame it's an amazing thing isn't it when
[00:30:52] you consider that the tagline for Kernabarabra and was the astronomical capital of Australia and
[00:30:57] it's yeah it's changing the world is changing yeah yeah yeah yeah it is it's true so talking
[00:31:09] about dark places you've got your family out there have you got a memory of doing something with them
[00:31:15] or your own personal memory of dark skies somewhere that that really takes your heart
[00:31:23] somewhere yeah yeah like if you mean in in the warm months or else anyway you're allowed to say
[00:31:30] elsewhere yeah look at western New South Wales off on it's fantastic I love going out there and you
[00:31:36] know the dark sky so because it you know it's just you've got that what they call big sky you
[00:31:42] know you've just got so much a rise and to look at when you're out there and sharing that
[00:31:49] just I've got one of those in laps on my phone you know that you can point up at the sky so we can
[00:31:54] sort of talk about which stars are what but I just thought of the better one actually I took out
[00:32:01] we have an advisory committee it's part of our legislation that we have a small committee from
[00:32:06] different parts of walks of life that advise on our plans of management yeah and
[00:32:12] we had we talked about this on spring and they stayed at the lodge up there one time and
[00:32:20] I had a lady give us a talk on the dark sky and you know how to look at the stars and that kind
[00:32:27] of thing but she did it from a heritage historic perspective so it wasn't it wasn't the science
[00:32:36] as such you know these stars followed me a lot years away and this one next to it's you know
[00:32:41] and that forms that nebula etc etc is more about the ancient Greeks told these stories about these
[00:32:47] stars the Aboriginal local Aboriginal people told this story had these stars the Romans you know
[00:32:55] and it was fantastic it really was good just to think about the people over thousands or tens of
[00:33:02] thousands of years that have looked up at those stars and made stories about them so
[00:33:06] and it's an eye-opener for people that because especially people that live in cities they
[00:33:10] don't realize that that's been there for that long and that makes up their their history and their
[00:33:18] heritage you know yeah we're standing on the shoulders of people that have you know the
[00:33:23] knowledge that we have of our universe but it was fantastic yeah it was good and you know they
[00:33:27] tell quite good stories you know about this you know there's some sorted stories and
[00:33:33] fun yeah I can't remember about it you know remember at the time they're pretty funny
[00:33:37] that's great yeah and I think that's the thing is that there's so many different aspects about
[00:33:42] dark skies that yeah people can connect to so whether you might not be into astronomy but you
[00:33:48] are into birds or bats or cultural connection yeah that's right yeah yeah there's all those
[00:33:54] aspects small yeah well john I hope this conversation might get tapped into a few times by
[00:34:02] people from national parks who might yeah excellent embrace the idea and join the movement as they
[00:34:08] say so yeah I really appreciate your time and giving up your answers and your knowledge on this
[00:34:15] on the site and look forward to seeing more dark sky places being made with national parks
[00:34:20] across Australia and New South Wales it's very good so okay thanks very much no worries see ya