00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 hi there thanks for joining us this is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts my name is Andrew Dunley your
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 host and it's good to have your company
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 i hope you're well uh coming up we're
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 going to talk dark energy again but uh
00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 this time it's a very different story
00:00:14 --> 00:00:18 and uh there's even potential for a gnab
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 gibb uh also some exciting news from the
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23 square kilometer array and baby
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 exoplanets and their baby moons we'll
00:00:25 --> 00:00:27 talk about all of that on this episode
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 of Space Nuts 15 seconds guidance is
00:00:30 --> 00:00:35 internal 10 9 Ignition sequence start
00:00:35 --> 00:00:41 space nuts 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 Space nuts astronauts reported feels
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 good yep and it's very good to have
00:00:47 --> 00:00:49 Professor Fred Watson back in the chair
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 astronomer at large hello Fred hello
00:00:52 --> 00:00:55 Andrew nice to see you again and you too
00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 and making us look extra uglier is Heidi
00:00:58 --> 00:01:01 Campo and Heidi will be will be our
00:01:01 --> 00:01:04 guest host while I take a a few weeks
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 off uh in the couple of episodes time
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 but Heidi's going to um be a part of
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 these next couple of shows learning the
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 ropes learning how to handle Fred that's
00:01:14 --> 00:01:16 always difficult um plenty of other
00:01:16 --> 00:01:20 things hi Heidi welcome again hi guys
00:01:20 --> 00:01:22 i'm sure Fred will not need too much
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24 handling
00:01:24 --> 00:01:29 well she's m that now she's my title uh
00:01:29 --> 00:01:31 has changed from astronomer at large to
00:01:31 --> 00:01:32 the astronomer on the loose so you know
00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 that told its own story really yeah yeah
00:01:35 --> 00:01:38 he's a wild boy he sure is
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 uh anyway Heidi jump in anytime if
00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 you've got a question or a thought or a
00:01:42 --> 00:01:45 comment or you or you just want to leave
00:01:45 --> 00:01:47 whatever you whatever suits you it's all
00:01:47 --> 00:01:52 good um let's start by a um a story
00:01:52 --> 00:01:55 without notice uh which we gave notice
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 of last week and that was the return to
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 earth of PCH Wilmore and Sunni Williams
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 they are back on Earth after their 10day
00:02:04 --> 00:02:08 mission which ended up being 286 days
00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 I'm told that's um that's quite
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 incredible uh one of the things that um
00:02:13 --> 00:02:15 fascinated me was as soon as they
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 splashed down a pot of dolphins circled
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 the spacecraft i thought that was really
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 cute but they're back on Earth uh I I
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 did a bit more reading on what went
00:02:26 --> 00:02:30 wrong um the the poor old Star Liner um
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 it it showed some some booster problems
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 but then there was another problem with
00:02:35 --> 00:02:38 leaks uh and they
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 decided to not send them back on it just
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 in case and it came back to back to
00:02:43 --> 00:02:46 ground safely of course and then it was
00:02:46 --> 00:02:47 all about how do we get them back to
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 Earth and there was remember Fred we
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 were talking about the um uh lack of
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 compatibility of their space suits i
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 mean all these all these problems just
00:02:58 --> 00:03:00 kept piling up and uh it turned their
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 mission into um yeah something much much
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 bigger i reckon they'll make a movie
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 they will make a movie about this i
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 think I think you're probably right
00:03:11 --> 00:03:12 fortunately we know it has a happy
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 ending so that's Yes yes well I I think
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 there's enough in the story to warrant a
00:03:18 --> 00:03:21 movie because u there were there were um
00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 things that happened on the space
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 station that involved them uh like
00:03:26 --> 00:03:28 record-breaking space walks and um I
00:03:28 --> 00:03:30 think soon he became the the the
00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 commander of the ISIS was there for a
00:03:32 --> 00:03:35 while and um and of course then early
00:03:35 --> 00:03:38 this year um the US president and the
00:03:38 --> 00:03:43 Elon Musk got involved i mean it just
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 you know it's got movie written all over
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 it I reckon um I don't know Heidi what's
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 it what's the I mean our perspective
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 might be different you you're in Houston
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 you're sort of at the bold face
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 certainly am in Houston um well I think
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 as far as the American opinion versus
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 the Houston opinion is a little bit
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 different it seems like and I can't
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 speak for all Americans but it seems
00:04:06 --> 00:04:10 like a lot of Americans are um mixed
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 mixed bag of nuts and it's some people
00:04:13 --> 00:04:15 are really happy that the astronauts are
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 finally back i'm sure the astronauts are
00:04:17 --> 00:04:19 happy that they're back yeah um and then
00:04:19 --> 00:04:21 some people are you know hailing the
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 rescue mission but you know here in
00:04:24 --> 00:04:25 Houston everyone's saying "Hey you know
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 this is this is what they train for this
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 is what they plan for." And there is not
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 a single astronaut that's going to be
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 upset about bonus time in space and this
00:04:36 --> 00:04:40 was not um it was it seems like an
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 emergency situation cuz we watch movies
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 like Gravity where everything goes wrong
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 and we're just thinking complete chaos
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 but for them it's it's this is this is
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 what they do they're professionals and
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 while it may seem like a big chunk of
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 time this just gave the astronauts more
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 time to do what they love to do and
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 that's uh I think it's a beautiful thing
00:05:05 --> 00:05:07 and it wasn't um kind of the way that
00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 some people are seeing it you know the
00:05:09 --> 00:05:13 astronauts are fine and this was planned
00:05:13 --> 00:05:15 for them to come back at this time yeah
00:05:15 --> 00:05:17 i suppose what happens now is they've
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 got to get their Earth bodies back um
00:05:20 --> 00:05:21 because being in space for a long period
00:05:22 --> 00:05:24 of time as Fred and I have discussed uh
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 can have a big impact on your on your um
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 skeletal and muscular systems and
00:05:30 --> 00:05:33 getting back on Earth is um it's it's a
00:05:33 --> 00:05:35 it's a task yes and that's that's
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 actually the research that I'm
00:05:37 --> 00:05:38 specializing in right now is the
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 countermeasures in um human spaceflight
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 research and getting them back to
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 uh Earth gravity ability yeah well it
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 looks like we picked the right person to
00:05:50 --> 00:05:52 take over from me Fred so um I won't be
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 coming back
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 um but um it's good news butch and Sunni
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 back on Earth and um celebrating
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 Christmas a couple of months late uh now
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 uh we are going to look at this uh story
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 that's popped up i I spotted this the
00:06:10 --> 00:06:14 other day Fred uh about uh dark energy
00:06:14 --> 00:06:18 and I read the whole story my brain hurt
00:06:18 --> 00:06:20 i took a couple of ibuprofen and settled
00:06:20 --> 00:06:22 down and then I thought about it and I
00:06:22 --> 00:06:24 simplified it by saying dark energy may
00:06:24 --> 00:06:28 not be doing what we first thought and I
00:06:28 --> 00:06:32 also saw a reference to the possible um
00:06:32 --> 00:06:34 return to the collapse of our universe
00:06:34 --> 00:06:36 sometime in the long long distant future
00:06:36 --> 00:06:40 we hope um so this is a really
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 interesting story to unpack
00:06:43 --> 00:06:47 it is indeed and it's a story that um I
00:06:47 --> 00:06:51 guess uh it's still only a quai story in
00:06:51 --> 00:06:56 that uh the the evidence that is being
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 presented for dark energy weakening over
00:07:00 --> 00:07:04 time is still tentative if I can put it
00:07:04 --> 00:07:06 that way and admittedly so the the the
00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 authors of of this study are not saying
00:07:08 --> 00:07:11 "Yes we've we've firmly discovered that
00:07:11 --> 00:07:13 dark energy is weakening." It it's it's
00:07:13 --> 00:07:15 they're presenting it in in those terms
00:07:15 --> 00:07:17 a tentative
00:07:17 --> 00:07:21 u discovery so um what what are we
00:07:21 --> 00:07:25 talking about here uh back in 1998
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 um we thought the universe was well
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 behaved and gravity of everything in it
00:07:30 --> 00:07:31 would pull it together and one day it
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 would collapse on itself in what some
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 call the big crunch but you and I know
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 the correct term is the ganib gab which
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 is the big bang backwards courtesy of
00:07:40 --> 00:07:44 Brian Schmidtz uh and um that was
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 apparently blown out of the water by
00:07:46 --> 00:07:50 Brian Schmidt and Saul Pulut Pelmuta and
00:07:50 --> 00:07:51 few other scientists who had two
00:07:51 --> 00:07:53 separate projects looking at the
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 expansion of the universe in detail and
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 suddenly we realized that the expansion
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 of the universe is accelerating in other
00:07:59 --> 00:08:03 words it's getting bigger faster and so
00:08:04 --> 00:08:06 um that led to the concept of dark
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 energy as being the sort of propulsive
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 source for this an energy excuse me of
00:08:11 --> 00:08:15 space itself some essence of space that
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 uh as space gets bigger this energy gets
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 bigger as well so the the thing is you
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 know it's a it's a a system that is
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 self-propelling in the sense that it you
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 know the the the bigger the volume of
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 space more energy you've got and um the
00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 simplest assumption that you can make
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 about that is that it can be represented
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 by in the equations of the expansion of
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43 the universe by something we call the
00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 cosmological constant which is a it's a
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 crap name really to tell you what it's
00:08:50 --> 00:08:54 about but it was that was um effectively
00:08:54 --> 00:08:59 a term in an equation that was inserted
00:08:59 --> 00:09:01 by a gentleman by the name of Albert
00:09:01 --> 00:09:05 Einstein uh when uh he realized that his
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 equations of relativity wanted to make
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 the universe expand or contract and at
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 the time back in 1915 he thought it
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 wasn't doing any of those things uh so
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 he put this cosmological constant in to
00:09:17 --> 00:09:19 stop the expansion in the in the
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 theoretical basis uh then of course in
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 1929 Edwin Hubble discovered that the
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 universe is expanding and Einstein later
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 called it his greatest blunder uh but
00:09:29 --> 00:09:32 that is not what we have seen it since
00:09:32 --> 00:09:37 1998 because cosmology has really
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 adopted the cosmological constant as
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 being the most likely
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 um interpretation of the acceleration of
00:09:44 --> 00:09:46 the universe and of what dark energy is
00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 doing it's saying it's proportional to
00:09:48 --> 00:09:50 the size of the universe so the more
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 universe you've got the more dark energy
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 you've got you can however test that and
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 I remember giving talks on this probably
00:09:59 --> 00:10:01 15 years ago uh where people were
00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 talking about testing it by looking at
00:10:03 --> 00:10:07 the large scale geometry of the universe
00:10:07 --> 00:10:11 uh which is traced by uh galaxies and
00:10:11 --> 00:10:14 these strings of galaxies and filaments
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 of galaxies and and membranes of
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 galaxies in in in the wider universe
00:10:19 --> 00:10:21 this sort of honeycomb structure that we
00:10:21 --> 00:10:25 know the the galaxies occupy um and so
00:10:25 --> 00:10:28 if you if you can map that accurately
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 then you can get an insights into
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34 actually not just dark energy but dark
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 matter things like the nutrino content
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 of the universe this all drops out of
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 the way the geometry uh has developed in
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 the history you know the 13.8 billion
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 year history of the universe oh um back
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 in Australia in the early 2000s a survey
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 of the positions of galaxies was started
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 what's called the 2DF uh galaxy survey
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 2df being the twoderee field system on
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 the Anglo Australian telescope that
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 mapped galaxies uh out to about 2 and a
00:11:03 --> 00:11:06 half billion light years away fast
00:11:06 --> 00:11:09 forward to 2025 and we now have surveys
00:11:09 --> 00:11:12 that are mapping galaxies back to 11
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 billion light years away and that's
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 where the cracks are starting to show up
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 in the cosmological constant because the
00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 evidence coming from something called
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 the dark energy survey instrument uh
00:11:25 --> 00:11:26 which is on a telescope very similar to
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 our Anglo Australian telescope uh at Kit
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 Peak in Arizona the male telescope uh
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 that uh is starting to show because
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 they've they've basically evaluated uh
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 the geometry of the universe over these
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 much greater look back times um it looks
00:11:43 --> 00:11:46 as though dark energy was stronger 11
00:11:46 --> 00:11:50 billion years ago than it is now uh and
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 that's as I said it's not a conclusive
00:11:53 --> 00:11:57 um deal yet but the evidence is strong
00:11:58 --> 00:11:59 enough that people are really getting
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 excited about it because we don't
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 understand it we It's not predicted by
00:12:05 --> 00:12:07 relativity m and and that's what makes
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 it so complicated and hard to get
00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 through your head but um the the the
00:12:12 --> 00:12:14 scenarios that the popular press have
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 jumped on is uh look if the universe
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 continues to expand at an
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 everinccreasing rate which is the
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 current thinking it will ultimately rip
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 um but if this new study is right and
00:12:27 --> 00:12:31 things are slowing down it might just
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 collapse back in on itself um if none of
00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 none of those things happen and the
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 universe just sort of hangs like on a
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 street corner uh it it will just
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 eventually burn out and become a cold
00:12:46 --> 00:12:49 dark place so they're the three
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 potential fates aren't they uh yes
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 that's right well as as we understand it
00:12:54 --> 00:12:58 as we um the the thing about this is um
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 if it if it shows holes in relativity
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 and that's the exciting bit you people
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 have been looking for cracks in the
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 theory of relativity basically for 100
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 years um because relativity is such a
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 good theory um it's very hard to find
00:13:17 --> 00:13:21 any anything in it that does that is not
00:13:21 --> 00:13:24 um replicated in the real universe you
00:13:24 --> 00:13:26 know the theory predicts the real
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 universe very very accurately indeed uh
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 but there are some things that we think
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 are anomalous you know there's this
00:13:34 --> 00:13:38 tension between quantum theory and
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 relativity theory uh there's there's
00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 dark energy itself which we don't really
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 understand and there's dark matter which
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 we don't really understand either and
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 these are all things that maybe need new
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 physical theories to understand and so
00:13:54 --> 00:13:55 when you start finding cracks in
00:13:56 --> 00:13:57 relativity maybe that is going to give
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 us a window into these new ideas that
00:14:00 --> 00:14:04 might let us understand what dark matter
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 is what dark energy is how quantum
00:14:07 --> 00:14:10 physics uh interacts with relativity how
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 the two come together and you never know
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 andrew some of that might actually be
00:14:15 --> 00:14:17 useful it might be stuff that we could
00:14:17 --> 00:14:20 make use of uh on the human scale in a
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 in a similar way to the fact that
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 relativity lets us have a GPS system in
00:14:25 --> 00:14:29 one of these yeah yeah absolutely uh and
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 Einstein himself always believed that
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 his general theory of uh theory of
00:14:35 --> 00:14:39 general relativity was flawed
00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 we just haven't found the cracks yet he
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43 did he went through his life looking for
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 um the evidence of exactly as you've
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 said um flaws in general relativity new
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 physics that would in in his case
00:14:53 --> 00:14:57 principally unify um dark sorry unify
00:14:57 --> 00:15:01 quantum mechanics and general relativity
00:15:01 --> 00:15:02 he didn't know about dark matter from
00:15:02 --> 00:15:06 dark energy he died in 1955 well before
00:15:06 --> 00:15:07 uh actually we knew about dark matter
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09 then but nobody talked about it because
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 it was too hard to understand but anyway
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 he didn't know about those things yeah
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 uh it could but as you said this this is
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 um only and a theory that's in it its
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22 infancy they've got a lot more work to
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 do to you know um to figure out whether
00:15:25 --> 00:15:27 or not they're right uh and we're we're
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 heading for a big crunch or whatever you
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 want to call it a gab gib
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 yes all right if you'd like to read that
00:15:35 --> 00:15:36 story it's all over the web but uh
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 there's a great article at the
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 conversation website this is Space Nuts
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 andrew Dunley here Heidi Campo there and
00:15:43 --> 00:15:48 Fred somewhere else
00:15:48 --> 00:15:54 3 2 1 Space Nuts uh okay uh our next
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 story uh is um getting a bit closer to
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 home and this is one we've talked about
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 many times the Square Kilometer Array
00:16:02 --> 00:16:04 that wonderful device that they're
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06 building out in the Never of Western
00:16:06 --> 00:16:10 Australia uh and even though it's not
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 finished yet and they're going to
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 probably not complete it until 2030
00:16:15 --> 00:16:18 uh the exciting news is that they've um
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 they've taken their first image and it
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 was a selfie no it
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 wasn't uh yeah this is a great story
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 it's um the department of industry
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 science and resources uh who until
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 recently was my employer um is the
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 basically the the federal agency that
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 looks after the square kilometer array
00:16:40 --> 00:16:42 so this is a story very close to my
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 heart uh and I you know I'd love to
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 congratulate all my colleagues in that
00:16:48 --> 00:16:49 department who have been working on this
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 and of course the people in the square
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 kilometer array observatory and the CSRO
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 Commonwealth Science Industrial Research
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 Organization Australia's National
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 Science Agency all of those people too
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 because this is a great step forward um
00:17:03 --> 00:17:05 I I can't remember whether I've
00:17:05 --> 00:17:06 mentioned this to you before Andrew but
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 um I played a small part in this um
00:17:09 --> 00:17:13 because back in I think it was 2018 18 I
00:17:13 --> 00:17:16 was part of a small group that fronted
00:17:16 --> 00:17:18 up to a parliamentary committee
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 something called Jcott the joint
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 standing coordinating bill on treaties
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 and it was to to to persuade the
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 government of Australia that signing a
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 treaty uh with the international square
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 kilometer array was a good thing and
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 they asked the astronomer at large what
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 his view was and I told them they had my
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 personal guarantee that this telescope
00:17:42 --> 00:17:43 will produce Nobel prizes that's right
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 he did too so um I've got a vested
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 interest in this thing working even
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 though it does have a 50-year lifetime
00:17:51 --> 00:17:54 uh and I don't probably from now you
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 never know could be
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 um but the the thing that um really
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 tickled me was that it went into Hansard
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 the parliamentary record so that is my
00:18:05 --> 00:18:08 contribution which is vanishingly small
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 compared with what everybody else has
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 done so where is it the telescope is at
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 the CSRO Merches and Radio Astronomy
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 Observatory in Yarimmania Ilgari Bundura
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 and that uh Wajgery name is uh something
00:18:22 --> 00:18:25 that translates as me sharing sky and
00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 stars uh the Wadger Yamachi people are
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31 the traditional owners of the land on
00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 which the telescope uh is and so the the
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 site has an Aboriginal name a watery
00:18:36 --> 00:18:40 name which is lovely uh it um is
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 something like 350 kilometers
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 norththeast of Geraldton which is on the
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 northern coast of Western Australia it's
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 in a region that is perhaps one of the
00:18:51 --> 00:18:55 most radio quiet regions on the land
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 surface of the world um because there's
00:18:58 --> 00:18:59 no external
00:18:59 --> 00:19:03 interference from terrestrial sources uh
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 and so that's why it's there it's
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 because it's such a radio quiet region
00:19:08 --> 00:19:12 um I have had quite a lot to do with
00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 trying to keep it that way though
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 because of course one of the things that
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 interferes with the radio quietness are
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 satellite mega constellations and um
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 that's one of the things that has
00:19:23 --> 00:19:25 occupied my time over the last few years
00:19:25 --> 00:19:30 to to be concerned about them and um
00:19:30 --> 00:19:32 work with collaborators on how we can
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 mitigate that that risk anyway that's a
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 different story uh the bottom line is uh
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 this telescope is the low frequency arm
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 of the square kilometer array
00:19:43 --> 00:19:44 observatory the mid-frequency arm is in
00:19:44 --> 00:19:48 South Africa uh which will have 197
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 dishes very like the parks dish that
00:19:51 --> 00:19:52 we're all familiar with here in
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 Australia um a standard radio dish
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 however the low frequency telescope uh
00:19:58 --> 00:20:02 in Western Australia consists of a whole
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 lot of metal Christmas trees yeah uh
00:20:05 --> 00:20:11 about 2 m high uh there are going to be
00:20:11 --> 00:20:15 131 of these Christmas trees uh but
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 there has been a start made and we now
00:20:18 --> 00:20:23 have working 1 of them and that
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 thousand or so of the antennas is what
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 has generated this first image that was
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 released last week uh and and it is a
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35 major triumph uh just to to give a one
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 little insight into the um complexity of
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 this telescope for for both you and
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 Heidi um it's when it's finished uh its
00:20:45 --> 00:20:48 data capacity will be more than today's
00:20:48 --> 00:20:53 internet um so it's a it's a lot of data
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 it's an incredibly complex uh system
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 when the telescope was planned there
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00 weren't any computers in the world that
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 were fast enough to to actually you know
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 make it work and we've moved along from
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 that as we can see because the first
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 thousand antennas are actually doing
00:21:08 --> 00:21:12 their thing uh so an extraordinary um
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 you know an extraordinary instrument
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 with I think a very bright future a
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 radio bright future and uh and the first
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 big step in putting it on the map as an
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 astronomical instrument what did it look
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 at yes 25 that's what that's what I read
00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 your mind i beg you indeed you did yeah
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 25 square degrees of the sky in the
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 southern constellation of Sculptor uh
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 and basically looked at radio galaxies
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 in that 25 square degrees it it um
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 detected I think 84 of them these are
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 all galaxies that have been known from
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 other explorations and of course the
00:21:52 --> 00:21:53 telescope is nowhere near its final
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55 sensitivity yet it's going to be
00:21:55 --> 00:21:56 hundreds of times more sensitive when
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 when it gets the full array but um
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 that's a a great start and everybody's
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 delighted with the image that was that
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 was released uh especially the
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08 scientists working at the square
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 kilometer array uh when the thing is
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 finished that same bit of sky it will
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 reveal something like 600 galaxies
00:22:16 --> 00:22:20 rather than 84 and those some of those
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 galaxies will probably be the first
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 galaxies forming in the universe because
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 you'll be looking back so far in time
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 we'll see the end of the dark ages when
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 nothing was shining in the first few
00:22:32 --> 00:22:34 hundred million years of the universe so
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 it's going to look back a long way it's
00:22:36 --> 00:22:37 still hard to get your head around the
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 fact that we we'll be able to see what
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 was there before i know I know we we're
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 moving forward in time constantly but um
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 there's just still all this evidence and
00:22:48 --> 00:22:51 information and and um historical data
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 if you like that that gives us that kind
00:22:54 --> 00:22:56 of insight i think that's just that's
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 amazing i tried to explain it to my
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 grandson and he just went back to
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 Pokémon but um it was
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 just tell him tell him that he's seeing
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 he's seeing Pokémon as it was a
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 billionth of a second ago well yeah I
00:23:10 --> 00:23:11 don't think he I don't think he'd get
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 that either but uh it it's Yeah it's
00:23:14 --> 00:23:17 quite extraordinary and uh and this um
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 thing and the and the one in South
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 Africa that I think it's called Mircat
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 mat's the the initial version mat it'll
00:23:25 --> 00:23:29 be a kind of mega mircat yes yes uh it
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 it promises to open um big doors just
00:23:32 --> 00:23:35 like the James Web Space Telescope and
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 the Vera Rubin telescope and all those
00:23:37 --> 00:23:39 new things coming online these next 20
00:23:39 --> 00:23:41 30 years are going to be extremely
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 exciting that's absolutely right um what
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 just one other thing you know the the
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 the SKA will probe the whole history of
00:23:48 --> 00:23:51 the universe basically including today's
00:23:51 --> 00:23:54 universe so um my radio astronomy
00:23:54 --> 00:23:56 colleagues tell me that the sensitivity
00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 of the final telescope will be enough
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 that it will be able to detect an
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 airport radar at 50 light years away how
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 how awesome so if there are people
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 leaking radio waves into space from the
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 stars of other planets within 50 light
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 years we're going to know about it wow
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 wow and they probably set up their own
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 square kilometer array they'll find us
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 too maybe i don't know are there any
00:24:21 --> 00:24:24 concerns with more and more satellites
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 getting launched and radio waves in the
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 atmosphere of anything disrupting these
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 highly sensitive and advanced tools
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 absolutely right Heidi they are and
00:24:35 --> 00:24:36 those concerns are what I mentioned a
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39 minute ago it's um uh that there's um a
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 lot of activity in the astronomical
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 world in how you can mitigate the effect
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 of these uh satellite
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 constellations
00:24:51 --> 00:24:56 we it's it's possible uh so let just
00:24:56 --> 00:24:57 just sidest stepping to this for a
00:24:57 --> 00:25:00 minute at the moment there are just over
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 11 operational satellites in orbit
00:25:03 --> 00:25:07 of which uh 7 are Starlink in low
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10 Earth orbit uh Starlink's got a mandate
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 to launch up to 42 there are many
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 many more so it's likely that by the end
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 of the decade there'll be 100
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 spacecraft in orbit with 50 above
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 the horizon at any one time and they're
00:25:22 --> 00:25:26 all beaming down radio signals now um
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 Starling SpaceX actually is one of the
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30 good players in this because they turn
00:25:30 --> 00:25:33 their their satellites off when they're
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 over radio astronomy observatories they
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 switch off the beams however uh there
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 are other issues because the electronics
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 of the spacecraft themselves are quite
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 noisy at the level that these sensitive
00:25:45 --> 00:25:47 radio telescopes can detect so there is
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49 a huge amount of work going on as to how
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 you can how you can rectify this you
00:25:52 --> 00:25:53 can't get rid of them that they're a
00:25:54 --> 00:25:55 fact of life uh they're going to be more
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 of them they actually do good stuff
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00 because they provide high-speed internet
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03 um you know on a on a global scale um
00:26:03 --> 00:26:07 but it's changing astronomy both visible
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 light astronomy and radio astronomy um
00:26:10 --> 00:26:11 astronomers are now having to deal with
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 this excuse me this um interference from
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16 from satellites so a lot of work going
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 on on that and um I talk about it
00:26:18 --> 00:26:21 incessantly so I'll shut up yeah yeah
00:26:21 --> 00:26:23 i've heard even astrophotographers are
00:26:23 --> 00:26:25 having harder time getting long exposure
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 shots that's correct yeah yes yeah uh
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 and and of course um Heidi you probably
00:26:30 --> 00:26:31 have already figured out what I figured
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 out that this first image of the SKA is
00:26:34 --> 00:26:36 actually just the satellite array of
00:26:36 --> 00:26:38 Starlink and it's not actually galaxies
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 at all but yeah oh well that's No I'm
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 kidding sorry Elon as a lot of people
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 would be very upset about that thought
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48 but fortunately none of them listen to
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50 this so they Yeah that's right yeah once
00:26:50 --> 00:26:51 they get to know me they'll realize I'm
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 just full of it anyway but um of course
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 the most exciting thing about all of
00:26:56 --> 00:26:58 this Fred is that I know where I'm going
00:26:58 --> 00:27:00 for Christmas in 2030 because you know I
00:27:00 --> 00:27:03 can't fit 131 Christmas trees at my
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 place so that's really exciting that's
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 going to be fun uh if you'd like to read
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 up on that story uh best place to go
00:27:10 --> 00:27:13 would be the square kilometer array uh
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 website the SKA Observatory website easy
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 to find
00:27:18 --> 00:27:23 skao hey we'll get you there
00:27:23 --> 00:27:27 g and I feel fine space nuts uh now uh
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 one final story Fred uh this one you
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 know we everybody loves babies uh we
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 we've um finally found baby moons uh
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 that are forming around baby planets
00:27:39 --> 00:27:43 um yeah which is a neat segue um to let
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 you know how our baby is doing my new
00:27:46 --> 00:27:51 granddaughter Aggie oh she's now almost
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 a month old she's three weeks old she's
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 doing very well thank you thank you for
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 asking congratulations oh thank you
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 Heidi what we talking about again yes uh
00:28:01 --> 00:28:05 we were talking about baby planets um
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 and this is uh some work that has come
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 from actually a telescope in the
00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 southern hemisphere what's happened here
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 my my crib sheets disappeared there we
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 are
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 Fred can lose pieces of paper that
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 aren't even real
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 so I've just done it this is on the um
00:28:27 --> 00:28:30 uh work coming from the 6 and a half
00:28:30 --> 00:28:32 meter or one of the two 6 and a half
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 meter Mellan telescopes which are at Las
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 Campanis Observatory in Chile a place
00:28:37 --> 00:28:41 which I visited uh a very nice dark site
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 for astronomy uh but these uh scientists
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47 uh who are principally from the
00:28:47 --> 00:28:50 University of Arizona uh up there in
00:28:50 --> 00:28:56 Tucson they have been observing uh with
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 something called an extreme adaptive
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 optics system so you know we're familiar
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 with groundbased telescopes having to
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 look through the atmosphere uh and
00:29:05 --> 00:29:07 that's why we put telescopes in space uh
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10 because the atmosphere is not there uh
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 so uh down here on the earth we've
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 always got the turbulent in the
00:29:14 --> 00:29:16 atmosphere to deal with but this
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 technology of adaptive optics is now um
00:29:19 --> 00:29:23 actually making imagery that is even
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 finer detailed than space imagery is and
00:29:26 --> 00:29:30 so we uh are not really surprised when
00:29:30 --> 00:29:33 we get results like these from the
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 Mellan adaptive optics extreme
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 instrument AOX to give it its full name
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 uh which shows a protolanetary disc
00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 around a star which has the glamorous
00:29:46 --> 00:29:47 name of
00:29:47 --> 00:29:52 PDS70 uh PDS70 is a star which is young
00:29:52 --> 00:29:56 uh something like 5 million years old
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 that is very young indeed it's a you
00:29:59 --> 00:30:04 know our our sun is 4.5 billion years
00:30:04 --> 00:30:07 old so this is a thousand times younger
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 um but it has a protolanetary disc
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 around it the disc of dust and gaseous
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 debris that we that we recognize as
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17 being the way planets are formed and
00:30:17 --> 00:30:21 within this disc uh some planets have
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23 actually been identified they have been
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 imaged and that's quite unusual as you
00:30:25 --> 00:30:29 and I know Andrew u the normal way that
00:30:29 --> 00:30:31 we investigate uh the planets of other
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 stars is by the effect of the planet on
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 the star itself which we can which we
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 can then observe but this is a direct uh
00:30:39 --> 00:30:41 image of two planets which are
00:30:41 --> 00:30:45 PDS70B and PDS70C
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 uh and they are sort of going to be that
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50 they're still growing they're still
00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 accreting material they're probably
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54 going to be uh much bigger than Jupiter
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 but there is evidence uh from the
00:30:57 --> 00:31:00 imagery that the planets themselves have
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 a protolanetary disc around them in
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 other words the planets also have a ring
00:31:05 --> 00:31:07 of stuff around them which is where we
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 think moons form uh we believe our own
00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 moon formed from a ring of debris caused
00:31:12 --> 00:31:15 by an impact of an object we call Thea
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 the size of Mars back in the day so uh a
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21 a really nice piece of work suggesting
00:31:21 --> 00:31:25 that moons of exoplanets are a reality
00:31:25 --> 00:31:28 uh we can expect to find more of them as
00:31:28 --> 00:31:31 the technology improves and the big
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 gamecher of course will be the European
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36 Southern Observatory's extremely large
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 telescope when it comes on stream in
00:31:38 --> 00:31:41 2028 which will be able to form direct
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 images of these things yeah uh how far
00:31:43 --> 00:31:45 away is this object it's actually quite
00:31:45 --> 00:31:49 a way okay so I think 370 light years
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 comes to mind i think that is its
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 distance uh and that's uh you know
00:31:54 --> 00:31:57 that's certainly not on our doorstep um
00:31:57 --> 00:31:58 it's um
00:31:58 --> 00:32:01 it's in the sun's neighborhood in space
00:32:01 --> 00:32:03 but it's not among the nearest stars
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 yeah but to be able to analyze something
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 so far away and and find data that
00:32:10 --> 00:32:12 suggests look we've got protolanets and
00:32:12 --> 00:32:14 proto moons happening here that's pretty
00:32:14 --> 00:32:17 darn amazing i think so too yeah so
00:32:17 --> 00:32:19 congratulations to colleagues at the
00:32:19 --> 00:32:22 University of Arizona yeah good for them
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 yeah there actually you got friends
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27 everywhere Fred well in astronomy it's
00:32:27 --> 00:32:29 such a small world you do might have a
00:32:29 --> 00:32:33 friend on Mars soon you never know
00:32:33 --> 00:32:35 somebody Somebody Somebody call me Elon
00:32:35 --> 00:32:37 do you mean
00:32:38 --> 00:32:40 Oh dear uh that story available at
00:32:40 --> 00:32:42 space.com if you want to have a look at
00:32:42 --> 00:32:45 the um the images their their um
00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 artistic representations but it gives
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 you a pretty good idea of what they've
00:32:49 --> 00:32:51 um what they've found uh and that brings
00:32:51 --> 00:32:54 us to the end anything to add Heidi to
00:32:54 --> 00:32:55 finish off you know this has been a
00:32:56 --> 00:32:57 learning process for you i'm sure you're
00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 going "What the heck have I got myself
00:32:59 --> 00:33:03 into?" No I'm just I'm thinking about so
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05 many things and I have questions lining
00:33:05 --> 00:33:07 up probably for future episodes good
00:33:08 --> 00:33:11 good that's what we want um excellent
00:33:11 --> 00:33:12 all right well thanks for sitting in and
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 uh we will catch you on the next episode
00:33:15 --> 00:33:16 because that's a completely different
00:33:16 --> 00:33:19 kettle of fish our fish being listeners
00:33:19 --> 00:33:22 and uh Fred thank you to you as always
00:33:22 --> 00:33:26 i don't know what that meant either
00:33:26 --> 00:33:27 you're welcome Andrew you You're very
00:33:27 --> 00:33:31 welcome as always oh gosh um time to go
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33 and thanks to Hugh in the studio who
00:33:33 --> 00:33:34 didn't turn up today because he knew
00:33:34 --> 00:33:37 what he was getting himself into and uh
00:33:37 --> 00:33:39 he didn't warn Heidi about it at all and
00:33:39 --> 00:33:41 from me Andrew Dunley thanks for your
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 company see you on the next episode of
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46 Space Nuts bye-bye space Nuts you'll be
00:33:46 --> 00:33:50 listening to the Space Nuts podcast
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