Challenger Remembrance, Australian of the Year, and the Mystery of Massive Moons
In this poignant episode of Space Nuts , hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson reflect on the 40th anniversary of the Challenger space shuttle disaster, sharing their memories and insights about this tragic event. They also celebrate the announcement of the Australian of the Year and delve into intriguing discussions about the definition of moons and the rapid growth of black holes.
Episode Highlights:
- Challenger Space Shuttle Disaster: Andrew and Fred discuss the Challenger disaster of 1986, revisiting the events leading to the tragic explosion and the lessons learned from this pivotal moment in space history. They reflect on the human cost and the impact it had on the space program.
- Australian of the Year: The hosts celebrate the recognition of Catherine Bennell Pegg, an Australian astronaut and Director of Space Technology at the Australian Space Agency, as the Australian of the Year. They discuss her contributions to space science and her role in inspiring future generations.
- Defining a Moon: Andrew and Fred explore a recent study that challenges our understanding of what constitutes a moon. They discuss the discovery of a massive potential moon orbiting a gas giant and the implications for our definitions in astronomy.
- The Rapid Growth of Black Holes: The episode concludes with a fascinating examination of how black holes can grow rapidly in chaotic conditions, as discussed in recent research. The hosts analyze the findings and what they mean for our understanding of the universe.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/31421706?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Hi there. Thanks for joining us on Space
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space
00:00:04 --> 00:00:07 science uh twice a week, in fact. And
00:00:07 --> 00:00:10 I'm glad you could join us yet again. Uh
00:00:10 --> 00:00:14 today's episode has some uh great news,
00:00:14 --> 00:00:18 but also a bit of a sad reflection. It's
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 40 years since the Challenger space
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23 shuttle disaster. Can you believe that?
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 40 years. Of course, some of you
00:00:25 --> 00:00:27 listening to us
00:00:27 --> 00:00:29 won't remember it because you're 40. Uh
00:00:29 --> 00:00:31 but uh for those of us who are a few
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 years older, it is um a very very strong
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 memory. We'll uh talk about that. On a
00:00:37 --> 00:00:39 happier note, we will reveal the
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 Australian of the year. I think most
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 Australians will know who that is. Uh
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 how do you define a moon? That question
00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 has come up because of a potential
00:00:48 --> 00:00:52 discovery. And they think they know why
00:00:52 --> 00:00:56 black holes are getting big fast. We'll
00:00:56 --> 00:00:58 talk about all of that on this episode
00:00:58 --> 00:00:59 of Space Nuts.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:04 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 Ignition sequence start.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:07 >> Space Nuts.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:12 >> 5 4 3 2 1 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:01:12 --> 00:01:13 >> Space Nuts.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 >> Joining us as always is his good self,
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at
00:01:20 --> 00:01:21 large. Hello, Fred.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 >> Hello. It's good to be good. It is good
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 to be good. It's good to see you.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:28 >> It's good to be in a cool room because
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 it's not cool in our part of the world
00:01:31 --> 00:01:32 at the moment. We're right in the middle
00:01:32 --> 00:01:37 of a week long uh run of 40 plus Celsius
00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 temperatures. Uh we we've uh broken our
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 uh record in in do for the hottest day
00:01:44 --> 00:01:48 in January and that was 461
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 I think we had uh on Monday on Australia
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 Day which um yeah it was dreadful. I
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 mean it was just horrific. Um so yeah
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 it's it's been a pretty rough week. U my
00:01:59 --> 00:02:01 plants are suffering. There's nothing I
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 can do about it and I think we're going
00:02:04 --> 00:02:06 to lose a few. know unfortunately that's
00:02:06 --> 00:02:09 the way it goes. Um I suppose that's
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 what happens when they plant plants in
00:02:11 --> 00:02:13 an environment like this that um don't
00:02:13 --> 00:02:17 come from here. They struggle. But uh
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 yes, all all is well with you. Uh yeah,
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 our plants uh pretty well are all
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 natives uh in Man's Garden, so they they
00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 don't seem to mind, but we've got um
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 much more modest temperatures than you
00:02:30 --> 00:02:31 have here on the coast.
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 >> Probably about 10° cooler, I imagine.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 Uh, it's not quite that, but not far
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 off. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, no, it's more
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 like 20 at the moment. 20°. Yeah, we're
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 down at um, but it's forecast to be 29
00:02:45 --> 00:02:45 today. So,
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 >> yeah, we're going to get to 41, I think,
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 today. So, I think we're already pushing
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 towards 30 as I speak, and it's only
00:02:53 --> 00:02:56 what, 9:30 in the morning local time.
00:02:56 --> 00:02:58 So,
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 um, we got a lot to talk about, so we
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 better get stuck into it. Uh the first
00:03:01 --> 00:03:05 thing is uh something that um I I don't
00:03:05 --> 00:03:07 think anyone who was around at the time
00:03:07 --> 00:03:11 will ever forget. I'm talking about the
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 Challenger space shuttle launch uh in
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 and this is basically what happened.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:26 >> T-minus 15 seconds
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 9.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:36 We have main engine start. 4 3 2 1 and
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 liftoff. Liftoff of the 25th space
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41 shuttle mission. And it has cleared the
00:03:41 --> 00:03:50 tower.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 >> Good. Roll program confirmed.
00:03:53 --> 00:04:03 >> Challenger now heading down range.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 Engine's beginning throttling down now
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 at 94%.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 Normal throttles uh for most of the
00:04:09 --> 00:04:13 flight 104%.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:19 We'll throttle down to uh 65% shortly.
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 Engines at 65%. Three engines running
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 normally. Three good fuel cells. Three
00:04:24 --> 00:04:28 good APUs.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:31 Velocity 2257 ft per second. Altitude
00:04:31 --> 00:04:33 4.3 nautical miles. Downrange distance 3
00:04:33 --> 00:04:39 nautical miles.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:41 >> Engines throttling up. Three engines now
00:04:41 --> 00:04:42 at 104%.
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 >> Challenger go at throttle up.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:50 >> Go throttle up.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 >> 1 minute 15 seconds. Velocity 2900 ft
00:04:53 --> 00:04:55 per second. Altitude 9 nautical miles.
00:04:55 --> 00:05:27 Down range distance 7 nautical mile.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:28 Flight controllers here looking very
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 carefully at the situation.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:38 Obviously a major malfunction.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:49 We have no down link.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 We have a report from the flight
00:05:50 --> 00:05:52 dynamics officer that the vehicle has
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 exploded. Flight director confirms that.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 We are looking at uh checking with the
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 recovery forces to see what can be done
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 at this point.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 >> And there it is. That was the launch of
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 Challenger in 1986
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 uh in real time. Uh and we heard the
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 final words of uh the commander Dick
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 Scobby when he said, "Roger, going with
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 throttle up." And that was basically
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 where it all went horribly wrong, Fred.
00:06:21 --> 00:06:25 Uh the um cause of the accident was
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 ultimately blamed on the O-rings. the
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 the O-rings joined each section of the
00:06:31 --> 00:06:35 solid rocket boosters and there were
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 several of them, but one of them had a
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 catastrophic failure and the um uh the
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 vehicle exploded as a consequence of of
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 that failure. And we all saw it, we all
00:06:46 --> 00:06:52 watched it. Um it was it was horrifying.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:53 Uh indeed it was. I remember it very
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 well too, of course. Um so yeah it was
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 um nothing to do with the throttling up
00:06:58 --> 00:06:59 that that was just
00:06:59 --> 00:07:01 >> that was just to get it going. Yeah that
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 >> and
00:07:04 --> 00:07:06 um the throttle back for the um maximum
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 dynamic pressure uh region where when
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 you've got the biggest aerodynamic
00:07:11 --> 00:07:13 forces you throttle back for that and
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 then throttle up again. Um and so it was
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 eventually determined that uh what had
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 happened was that the temperature on one
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 side of the shuttle uh it was a cold
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 morning. It was a winter morning 28th of
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 January. two degrees I think or
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 >> it was two degrees above zero ambient
00:07:31 --> 00:07:34 when they launched but one of the one
00:07:34 --> 00:07:36 side of the throttle sorry the shuttle
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 and its boosters were still at minus2
00:07:39 --> 00:07:43 and at those temperatures um those
00:07:43 --> 00:07:46 O-rings become effectively uh
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 non-pliable. They they don't you know
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 they're not flexible. Uh and so that's
00:07:51 --> 00:07:53 what allowed the fact that it was not
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 behaving properly allowed gas to escape
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 from that joint is exactly as you've
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 said there are there are four sections
00:07:59 --> 00:08:02 to the shuttle booster each sealed by
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 O-rings and it was the the lower one um
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 where combustion was at its extreme. Uh
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 it meant the gases came through and in
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 fact there is footage that shows exactly
00:08:13 --> 00:08:16 that uh with these hot gases playing on
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 the main fuel tank. um the the you know
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20 the external fuel tank of the shuttle.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:21 So
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 >> it was uh very much their fate was
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 sealed even before launch basically and
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 >> there were people at the company who
00:08:29 --> 00:08:31 built the boosters Morton Fire call who
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 knew that and they were overridden in
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 their warnings that this was likely to
00:08:36 --> 00:08:37 be dangerous.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:39 >> They they raised concerns a long time
00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 before this happened. In fact, they'd uh
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 they'd discovered damage in the O-rings
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 from previous missions.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:50 And even the night before the launch,
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 they held a meeting to say, "We don't
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 think you've got to scrub the launch.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 It's not it's not safe. Something, you
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 know, something dreadful could happen."
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 >> And I think the the different the factor
00:09:02 --> 00:09:04 that made the difference, as you said,
00:09:04 --> 00:09:07 was the temperature that morning. Um
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 because previous flights were warmer. It
00:09:11 --> 00:09:11 was warmer.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 >> Yeah. I think 12 degrees was the lowest
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 they'd ever launched at and it was two
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 that morning as you said.
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 >> Um and one of the reasons for the for
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 the reluctance to scrub the mission may
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28 have been the fact that we did have this
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 teacher uh on board. Yeah. Christina
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 McAuliff, that's her name, I think.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 um she uh was a school teacher, not an
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 astronaut. Uh she'd engaged many many
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 schools across across this the the
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 country. So huge numbers of people were
00:09:46 --> 00:09:49 were watching and NASA had done that
00:09:49 --> 00:09:51 purposely I think to sort of inject some
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 more interest into the shuttle program
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 because they'd had 25 successful
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 launches and it was becoming
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 >> basically routine. Um you know very
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 people were blas about it. uh but just
00:10:03 --> 00:10:07 to also confirm that there were a
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 further 87 successful shuttle launches
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 after that. So the problems were fixed
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 and uh the lessons were learned. Um it
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 was a tragedy of course a human tragedy
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 with the loss of life. Uh I I noticed
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 something yesterday that blew me away
00:10:23 --> 00:10:28 Andrew. Um there are 17 astronauts were
00:10:28 --> 00:10:33 lost uh in NASA programs. the three um
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 Apollo ast one astronauts who died in
00:10:36 --> 00:10:40 the fire on the ground of the Apollo one
00:10:40 --> 00:10:44 capsule. That was on the uh 27th of
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 January 1967.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:47 >> Yes.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 >> The uh Colombia disaster uh when um
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 re-entry was basically turned into a uh
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 you know a disintegration because of uh
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 damage to the to the shuttle wing. That
00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 was on, wasn't it?
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 >> That's correct. That was on the 1st of
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 February, 2003. So these losses of life
00:11:08 --> 00:11:12 were all within a week of each other in
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 anniversary times. It was quite amazing.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 So yes, the the Challenger disaster uh
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 59 years before the day before we'd lost
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 the Apollo one crew and uh it's um it's
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 a coincidence, but it's a spooky one.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 >> It is very spooky. I I remember where I
00:11:31 --> 00:11:33 was when the news broke. I'd just got in
00:11:33 --> 00:11:38 my car and um I naturally had the radio
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 on being someone who worked in the
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 industry and uh the news came on as I
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 was backing the car out and I just
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 stopped in my tracks and I just shook. I
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 couldn't believe it. M
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 >> um and and what really haunts me is that
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 only a week before I'd been talking to
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 my future sister-in-law who was still in
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 high school at the time and she brought
00:12:00 --> 00:12:01 it up with me about the space shuttle
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 program and I said what worries me is
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 something horribly wrong is going to
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 happen. Yeah. Uh I I think I think
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 they're actually being too gung-ho.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 those that's what I said to her and I
00:12:16 --> 00:12:17 couldn't believe less you know about a
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 week later this happened.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:21 >> Well, you were right in in a way that's
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 sort of what what led to it. Yeah.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh but the same thing uh as
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 you mentioned with the the loss of
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 interest in the space shuttle program
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 from the public perspective. Uh the same
00:12:33 --> 00:12:35 thing happened with Apollo.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:36 >> Like they were supposed to they were
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 supposed to have more missions but they
00:12:38 --> 00:12:40 just went no one's interested anymore.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:42 So they stopped at 17.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:43 >> Um that's quite right
00:12:44 --> 00:12:48 >> and and I I suppose these days space
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 travel has just become routine. There
00:12:50 --> 00:12:51 are missions going up and down all the
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 time we never hear about because it's
00:12:54 --> 00:12:58 just it's so very regular now. And and
00:12:58 --> 00:12:59 when you bring in the private sector on
00:13:00 --> 00:13:01 top of that, there's launches every
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 other day. It's it's just happening.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:05 And and it was always going to go that
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 way, I suppose. Uh but you you've got to
00:13:08 --> 00:13:11 um you've got to spare a thought for the
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 pioneers that sacrificed their lives to
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 make all this possible because without
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 them it it just would never have got to
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 the point it is now. And I think we've
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 said it before, you you go back to the
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 history of flight and we got to the moon
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28 in less than a 100red years of the first
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 flight by a human being in a in a um
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33 purpose-built
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 uh aircraft. It's just extraordinary to
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 to think that we we could have leapt so
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 far so fast and I suppose when you do
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 that there is a price and this was one
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 of the one of the costs of of space
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 travel and aeronautics and yeah it was
00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 very sad day and um one I will never
00:13:52 --> 00:13:54 forget red
00:13:54 --> 00:13:57 >> uh we will leave challenger there um to
00:13:57 --> 00:14:01 some happier news and of course uh the
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 other day we celebrated Australia day in
00:14:04 --> 00:14:08 this country 26th of January and every
00:14:08 --> 00:14:12 year we uh have the announcement of the
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 Australian of the year. Now quite often
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 it's a sports star [laughter] that
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 usually usually happens. Uh although in
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 recent years they've been focusing more
00:14:21 --> 00:14:23 on the academic side of things or the
00:14:23 --> 00:14:25 the medical side of things which is
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 which is good. This year though uh you
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 must be really pleased. It is an
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 Australian astronaut.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 >> Uh absolutely delighted. Yeah. Really
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 thrilled about that. She's um she's an
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 an [clears throat] astronaut who uh has
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 been qualified under ISA's program,
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 astronaut program, Europe uh the
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 European Space Agency. She hasn't flown
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 yet. Uh there's every chance that she
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 will that she will fly to the space
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 station uh and fulfill a mission.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 Katherine Benel Peg is her name. I
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 discovered um yesterday I was looking at
00:14:58 --> 00:15:02 dates yesterday obviously um she is one
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 day short of 40 years younger than me
00:15:05 --> 00:15:05 was
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 >> but her birthday is the day after mine
00:15:08 --> 00:15:10 uh so that's that's that's a
00:15:10 --> 00:15:13 non-coincidence but um not not only an
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 astronaut but she is also director of
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17 space technology at this the Australian
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 space agency which was um very much um
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 close to my heart in the work that I did
00:15:23 --> 00:15:24 for the government the Australian space
00:15:24 --> 00:15:25 agency
00:15:26 --> 00:15:27 a sister organization within the
00:15:27 --> 00:15:28 department of industry science and
00:15:28 --> 00:15:31 resources where I worked. So, a lot of
00:15:31 --> 00:15:35 friends there. Um, and Katherine uh is
00:15:35 --> 00:15:39 absolutely welldeserved recipient of the
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 annual Australian of the Year award and
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 she'll do great things with it. She
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 wants to be um very much a STEM
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 ambassador as well for public educ for
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 education uh for science technology
00:15:52 --> 00:15:53 education. She'll do a great job. She's
00:15:54 --> 00:15:55 a lovely person.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:59 >> Yes. Um she comes across that way and
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 I I think the interest in space science
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 is starting to really uh grow from
00:16:05 --> 00:16:08 strength to strength and uh she she will
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 do a a wonderful job in that regard and
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 and maybe inspire other Australians to
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 follow in her footsteps. And now that we
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 have our own space agency, we certainly
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 want that, don't we?
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 >> Very much so. Yes. The Australian Space
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 Agency was uh formed in 2018. It's um
00:16:26 --> 00:16:29 still going strong. A lot of its uh
00:16:29 --> 00:16:31 functions are regulatory. It's all about
00:16:31 --> 00:16:32 regulating launches and things of that
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 sort. Um but also promoting startups and
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 uh things of that sort to encourage the
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 space industry here in Australia, which
00:16:40 --> 00:16:41 was why it was set up in the first
00:16:41 --> 00:16:42 place.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:42 >> Yeah.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 >> Katherine Katherine's a great um you
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 know, a great cheerleader for that. It's
00:16:46 --> 00:16:46 brilliant.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 >> Yep. She's got a busy year ahead of her
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 now because her her Australian of the
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 Year duties will be on top of what she
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 has to do for her regular gig. So, uh,
00:16:55 --> 00:16:57 she'll be doing a lot more travel, a lot
00:16:57 --> 00:16:59 more speaking, a lot more engagements.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01 Uh, it it's a big job when you're named
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 Australian of the Year, so I'm told.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:05 [laughter]
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07 Well, you never know, Andrew. One day,
00:17:07 --> 00:17:09 one day.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 >> Uh, look, I'd be I'd be lucky be to be
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 named, you know, my street member of the
00:17:15 --> 00:17:16 year.
00:17:16 --> 00:17:17 >> [laughter]
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 >> Not a big street either, but uh no, good
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 luck to her and congratulations to
00:17:22 --> 00:17:26 Katherine Benell Peg. This is Space Nuts
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 with Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred
00:17:28 --> 00:17:32 Watson.
00:17:32 --> 00:17:33 >> Okay, we've had a problem here.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 >> This is Houston. Say again, please.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 >> Houston, we've had a problem. We've had
00:17:37 --> 00:17:41 a main rot. Okay, stand by 13. We're
00:17:41 --> 00:17:41 looking at it.
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 >> Space, do you like that, Fred? got some
00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 new links.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47 >> I had a bit of time up my sleeve, so I
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 um created some new stuff.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 >> That's a very appropriate one as well.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 >> Yes, I thought so, too.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:53 >> Yeah.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 >> Uh now, uh our next story is about
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 defining what is a moon. This is come
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 about after
00:18:02 --> 00:18:07 a study had been published um which is a
00:18:07 --> 00:18:10 um peer reviewed paper in the archive.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 Um, it's it's looking at a a a really
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15 big gas giant, but they think it's got a
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 moon that could force us to redefine
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20 what a moon is.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22 >> Is that is that the way it goes?
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 >> Well, yeah, because it's big. Um, that's
00:18:24 --> 00:18:25 right.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:27 >> I got that impression.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:32 >> Yeah. So um this is uh work uh that's
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 been done uh uh actually led from the
00:18:34 --> 00:18:38 University of Cambridge uh using uh a
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 thing called an interferometer which is
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 one of these things that that brings
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 light waves together and watches them
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 cancel out and by um doing that
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49 carefully enough you can learn a lot
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 more than you otherwise could. Uh and
00:18:51 --> 00:18:53 there is an intererometer which is
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 called gravity. uh good name for it
00:18:56 --> 00:18:58 because uh that's one of its tasks was
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 to um kind of look at the look at the
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 gravitational forces around black holes
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 which done very successfully around the
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 black hole at the center of our galaxy.
00:19:07 --> 00:19:09 It's on the very large telescope in
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 Chile and it's a way of you you will
00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 know and some of your listeners sorry
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 some of our listeners will remember uh
00:19:16 --> 00:19:17 that the very large telescope is
00:19:17 --> 00:19:21 actually four uh 8.2 2 meter telescopes
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 which can be used together uh along with
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 um some auxiliary telescopes as well and
00:19:26 --> 00:19:30 that's uh they're used together in the
00:19:30 --> 00:19:32 science of interpherometry which lets
00:19:32 --> 00:19:37 you uh look at um objects in space in
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 very great detail and and in particular
00:19:40 --> 00:19:42 uh the scientists have been watching the
00:19:42 --> 00:19:48 orbit of a gas giant uh uh exoplanet
00:19:48 --> 00:19:52 which has the lovely name of HD 206893b.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 It's 133 light years from our solar
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 system as the crow flies. Um, but what
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 they've done is they've watched the
00:20:00 --> 00:20:04 motion of this gas giant. Uh, as it
00:20:04 --> 00:20:06 orbits around its parent star, which is
00:20:06 --> 00:20:10 HD 206893 itself. The B refers at the
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 end of that refers to the gas giant
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 planet itself. But what they've seen is
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 that the orbit of this giant planet is
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 wobbling slightly as it goes around. Uh
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 little um you know deviations from a
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 perfect ellipse which are interpreted uh
00:20:28 --> 00:20:33 as being due to a moon. And by knowing
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 the knowing the mass of the or
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 estimating the mass of the planet itself
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41 um you can estimate the mass of this
00:20:41 --> 00:20:46 moon and it's it's enormous. Uh it's um
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 many times the mass uh if I remember
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 rightly something like nine times the
00:20:51 --> 00:20:54 mass of Neptune, 40% of the mass of
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 Jupiter. Uh and you know when you
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 compare that with the moons in our solar
00:20:59 --> 00:21:01 system it's [clears throat] much much
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03 heavier than anything or much much
00:21:03 --> 00:21:05 massier mass more massive than anything
00:21:05 --> 00:21:06 we've got.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:09 >> Uh so that
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 leads to the question well you know if
00:21:11 --> 00:21:12 you've got something that's nine times
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 the mass of Neptune could you ever call
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 it a moon? Uh but the normal definition
00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 of a moon or technically a satellite is
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 something that is in orbit around an
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 object that is in orbit around a star.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 In other words, a planet. Um, so do we
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 want to bend that definition or are we
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 just content for this thing to be the
00:21:32 --> 00:21:34 most massive moon known?
00:21:34 --> 00:21:38 >> Well, where do you draw the line?
00:21:38 --> 00:21:39 You know, if the definition is a
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 satellite orbiting at a an object
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 orbiting a star, then that's it.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:46 Shouldn't matter how big it is, should
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 it?
00:21:48 --> 00:21:49 >> Uh, no. That's right. That that would be
00:21:49 --> 00:21:53 my view. uh that you you you keep the um
00:21:53 --> 00:21:56 >> you keep the basically keep the uh
00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 definition as it stands. Uh what you do
00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 is you just extend your range of uh
00:22:02 --> 00:22:07 expectance expectancy in terms of uh the
00:22:07 --> 00:22:12 size of these objects. Um there's a in
00:22:12 --> 00:22:13 fact there's a lovely comment there's
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 several comments from the lead author.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:17 Uh I'm looking just to say where we're
00:22:17 --> 00:22:18 looking. We're looking at Daily Galaxy
00:22:18 --> 00:22:21 for this report, but it's a paper uh
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23 that's been published I think in monthly
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25 notices again or one of the leading
00:22:25 --> 00:22:30 journals anyway. Um and the uh you know
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 the the quotation from Quinton Kra who's
00:22:33 --> 00:22:34 one of the authors I think the lead
00:22:34 --> 00:22:39 author of this paper um uh some nice
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 quotes. What we what we found is that HD
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43 206893b
00:22:43 --> 00:22:44 doesn't just follow a smooth orbit
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 around its star. On top of that motion,
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 it shows a small but measurable back and
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 forth wubble. The wobble has a period of
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 9 months and a size comparable to the
00:22:53 --> 00:22:56 Earth Moon distance. This kind of signal
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 is exactly what you'd expect if the
00:22:57 --> 00:22:59 object were being tugged by an unseen
00:22:59 --> 00:23:02 companion such as a large moon, making
00:23:02 --> 00:23:04 this system a particularly intriguing
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 candidate for hosting an exomoon.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:14 um and goes on to say um uh this raises
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 the question because of the mass of this
00:23:16 --> 00:23:17 moon. This naturally raises the question
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 of whether such an object should even be
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 called a moon. At these masses, the
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 distinction between a massive moon and a
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 very low mass companion becomes blurred.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29 However, there is currently no
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31 definition of an exomoon. And in
00:23:31 --> 00:23:33 practice, astronomers generally
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 generally refer to any object orbiting a
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 planet or substellar companion as a
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 moon. So that's the bottom line.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 >> Um there are not many known and that's
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 because moons naturally are generally
00:23:46 --> 00:23:50 small and so their effect on their on
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 the planet around which they're orbiting
00:23:52 --> 00:23:56 is too small to to to uh discover.
00:23:56 --> 00:23:59 Whereas uh this thing is so big that its
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 signal is really quite uh quite
00:24:02 --> 00:24:05 impressive. It's it's uh sufficient for
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 the for this this team to to to give us
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 the the paper that that we're talking
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 about. And just one final quote uh from
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14 Kra. It's important to keep in mind that
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 we're likely only seeing the tip of the
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 iceberg. Just as the first exoplanets
00:24:19 --> 00:24:20 discovered were the most massive ones
00:24:20 --> 00:24:22 orbiting very close to their stars
00:24:22 --> 00:24:24 simply because they were the easiest to
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 detect. The first exom moons we identify
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 are expected to be the most massive and
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 extreme examples. It's a really good
00:24:31 --> 00:24:31 point.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:34 >> And there it is. And and yet again, we
00:24:34 --> 00:24:39 find in a potential new discovery that
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41 it's not what we would expect to be the
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 norm. This this is another thing that we
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 may not have anticipated.
00:24:48 --> 00:24:53 >> Uh that's that's right. Um so yes. So, I
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 mean, it's the point is well made, uh,
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 Quent's point is well made that the uh
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 the the that you're going to find the
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 the real outliers first because they're
00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 the easiest ones to find. Uh, but at the
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 same time, what you've said is true. Uh,
00:25:09 --> 00:25:10 the outliers are sometimes so
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12 surprising, but they're difficult to
00:25:12 --> 00:25:15 believe. Uh but we've got a um yeah,
00:25:15 --> 00:25:16 we've got an outlier here that might
00:25:16 --> 00:25:19 well be the first of a new breed of uh
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22 or a whole new regime of exom moon
00:25:22 --> 00:25:23 discoveries.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 >> Yeah, I I didn't even think about
00:25:25 --> 00:25:27 exomoons. Like we've discovered so many
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 exoplanets now and we continue to do so,
00:25:30 --> 00:25:32 but we we haven't actually laid our eyes
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 on a on an exomoon yet.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37 >> No. Um and in fact, we've not laid our
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39 eyes on most of the exoplanets. We've
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 inferred their presence uh by indirect
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 means. there are one or two uh that we
00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 we can observe directly. Uh but when you
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49 think yes, moons are always going to be
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 smaller than their parent planets, um
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 that means that uh we're we're still
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 pushing the limits of what is
00:25:58 --> 00:26:01 technically possible to to detect.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 >> Could we maybe redefine this discovery
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 as like a dual planet?
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 it. So there is a definition of a dual
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 planet uh what we what we call a binary
00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 planet uh which is uh if you have two
00:26:16 --> 00:26:19 objects one orbiting the other if their
00:26:19 --> 00:26:21 center of gravity or what we call the
00:26:21 --> 00:26:23 baris center is outside the body of
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 either of them then it's a binary planet
00:26:26 --> 00:26:31 rather than a planet and a moon uh and
00:26:31 --> 00:26:35 in fact uh Jupiter sorry Pluto and its
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 moon kum um fit that bill. Pluto, of
00:26:38 --> 00:26:40 course, is a dwarf planet, but Pluto and
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 Karen are probably a binary dwarf planet
00:26:42 --> 00:26:43 for that for that reason.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:47 >> Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So, um there'll
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 be more work to find out exactly what
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 the situation is here cuz they it's only
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 suspicion at the moment, isn't it? That
00:26:56 --> 00:26:58 >> That's right. There'll be there will be
00:26:58 --> 00:27:00 more observations to to confirm that
00:27:00 --> 00:27:03 this uh this uh that you know the planet
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05 itself behaves in a way that is
00:27:05 --> 00:27:07 consistent with this large hypo
00:27:07 --> 00:27:09 hypothesized moon. We haven't seen it.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:11 We haven't seen it yet. In fact, we
00:27:11 --> 00:27:13 haven't seen the planet either. But uh
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 we can we can deduce things from you
00:27:16 --> 00:27:17 know from from the way the orbits
00:27:17 --> 00:27:18 behave.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:20 >> Yes indeed. If you'd like to read about
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 that, the study's been published on the
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 archive and it has been accepted for
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 publication in astronomy and
00:27:26 --> 00:27:27 astrophysics.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 You can also read about it on the daily
00:27:30 --> 00:27:31 galaxy.com
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 uh website. This is Space Nuts with
00:27:34 --> 00:27:42 Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 Base here. The angle has landed.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 >> Space nets. Speaking of uh big planets
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 with big moons, what about big black
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 holes? Uh and the fact that they get big
00:27:53 --> 00:27:56 fast. We have always been mystified by
00:27:56 --> 00:28:00 this phenomenon, but uh have they solved
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01 it, Fred?
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 >> Uh certainly some work that looks as
00:28:03 --> 00:28:04 though it's pointing in the right
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06 direction. Yeah, this comes about really
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 be and it's an issue that has only
00:28:10 --> 00:28:11 arisen in the era of the James Web Space
00:28:11 --> 00:28:15 Telescope when which has detected
00:28:15 --> 00:28:18 um the evidence for super massive black
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21 holes very very early in the universe
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 until the web came along. We all thought
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 that super massive black holes evolved
00:28:26 --> 00:28:28 over time scales comparable with the age
00:28:28 --> 00:28:29 of the universe that you started off
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 with small black holes and as time went
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 on you know billions of years passing
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 until we get to the universe's current
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 age of 13.8 billion years uh that they
00:28:40 --> 00:28:43 gradually grew bigger to to form the
00:28:43 --> 00:28:44 super massive black holes that we see in
00:28:44 --> 00:28:46 today's universe. But when you look
00:28:46 --> 00:28:48 further back further out into space as
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 the web has done, you're looking further
00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 back in time. We're now seeing within a
00:28:52 --> 00:28:53 few hundred million years of the big
00:28:54 --> 00:28:55 bang itself and we find these super
00:28:56 --> 00:28:59 massive black holes already there. U and
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 that's the puzzle. That's the conundrum.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 How did they get so big so rapidly?
00:29:04 --> 00:29:08 >> Uh and the so they they went to
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10 McDonald's. That's what they did.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 [laughter]
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 >> Uh the McDonald's of the early universe.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:16 Yes. Uh, there must be a must be a name
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 for that. Um, [laughter]
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 >> fast food. That's what it's
00:29:21 --> 00:29:22 >> It's a fast food. Yeah. And I was going
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 to work on drive-thru somehow, but that
00:29:24 --> 00:29:26 doesn't scan quite the same way as fast
00:29:26 --> 00:29:29 food does. It is fast food. That's
00:29:29 --> 00:29:32 exactly in fact that sums up the the the
00:29:32 --> 00:29:33 research paper by this team of
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35 scientists who are actually based in
00:29:35 --> 00:29:38 Ireland. Uh, it's sums up their work
00:29:38 --> 00:29:42 very very succinctly. So the issue is uh
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 that
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 as we as the you know so what we've got
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 is this observations set of observations
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 tells us that black holes got super
00:29:52 --> 00:29:56 massive very quickly and that's a puzzle
00:29:56 --> 00:30:00 for the theoretical astronomers who work
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 out how galaxies work, how galaxies
00:30:02 --> 00:30:06 form, how black holes form and and all
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08 of that great stuff in the early
00:30:08 --> 00:30:12 universe. And what um has been the point
00:30:12 --> 00:30:16 that they've struggled with is that if a
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19 black hole starts eating
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 m the surrounding material, which is how
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 they grow, the gas and dust that
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26 surrounds them, if they start eating
00:30:26 --> 00:30:29 that too quickly, in other words,
00:30:29 --> 00:30:30 quickly enough to grow into a super
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 massive black hole very quickly, what
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35 happens is they um the radiation
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 generated by this swirling mass of stuff
00:30:38 --> 00:30:42 getting sucked in actually stops the
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 process. It it quenches the process of
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 uh of accretion and the black holes
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51 growing. That's the way the theory has
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54 uh appeared so far. Mhm.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 >> But what the Irish astronomers have done
00:30:57 --> 00:31:02 is um they've looked at the sort of
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05 general turbulence of the gas in the
00:31:05 --> 00:31:10 early universe uh as a background to the
00:31:10 --> 00:31:14 the the feeding black hole. And it turns
00:31:14 --> 00:31:19 out that if the universe is um a lot
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 more uh chaotic, turbulent, very violent
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 motions in the background gas, if you've
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 got a black hole in a in an environment
00:31:29 --> 00:31:32 like that, um it turns out that they can
00:31:32 --> 00:31:37 actually uh absorb huge amounts of gas
00:31:37 --> 00:31:40 and so they can grow much faster than we
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 originally thought. Uh so um one of the
00:31:43 --> 00:31:47 authors uh of this paper uh there's a
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 quote here um this is Scitec Daily that
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 is carrying this story but uh the the
00:31:53 --> 00:31:54 researchers in one of the research
00:31:54 --> 00:31:56 papers this is one of the authors saying
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 we found that the chaotic conditions
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 that existed in the early universe
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 triggered early smaller black holes to
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 grow into the super massive black holes
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 we see later following a feeding frenzy
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 which devoured all the material material
00:32:11 --> 00:32:13 around them. We revealed using
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 state-of-the-art computer simulations
00:32:16 --> 00:32:17 that the first generation of black
00:32:17 --> 00:32:19 holes, those born just a few hundred
00:32:19 --> 00:32:21 million years after the Big Bang, grew
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 incredibly fast into tens of thousands
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 of times the size of our sun. Uh, and
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 another comment another uh from one of
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32 the other team members, this
00:32:32 --> 00:32:34 breakthrough unlocks one of astronomy's
00:32:34 --> 00:32:36 big puzzles, that being how black holes
00:32:36 --> 00:32:38 born in the early universe are observed
00:32:38 --> 00:32:41 by the James Web Space Telescope. uh as
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 observed by the James Web Space
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 Telescope managed to reach such super
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 massive sizes so quickly. So maybe
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 that's the answer to the puzzle, Andrew.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:54 >> Yeah, they ate too much too fast.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:56 >> That's right. Fast food
00:32:56 --> 00:32:58 >> and then they get indigestion and then
00:32:58 --> 00:32:59 they have those you know
00:32:59 --> 00:33:01 >> Well, I think that was the problem
00:33:01 --> 00:33:03 before uh that you know they got
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05 indigestion and so they stop the
00:33:05 --> 00:33:05 process.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 >> Yeah. Uh but what these these authors
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 are saying is that uh if you put them in
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 a really turbulent um you know field of
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17 gas that which we think was in the early
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20 universe then things change you you they
00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 don't get indigestion. They just go for
00:33:22 --> 00:33:24 it. They just eat and eat.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 >> Don't don't notice that they're full.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:27 >> That's right.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30 >> And keep eating like a goldfish. That's
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 goldfish have that problem.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 >> That's why that's why they're so blobby
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 looking. No. to stop eating.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 >> No, they don't. No, apparently it's
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 >> cuz they can't remember when they
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 started eating. I guess [laughter]
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 >> I I don't believe that theory that
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 goldfish only have a threeminute memory
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 because I used to keep goldfish and they
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 knew who fed them
00:33:51 --> 00:33:52 >> because they always reacted when you
00:33:52 --> 00:33:53 went near the the tank.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:54 >> Yeah.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:56 >> The time to be time for food. Time for
00:33:56 --> 00:33:59 food. They're like dogs except you can't
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01 take them for a walk. They tend to buy.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:02 Nice.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:03 [laughter]
00:34:03 --> 00:34:06 >> Got to take the bowl with the milk
00:34:06 --> 00:34:08 >> as well if you That's right. Exactly.
00:34:08 --> 00:34:10 You put them in a dog bowl, fill it with
00:34:10 --> 00:34:12 water. No, let's not go there.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:15 >> Uh but that's a fascinating story and uh
00:34:15 --> 00:34:17 another one that will probably be
00:34:17 --> 00:34:20 subject to future uh analysis, I
00:34:20 --> 00:34:20 imagine.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 >> Yeah, that's right.
00:34:22 --> 00:34:23 >> If you'd like to read about it, as Fred
00:34:23 --> 00:34:25 said, it's incitedaily.com or you can
00:34:26 --> 00:34:28 read the entire paper start to finish if
00:34:28 --> 00:34:30 you're having trouble falling asleep.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 And that's in nature astronomy. Oh dear.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:35 Um, we're just about done, Fred. Thank
00:34:35 --> 00:34:36 you very much.
00:34:36 --> 00:34:38 >> Oh, a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to
00:34:38 --> 00:34:41 talk. And, um, we'll see you next time.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:43 >> We will. Professor Fred Watson,
00:34:43 --> 00:34:44 astronomer at large. Don't forget to
00:34:44 --> 00:34:47 visit us online in the meantime at
00:34:47 --> 00:34:48 spaceenutspodcast.com
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00:35:19 --> 00:35:21 was going to say something else. Oh no,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:23 I can't remember. Anyway, u that's just
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 about it. Uh also thanks to Hugh in the
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 studio who couldn't be with us today.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:31 He's gone out the back to to brood for
00:35:31 --> 00:35:34 not being named Australian of the year.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:35 And from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for
00:35:35 --> 00:35:37 your company. See you on the next
00:35:37 --> 00:35:39 episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
00:35:39 --> 00:35:40 >> Space Nuts.
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