#darkskies #internationaldarkskyweek2023 #astronomy
[00:00:00] Thank you, Dark Sky listeners. My name is Marnie Ogg and today I'm
[00:00:06] conversing with Chris Tulkwell who is a South Australian man based in Adelaide
[00:00:12] a film writer, a Lanke worker and really a Dark Sky entrepreneur. His love and
[00:00:19] passion to make things happen is completely evident in this conversation and it's
[00:00:25] his connections with local government tourism providers, technical and assistance
[00:00:30] and the general community that have really made a small patch of private land
[00:00:36] her from Scrapple and to Australia's first Dark Sky Reserve on the Murray River
[00:00:42] about 90 minutes out of the capital of South Australia in Adelaide. So I loved
[00:00:50] chatting with Chris because his conservation efforts really expanded this area and
[00:00:57] really made it a number one tourist destination for everyone to get to and I think
[00:01:03] it's absolutely admirable. So join us as you may also be inspired to create
[00:01:08] another Dark Sky space. Thank you. Hi, we're the flick of a switch. We turn
[00:01:13] night to day and day to night. We can change seasons, actions and states of mind.
[00:01:20] Light is everywhere. Used endlessly and very much a part of our modern world.
[00:01:27] But what is it? How do we use it? And how is it changing our environment and our behaviours?
[00:01:33] A style filled sky used to be our evening's entertainment. Now it's Netflix, iPads
[00:01:39] or even a podcast. When was the last time you looked at the night sky?
[00:01:44] I'm Marniog and this is Dark Sky Conversations. The podcast that brings people
[00:01:49] and science together to shed light. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon.
[00:01:55] Who knows what time of the day you're listening to this podcast? Maybe it's at night given
[00:02:00] its Dark Sky conversations but today my guest is Chris Tugwell and I've always said that
[00:02:06] the best way to ask somebody about what they do in life is to get them to do it themselves.
[00:02:10] So Chris tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got to be involved in Dark Sky's.
[00:02:17] It's a bit of a long journey but I'll give you the sure version.
[00:02:21] I actually started a train as an actor and dancer so I worked in the theatre for quite a long time
[00:02:29] and because the arts are always crazy you can be in work for quite a while and then suddenly it stops
[00:02:39] and so I became a teacher and I worked in Yara which was a regional city and South Australia.
[00:02:47] I loved teaching it was fantastic but I felt the call for the acting part of my life.
[00:02:55] I didn't want to give it a miss completely and so I came back to to Everled and worked in
[00:03:01] youth theatre mostly performing in schools doing shows for primary school kids doing tours into
[00:03:10] country towns or over the state and that's how I got involved in writing eventually.
[00:03:16] I started writing theatre plays and star on four young performers for young audiences.
[00:03:24] Fabulous!
[00:03:25] And so that was sort of the writing journey and my partner and I she's a psychiatric nurse
[00:03:33] and we've always been interested in the environment and we decided back in the 90s to try and find
[00:03:43] a block of land something to do some re-vegetation some regeneration of
[00:03:50] somewhere that really needed it and we were looking for 10 acres and we somehow ended up with
[00:03:57] 350 and this was on the river Murray on top of the cliffs at a place called Big Bend
[00:04:05] and it is a place where the night sky is absolutely extraordinary and so we've sat around
[00:04:14] bush fires, campfires looking at the stars there and just thinking this is amazing and
[00:04:24] then I heard about the dark sky movement and because of our re-vegetation work and so on
[00:04:33] we got involved in van care and I got onto the committee of the Mid-Merryland Care Committee
[00:04:41] and suggested to them that we might be able to do something about creating some kind of dark sky
[00:04:48] place in the region and I thought they think I was crazy and just say you know forget about it
[00:04:56] but they didn't they said great idea go off and see what you can do and that's actually
[00:05:03] rather about when you and I met because I came to the conference in sightings brings
[00:05:09] and which I found an incredibly inspiring event and part of that gave us the impetus to talk to
[00:05:18] the council get them motivated they've been absolutely amazing mid-Cumlory council have been
[00:05:25] really extraordinary in supporting this and so what we've ended up with is a 3,500 square
[00:05:32] kilometre dark sky reserve which is kind of bigger than I imagined in the beginning but it's a
[00:05:39] combination of townships, conservation parks, private land, pastoral land all sorts of different
[00:05:50] areas come under this dark sky reserve and that involves as you know council adopting
[00:06:00] dark sky policies, writing management plans and so on so has been an extraordinarily
[00:06:08] complicated journey I've learnt things I never thought I needed to know but I think one of the
[00:06:15] things going back to the arts is I think what I found is the way that people argue about or discuss
[00:06:25] art projects is always to see the positives in it and to say this is going to be fantastic your
[00:06:32] love it and the dark sky people that I talked to at the beginning were always saying all light
[00:06:39] pollution's really bad you've got to do something about it and most people you talk to haven't even
[00:06:45] heard about light pollution so you've got to start but they have heard of the night sky well yes
[00:06:51] that's right they have heard of stars and planets yeah they don't see the two they haven't
[00:06:57] given that any thought that there is an impact between what they do and the darkness so
[00:07:08] let's pull that that that price has a part a little bit so you got your block you were looking for
[00:07:13] you block of ten acres and then got 350 and so were you already involved with land care then
[00:07:21] no it was it was afterwards that you got involved well we were looking for a way to actually do
[00:07:26] some re-vegetation and we first got involved with trees for life and we started planting seedlings
[00:07:33] and so on but when you're dealing with the property that size plantings seedlings by hand is
[00:07:40] really hard work especially the property that we ended up with has sheet rhinestone across it and
[00:07:47] that makes digging holes incredibly difficult so we heard about some funding that was available
[00:07:55] through land care to do direct seeding so we did we applied for some funding for that
[00:08:03] we got money to do 10 kilometers worth of direct seeding which sounds like a lot
[00:08:11] and that was done in one year and then we went back and said can we have some more and they said
[00:08:17] yes and for eight years at a road they gave us money so we've done 80 kilometers worth of
[00:08:24] direct seeding on our property so this and that was when when did you start doing that was
[00:08:31] what early approximately 2000 was far over I think maybe so most of that seeding it so you
[00:08:38] were developing this relationship with with a few different parties you were sort of re re re re re vegetating
[00:08:44] and what had degenerated to land was it gray seedlings it was a sheep's station it had been
[00:08:50] it had had had sheep on it for over a hundred years so it was there was we call the property three
[00:08:58] trees because we have three magnificent 500 year old malle trees on the property and that was about
[00:09:07] all there was everything else was below ankle height it was really terribly abused so we felt
[00:09:17] it needed a bit of loving care and a bit of a bit of help because there wasn't any and how far
[00:09:23] away is that from sorry go on yep sorry go on there's a bit of a lag here yet how far I was going
[00:09:29] to ask how far away is this from town from Adelaide if I wanted to go out and see it's about 120 kilometers
[00:09:36] and it's so far and that's been one of the extraordinary things that in talking about this
[00:09:42] dark sky reserve is we've been able to say this is 90 minutes but middle of the reserve is 90
[00:09:49] minutes from an international airport you can get to somewhere that's one of the darkest places
[00:09:55] in the world in no time at all and have made magnificent experience so that's something yeah
[00:10:04] and so who have you been who have you been selling these two who have you been have you had international
[00:10:09] guests have you been able to appeal to a well they're local and local tourism people are doing
[00:10:15] exactly that we've had I mean wouldn't we got the international recognition in November 2019
[00:10:25] and then of course covid hit two months later and so we kind of ground to a halt but in
[00:10:33] another way it gave us an advantage because we could prepare for when visitors started to come
[00:10:39] back again so tour operators and council people have been able to sort of get their heads around
[00:10:50] this as a as a concept they love the idea they can see the advantages of it they can understand
[00:10:58] that you know to and to see the night sky you have to stay at least one night
[00:11:03] and so that means you've ever have you know meal or accommodation and all of those other things
[00:11:09] that come with it and so there are tour of people who've set up some fantastic experiences for
[00:11:16] people one of the nicest things is that we have inside the reserve a conservation park called
[00:11:25] Nort-Nort which is an Aboriginal site that has been occupied for more than 6000 years and it has
[00:11:35] its right on the banks of the river and it has carvings in the in the cliffs which show the
[00:11:41] places of the moon and so this is a place where you can say you know the people have been observing
[00:11:48] the stars for 6000 years which is pretty impressive it is yeah and I think one of the things we've
[00:11:58] we've he is absolutely amazing and I have to admit I haven't been there yet so I'm going to have
[00:12:02] to get my wife in there but one thing we haven't sort of mentioned to people who might be listening to
[00:12:09] this from other places around the world is this is on the Murray River which is a really famous
[00:12:14] really important part of Australian culture for tens of thousands of years and yeah and and to
[00:12:22] sort of preserve that part of Australia not just during the day but during the night as well as
[00:12:27] is a fabulous feat. The interesting thing I've noticed is that the people haven't really ever
[00:12:33] thought about the the night sky as an asset they haven't actually seen it as part of the environment
[00:12:41] even so when you can talk about it as in that in that way people begin to sort of switch on they
[00:12:51] understand they get and and and that's been a wonderful thing the community support has been
[00:12:59] extraordinary we got about 80 support netters for our application to the that sky association
[00:13:07] and that included just general public progress association schools we got even a letter from
[00:13:18] Professor Brian Schmidt the Nobel Prize winner so we had a massive range of support it was
[00:13:27] a just astronomers it was a community as well that's amazing and so you talk about the impact while
[00:13:36] the actions that the council went through and helped you and and they've been supported so what
[00:13:44] did you do to engage them into that you know because you could easily often they you know you talk
[00:13:50] about reducing light and they immediately turn around as our safety concerns blah blah blah why
[00:13:56] do you think they embraced it why and was it a long process to get them on board. It wasn't actually
[00:14:03] the first meeting I had with the council person before I'd even sat down in the room they said
[00:14:12] before we start I just want you to know I think this is a fantastic idea so that was our starting point
[00:14:20] and so I think they could already see the way they were looking at it is that there are a number
[00:14:28] of communities across this area and a dozen very small towns that have basically no tourism
[00:14:38] infrastructure at all and what they could see the council could see that we've got all of these
[00:14:44] little towns that do really well along the river you know they get the Easter New Year you know the
[00:14:51] fantastic water sports all of that sort of stuff canoeing you know but the townships away from
[00:14:59] the river don't get any of that and they could see that the dark sky reserve could bring that
[00:15:06] into these tiny towns which are really dark it's one of those things because they're naturally
[00:15:14] small places and so they could see a big opportunity for those townships
[00:15:23] and as you say extend the people stay who are staying at that all going to the river and doing
[00:15:28] all those things you know you it's one of the biggest things that I talk about when I try and
[00:15:33] pitch to different places around Australia to be come dark skies that you know you do you have
[00:15:39] as you said you've immediately got an extra night you've got longer you know longer stays because
[00:15:43] people probably are sleeping in I want to have breakfast and all the rest of it so yeah that's right
[00:15:49] and also it gives people another it's another market for for people to to promote if they're running
[00:15:59] us a tourism business they add this on to I mean one of the things that's been really quite exciting
[00:16:09] you wouldn't expect this but real estate agents are now advertising but this property is inside the
[00:16:17] dark sky reserve and so it's got that sort of queued us now for even that's absolutely fabulous I'm
[00:16:28] so proud of you I just think it's amazing what you've done down there and and many ways you know
[00:16:33] I'll definitely take my hat off to you because I don't know how you've done it but there's such a
[00:16:40] a buzz down there where people are really getting involved and you know if I've seen things like
[00:16:46] limousine dark sky transport so you know you can look at the sit in the back of the car and look
[00:16:51] up the stars as you go through and I just think yeah this is great there's a real entrepreneurial
[00:16:56] spirit there there's an interest in engaging with it and yeah yeah I think of all the dark sky
[00:17:04] places in Australia which is only three you're definitely the group that have taken it and run
[00:17:11] with it and really made it a destination yeah very excited by the response I mean for example
[00:17:18] the tourism commission here decided to promote the reserve by painting a tram in Adelaide running
[00:17:30] through the city centre and had dark sky images all over the tram and that was running along
[00:17:41] around Adelaide streets for six months last year and our local school which is only I don't know
[00:17:52] 40 students perhaps the senior students and I decided when Queen Elizabeth died they wanted to go
[00:18:02] down to Adelaide to write in the memorial book that was at government house. Government House in Adelaide
[00:18:10] is on North Terrace the tram goes along North Terrace and they they were going to catch a tram
[00:18:18] and which one should show up but the dark sky tram and so these kids from the dark sky reserve
[00:18:26] got to travel on the dark sky tram and I just think that's so stunning they can see that they
[00:18:34] live somewhere special and it's right there it's in the streets of Adelaide it's a really really
[00:18:41] special thing. Something that's being celebrated so my next project is to create an arts festival
[00:18:48] and so the dark sky arts festival is my next turn because of course that's where I come
[00:18:56] yes well that would and I think that's the thing is that we need to find different ways to speak
[00:19:03] to different audiences you know we I think it's there's definitely
[00:19:11] we talk very well between each other about how we create dark sky places and the benefits of it
[00:19:17] etc but we're all singing from the same you know say pages and what we actually need to do is get
[00:19:23] out and then talk to different people and get other people involved and things like the arts
[00:19:28] would be fabulous have you seen we've seen that festival and I think it's somewhere it must be
[00:19:34] somewhere in the center of America because it's in the desert and they have all these night
[00:19:39] installations which are basically there's nothing lit up of course but you're actually using the
[00:19:45] starlight to look through the installation up to the night sky and getting the silhouette although
[00:19:49] they can't remember where it is and that's the idea we're going to do a test run this year where
[00:19:56] well I hope if we get the funding that is we're going to try a music in the dark event
[00:20:05] which is based on the anti-kithaure mechanism which I don't know if you know about
[00:20:10] no yes but you can explain it to our audience yeah it's an ancient device which predicts
[00:20:15] the movement of what the sun on the planets it was it was made more than 2,000 years ago which
[00:20:22] is absolutely astonishing and was found in a shipwreck off the coast of that small island of anti-kithaure
[00:20:30] in in the Greek islands and there's two musicians in south Australia at the Elders Conservatorium who
[00:20:42] have created a work that is based on the sort of randomness of the mechanism so that if for example
[00:20:51] Jupiter is rising on the particular night of the performance then the Jupiter part of the music
[00:20:57] will play and so on so each night the music will be different each night depending on what's in
[00:21:05] the sky you'll get a totally different experience so something like that I think would be really
[00:21:12] really stunning and we've already got it out where I'm sorry I took it to right
[00:21:19] we no no yeah there's a very boring thing in in Adelaide called the Manum to Adelaide pipeline
[00:21:27] is a it's a concrete pipeline that goes all the way from the river to Adelaide and it's been
[00:21:32] supplying water for I don't know 60 years and for about 60 years people are being saying we should
[00:21:39] really paint that thing it's really ugly and last year we managed to get some funding through
[00:21:48] the throughs essay water and it also dulex providing the paint we got to get the first
[00:21:57] Dallas guy mural painted on the on the pipeline so we've done about 500 meters but there's still a lot
[00:22:06] to go how much how many kilometers of kilometers you have to go yeah oh you've got to start somewhere
[00:22:17] amazing you're listening to dark sky conversations with Marnie on we'll be right back after these messages
[00:22:26] from our sponsors yeah what I was going to say before was tell me when you get when you have the
[00:22:36] Antikythera playing and I'll bring a group down oh yes well yes we're hoping later this year
[00:22:42] and okay we will we're hoping to actually have a replica of the Antikythera mechanism on display as well
[00:22:53] her great so it's it's exciting yeah it is and would you say you're the main driver behind
[00:23:03] this or are there now you know little groups of you doing all sorts of amazing projects
[00:23:07] well I and when I started this I didn't know I didn't even know you could measure the darkness
[00:23:14] that's I didn't didn't know anything about the scientific side of dark sky stuff I just
[00:23:21] thought it was a neat idea and I thought you know it was pretty dark but I have managed to over
[00:23:30] this time be introduced and worked with a bunch of astronomers and scientists who've been doing all
[00:23:38] of this for a very long time and proved that you know this is really astoundingly dark so I think we've
[00:23:48] sort of played off each other really well I think the astronomical society has been promoting
[00:23:56] the reserve now to its members and they've been saying it's one of the best places to see the stars
[00:24:03] that they know off so you know from that sort of scientific side it's nice to have it confirmed
[00:24:09] you know it was just an instinct in my mind and I remember talking to one of the people at the
[00:24:17] council one of the people at the at just at the front desk and she said I thought people could
[00:24:24] see the Milky Way I see it out of my back door every night doesn't everyone and you know when
[00:24:30] you say no they can't and Jayce she said well there's poor people so you know what we have is
[00:24:39] special yeah and it's going back to the comment that you made before that and I think
[00:24:47] you commented that we don't see the night sky as an asset and I think that that's partly because most
[00:24:54] of Australia you know even in Sydney you probably only have to drive a couple of hours out of Sydney
[00:25:00] to see a fairly good dark sky you know compare comparatively particularly with any of the
[00:25:07] the Northern hemisphere countries etc but we've taken it for granted and we just can't we can't
[00:25:14] let it disappear you know it's a natural resource that we are very very fortunate to have and hopefully
[00:25:23] yeah we can preserve most of it and even turn some of the bad sides backwards and like it
[00:25:29] well I've been very fortunate to to visit Taiwan my I said earlier my partner's a psychiatric nurse
[00:25:36] but she's also a textile artist and she's been teaching workshops in various places including
[00:25:44] Japan and more recently Taiwan and because I was talking to our Taiwanese friends about the dark
[00:25:52] sky reserve because that's what I do whenever I go anywhere um yeah they took us to the mountains
[00:26:00] in Taiwan they took us to a a um an open-air restaurant called Gateway to the Galaxy and that was
[00:26:11] on the top of a mountain very good low lighting and wonderful place and we saw four stars
[00:26:19] yeah it was a clear night there was no moon and then when our friends came from Taiwan here
[00:26:29] uh we took them up to our place on the river and they were literally speechless um one of them said
[00:26:36] I thought you could only see this many stars from space so that's the thing we've got this
[00:26:43] massive opportunity to teach people in look you know in in China in Asia, Japan all of those
[00:26:51] people can fly direct to Adelaide and you know in 90 minutes they can have the most extraordinary
[00:26:57] experience I've spoken to one of the tour operators who does tours just literally down the road
[00:27:05] from our property um and he um does spotlighting for you know native animals,
[00:27:12] wombats, kangaroos and so on and he makes a point every time of stopping and turning the lights off
[00:27:21] so that people can see the stars and some people burst into tears because they've never seen it
[00:27:27] they it's so completely beyond what they expect so it really is a very very special experience
[00:27:38] it is or inspiring and it is that it is I was very fortunate to hear a beautiful piece of music the
[00:27:45] other nights and the acoustics were so fabulous and we were completely immersed in this sound
[00:27:53] and it was probably the first time in my life that I literally had goosebumps and and you know
[00:27:59] the the hairs on my neck standing up and I had tears running down my face and I was thinking this is
[00:28:06] how I've seen people react to the night sky it's just a it's a completely body sensation of
[00:28:15] overtaking it's overwhelming yeah yeah yeah so that kind of explains that you know
[00:28:25] it has taken over my life I wasn't ex are you still writing scripts and things
[00:28:35] groups are you doing any movie stuff this is what the the the use work yeah all right okay yeah
[00:28:41] yeah I'm attempting to write a novel at the moment yeah so it has that's my element's in it surprise
[00:28:50] surprise yeah I think it's right it once it's a bit like taking the blue peel when the matrix isn't
[00:28:59] at all a red pill once you've done it you can't you just can't turn back from you know you want
[00:29:04] to talk to people about dark skies and the benefits and because they're so wide-reaching
[00:29:08] and they've had such fantastic yeah I've made so many wonderful connections because of it
[00:29:14] and learned so much I mean for example one of the first people I was introduced to was Andrew
[00:29:21] Cool who has been measuring that art mess in this region for 30 years he happens to have for
[00:29:31] brother-in-law he's got a property not far from where we are and he's been going there and
[00:29:36] measuring with that was um all that time I contacted the Victorian Dark Sky Association originally
[00:29:45] this is the first thing I did when I started because I didn't know anyone else to contact
[00:29:51] and they said there's two people you should talk to one is Andrew Cool and the other is Martin
[00:29:56] Lillieke Martin runs the planetarium at Morse and Lakes in Adelaide and both of them
[00:30:04] agreed uh amounts themselves well firstly they had this discussion saying who is this guy
[00:30:11] anybody ever heard of him is he an astronomer they're going no should we trust him
[00:30:17] oh well so they gave me the benefit of it uh um and I'm really glad they did
[00:30:22] and then Andrew said to me well I've got this mate Dom he's just taken up astronomy
[00:30:27] he's got a place on the router he might be able to help and I thought that doesn't sound very
[00:30:31] promising you know I'm a beginner do we need another beginner well Dom turned out to be Don
[00:30:38] Bersel who is the chief scientist of South Australia and former chief scientist he's retired now
[00:30:46] but his access and his knowledge in getting into government departments and so on
[00:30:52] and who to approach and when and all of that sort of stuff that's been really invaluable
[00:30:58] so you know getting that sort of the trust that people had given me
[00:31:04] to um to say okay well you write that you you write all the stuff we'll take all the measurements
[00:31:09] and stuff and and to well that it sounds like the perfect collaborator isn't it really you know
[00:31:18] you've got the way with the words you've you know you've got somebody there who knows government
[00:31:22] you've got someone there that knows the science and we had the come to back in of the council as well
[00:31:28] um I've spoken to to counselors and they've said to me you know when the dark sky thing comes up
[00:31:35] is the only thing we all agree on so that's fabulous yeah complete support and trust has been
[00:31:46] absolutely wonderful um and it's still going on you know one of the things that's happened is we
[00:31:53] because we have the um the space agency based in avalate um there are space industries space
[00:32:00] businesses setting up um and looking for locations for their equipment um and they need dark places
[00:32:08] they need radio silent places and we had one uh one um facility has already been built just on
[00:32:17] the boundary of the preserve um and it's a five million dollar um facility and that is going to
[00:32:25] bring in work it's going to bring in um um opportunities for local people and that's one of the things
[00:32:31] I think you know young people um at the local area school um can think of a career that's
[00:32:39] gonna keep them in the area you know they can have a scientific career if that's what they want
[00:32:44] and stay you know stay on the river they don't have to live and it might not be science
[00:32:51] at my tourism it might be cultural connection it could be all those other benefits exactly
[00:32:56] and um so those opportunities are uh are growing all the time it's very exciting
[00:33:03] home room yeah well I think on that note i'm gonna i'm gonna finish it up but I have to say you know
[00:33:12] all kudos to you and your team of supporters because not only have you created a future for
[00:33:19] you know the next generation of starwatches out out there but you know you you created Australia's
[00:33:24] first dark sky reserve in an area that was you know denuded land that the needed you know
[00:33:31] bittle tlc and you brought hot and and salt back to it so thank you very much thank you for all
[00:33:37] your hard work it's a lot um uh yeah i i am very proud of it um but um I think seeing your example
[00:33:47] knowing it was possible that was something that uh helped a lot to um say
[00:33:55] how we could go about it you know the things that we still needed to do
[00:34:01] um and make a really good case um but i think we've managed yeah
[00:34:07] and i just can't wait for the day that we've got this network of dark sky places all around
[00:34:12] the country and that we can well my long term plan is to make south australia or dark sky state
[00:34:21] sounds like you'll have a done next week Chris
[00:34:27] have to finish the novel first yeah yeah oh good luck to you i don't doubt
[00:34:34] you did a great shape or form you'll have that under your belt
[00:34:37] thanks for spending so good to see you again thanks again for your time