Space Nuts Episode 511: Dust Devils on Mars, Space Junk Solutions, and Galaxy Growth Conundrums
In this captivating episode of Space Nuts, host Heidi Campo fills in for Andrew Dunkley, joining astronomer Professor Fred Watson to explore some of the most intriguing cosmic topics. From the fascinating dust devils observed on Mars to innovative solutions for space debris and the surprising behavior of distant galaxies, this episode is packed with insights that will leave you pondering the mysteries of the universe.
Episode Highlights:
- Dust Devils on Mars: Heidi and Fred delve into the unique phenomenon of Martian dust devils, discussing how they differ from those on Earth and their significant impact on Mars' surface, including the surprising discovery of lightning within these swirling dust columns.
- Space Junk Solutions: The duo examines the growing problem of space debris and introduces a groundbreaking technology from Perseus Space that utilizes electrodynamic tethers to help clean up our orbits, offering a sustainable approach to managing space junk.
- Galaxy Growth Conundrums: Fred shares insights from the latest findings of the James Webb Space Telescope, revealing unexpected results about the growth of early galaxies and the implications for our understanding of cosmic evolution.
- Multiverse Theories: The conversation takes a speculative turn as Heidi and Fred discuss the intriguing concept of the multiverse and how it challenges our understanding of the cosmos and the laws of physics.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
(00:00) Professor Fred Watson joins us to discuss the latest Space Nuts podcast
(00:40) It's been quite windy here, but the weather's been nice
(01:04) The Spaceflight Human Optimization and Performance Summit is happening this month
(02:18) Fred Seibert talks about light pollution in Arizona
(03:41) People may not be as familiar with some of the dust storms on Mars
(11:47) Mars has such a thin atmosphere that it's not a place to colonize
(13:23) New technology could help us deal with space debris and junk in orbit
(15:52) Perseus Space is developing a new weapon against space junk
(20:46) The James Webb Space Telescope is looking very much at very distant galaxies
(26:44) Astronomers and cosmologists talk about the multiverse theory
(34:35) Fred: We have very exciting time at the moment in human space flight
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/26544386?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 welcome back to another exciting episode
00:00:03 --> 00:00:06 of Space Nuts the podcast that is
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09 absolutely out of this world I am your
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 host today Heidi Compo filling in for
00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 the regular Andrew Dunley And here we
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 have with us Professor Fred Watson
00:00:17 --> 00:00:21 astronomer at large 15 seconds Guidance
00:00:21 --> 00:00:26 is internal 10 9 ignition sequence start
00:00:26 --> 00:00:32 Space nets 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:00:32 --> 00:00:34 Space nuts Astronauts report It feels
00:00:34 --> 00:00:36 good
00:00:36 --> 00:00:38 Hi Fred How are you doing today Um I'm
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 well thanks and lovely to see you again
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 And uh we have a beautiful sunny morning
00:00:43 --> 00:00:45 here in Sydney where I'm recording at
00:00:45 --> 00:00:47 the moment You're at the other end of
00:00:47 --> 00:00:49 the world at the other end of the day
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 Bay Center Houston It's evening It's
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 been quite windy here but the weather's
00:00:54 --> 00:00:56 been nice It's been warm but not too
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 warm Um and this is going to be this is
00:00:59 --> 00:01:00 going to be a nice month I think
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 springtime in Houston is always just
00:01:03 --> 00:01:06 really fantastic And speaking of this
00:01:06 --> 00:01:08 month I wanted to share with you and our
00:01:08 --> 00:01:10 other listeners an exciting event that
00:01:10 --> 00:01:11 is happening here in Space Center
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 Houston Well yeah sorry it will be at
00:01:14 --> 00:01:16 Space Center Houston but it's happening
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 in Houston in general is the Spaceflight
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 Human Optimization and Performance
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 Summit So that will be happening at the
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 end of the month and they are going to
00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 have all kinds of fantastic speakers
00:01:29 --> 00:01:30 from NASA and other private
00:01:30 --> 00:01:33 organizations They're giving educational
00:01:33 --> 00:01:35 talks on the effects of spaceflight on
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 the human body And it is such a
00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 fantastic opportunity to network to hear
00:01:40 --> 00:01:42 from people who are really at the
00:01:42 --> 00:01:45 cutting edge of science and to just kind
00:01:45 --> 00:01:46 of collaborate with some really
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 brilliant people It's uh fun to
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 sometimes be in those places where you
00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 are pretty confident that you're not the
00:01:52 --> 00:01:55 smartest person in the room
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 I've spent my whole life feeling that
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 honestly
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 Well I feel like that sometimes when I'm
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 looking at your books and whatnot So
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 we've got some pretty fun articles we're
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 looking at today Uh we've got some
00:02:09 --> 00:02:13 things about stuff going on on Mars
00:02:13 --> 00:02:16 There's articles about space junk and
00:02:16 --> 00:02:21 galaxy models And I wanted to start this
00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 off by asking you Fred have you ever
00:02:24 --> 00:02:29 been to Arizona Oh yes Um quite often Uh
00:02:29 --> 00:02:33 because the uh for a long time the
00:02:33 --> 00:02:36 center of the the world's a astronomy
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 instrument development
00:02:38 --> 00:02:43 um uh what's the word for it Um thrust
00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 that's a good word the center of the
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 world's astronomy instrument development
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 thrust was in Tucson Uh and of course
00:02:50 --> 00:02:53 the Kit Peak uh National Observatory is
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 not very far from Tucson Uh so I spent
00:02:55 --> 00:02:59 many many weeks there on and off Uh and
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 the other thing that uh Tucson's famous
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 for in that sense and the two of course
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 are absolutely interled is that's where
00:03:05 --> 00:03:09 the the uh the basically the dark sky
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 movement started the idea that we can do
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 something about light pollution Uh
00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 because it was at that time the impact
00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 was mostly on astronomers but we now
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 know that it's not just astronomers who
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 are impacted by bad light and light
00:03:22 --> 00:03:23 pollution It's the the whole natural
00:03:24 --> 00:03:26 world and indeed ourselves Uh so that
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 has moved on since the early 1980s when
00:03:29 --> 00:03:32 it all got going in uh in Tucson Arizona
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 Uh and yes while I was in Tucson I
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 explored most of the rest of Arizona as
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 well Yeah Excellent Well yeah that's
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 good We're kind of building on what we
00:03:39 --> 00:03:40 talked about last week with the
00:03:40 --> 00:03:42 pollution but I was going to say if
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 you've been to Arizona well I guess in
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 Sydney Australia too you've definitely
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 seen some dust storms right Yeah Yeah
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 that's right And it absolutely I know
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 where this is going
00:03:54 --> 00:03:58 Do you get uh do you get haboos in in in
00:03:58 --> 00:04:00 Australia at all You know is that the
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 name for what we call dust devils Oh so
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 the haboos are the really really big
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 ones I was living in Arizona If you guys
00:04:09 --> 00:04:13 want to Google the 2010 haboo in Phoenix
00:04:13 --> 00:04:20 Arizona Haboo It's very phonetic H U B O
00:04:20 --> 00:04:24 O B I believe or H A Um but it is a
00:04:24 --> 00:04:26 Middle Eastern word because these
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 normally happen in the Middle East and
00:04:28 --> 00:04:29 with things like if you've seen the
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 movie Halgo with the horse horses
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 running uh things like that So if you
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 see the 2010 HABO Arizona pictures
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 you'll see what I'm talking about Quite
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 crazy But yeah dust is something that
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 you're going to be familiar with in
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 places like Australia and Arizona But
00:04:47 --> 00:04:49 people may not be as familiar with some
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 of the dust storms on Mars which you are
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 so smart That's exactly where we were
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 going is they did see some dust devil
00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 activity on Mars And I think that's kind
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 of cool and exciting Can you tell us a
00:05:02 --> 00:05:04 little bit about what's going on with
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 that And and it's for the this is a it's
00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 a topic I I really love Um and it's
00:05:09 --> 00:05:12 because uh you've put your finger on it
00:05:12 --> 00:05:13 This is something we're familiar with
00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 here Not so not in Sydney certainly but
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 uh in the western plains of New South
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 Wales and I lived in that region for 25
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 years it was very common to see these uh
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 pillars of dust Is that what you mean by
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 a haboo Is it very much a you know how
00:05:30 --> 00:05:32 does it relate to a to a tornado Boobs
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 are more much more extreme It's an
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 extreme dust storm that's more like a
00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 wall of sand coming out you So if you
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 think of interstellar with the wave of
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 water it's like that but with sand We we
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 get that in Australia too uh whether you
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 know the top soil will blow off in one
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 region and you will literally get a wall
00:05:53 --> 00:05:57 of of of dust brown dust uh which
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 sometimes gives rise to the most
00:05:59 --> 00:06:03 spectacular photographs Uh and if the
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 dust you know penetrates far enough it
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 does actually reach the coast There have
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 been occasions of that sort of dust
00:06:09 --> 00:06:13 storm in Sydney uh the um the the the
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 whole color of the landscape changes Not
00:06:16 --> 00:06:18 just because it's covered in dust but
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 because the atmosphere filters out you
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 know all the all the the the blue light
00:06:23 --> 00:06:25 and you get this
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 reddish ethereal glow which is in many
00:06:28 --> 00:06:29 ways ethereal is probably the wrong word
00:06:29 --> 00:06:32 It's it's actually uh almost apocalyptic
00:06:32 --> 00:06:34 It feels you know that that you've got
00:06:34 --> 00:06:36 this wall of dust and the and the colors
00:06:36 --> 00:06:39 afterwards the cover uh the um the
00:06:40 --> 00:06:42 peculiar colors But um what I was going
00:06:42 --> 00:06:44 to talk about today though are what are
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 usually known as dust devils which are
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 quite small areas of dust and it's where
00:06:49 --> 00:06:51 you get a little whirlwind that picks up
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55 a column of dust uh and moves it along
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 the landscape So you see these moving
00:06:57 --> 00:07:01 columns uh of of basically dust
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 Sometimes there's bits of debris being
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 circulated around It's not a tornado Uh
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 but uh it's you know the sort of perhaps
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 the poor relative of a tornado Uh we do
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 get them in Western New South Wales and
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 I've seen a lot there but uh I was
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 surprised It goes back actually this
00:07:21 --> 00:07:25 story to uh probably about 2003 or four
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 in the early days of the new generation
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 of Mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity uh
00:07:32 --> 00:07:33 were the two that really sort of put
00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 Mars rovers on the map There were other
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 ones before that but Spirit and
00:07:37 --> 00:07:39 Opportunity gave us some stunning images
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 of the planet surface uh and uh among
00:07:42 --> 00:07:47 them uh were images from Spirit I think
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 taken from the top of uh a mountain
00:07:49 --> 00:07:54 range um which uh was basically on the
00:07:54 --> 00:07:55 edge of a of a crater actually it might
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 have been Curiosity and I should have
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 checked that no I think it's spirit uh
00:07:59 --> 00:08:01 Gusev crater I think was its name if I
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 remember rightly lovely images across
00:08:04 --> 00:08:07 the crater with little movie clips of
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 these dust devils um going across it
00:08:10 --> 00:08:12 which are relative relatively common on
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 Mars it turns out and in fact they were
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 observed actually by the Viking orbiter
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 back in 1976 So uh the the the
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 spacecraft happened to be looking down
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 at a region where one of these uh was
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 happening They're different from earthly
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 ones in first of all in the sense that
00:08:29 --> 00:08:34 because the atmosphere on Mars is so dry
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 it's virtually zero humidity That means
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 that static electricity can build up and
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 so you often get flashes of lightning in
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 the base of Martian dust
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 devils and um yeah little little sparks
00:08:49 --> 00:08:51 of lightning caused by the static
00:08:51 --> 00:08:52 electricity buildup And the other thing
00:08:52 --> 00:08:56 is they're much taller than the ones we
00:08:56 --> 00:08:58 find here on Earth The biggest one I
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 ever saw in New South Wales here in
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 Australia uh probably had a height of
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 about 500 meters half a kilometer So
00:09:06 --> 00:09:09 what's that sort of you know um about
00:09:09 --> 00:09:13 about a third of a mile basically uh and
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 that's you know that was pretty
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 significant Um on Mars they get up to 8
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 kilometers uh which is like 5 miles and
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 I guess that's partly due to the fact
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 that the dust is very very fine and also
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 uh the fact that Mars of course only has
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 a third of the gravity that we have here
00:09:32 --> 00:09:35 on planet Earth Um and just a quick
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 aside um the they're technically known
00:09:39 --> 00:09:43 as dust devils Uh I think that's the
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 correct term It's different from a haboo
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 A haboo is a wall of dust and that's
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 something we also get But in uh most of
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 Australia they have a a First Nations
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 name an Aboriginal name They're called
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 willy-willies Uh and a willy-willy is a
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 is a is a you know little dust storm
00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 that's going past on the horizon
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 Um one other little factoid about the
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 Martian ones in particular is that with
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 uh both Spirit and Opportunity which
00:10:13 --> 00:10:17 relied for their power on solar panels
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 unlike Curiosity and Perseverance which
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 have got thermmoelectric uh nuclear
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 generators
00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 uh the the the dust panel the sorry the
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 solar panels tended to get just covered
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 by dust dust that is you know present on
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 Mars Mars is a very very dusty planet So
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 as you as you roam around the surface
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 you're kicking up dust with the space
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 with the rover's wheels and that dust
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 eventually lands on the solar panels I'm
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 going to have to clear my throat Excuse
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 me one minute Yeah Yes
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 There we go I hope that uh Oh I don't
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 think I don't think I muted that That's
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 okay We can edit that out
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 That was meant to be muted out And I'm
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 sorry I did Sorry Hugh that probably
00:11:04 --> 00:11:06 went right in your ears Uh as I can see
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 from Heidi's face it went in hers as
00:11:08 --> 00:11:12 well Um just just to to mention though
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 that the the the solar panels themselves
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 were cleared unlike my throat by dust
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 devils They were actually cleared when
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 these things passed over and swept the
00:11:23 --> 00:11:25 dust off the solar panels So Curiosity
00:11:25 --> 00:11:29 in particular which was in a um sorry
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 opportunity uh was in a dusty place uh
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 that um that kept you know the power
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 kept dropping and kept re reappearing
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 again because of these dust devils Quite
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 quite extraordinary And that's
00:11:41 --> 00:11:43 definitely going to be a concern when
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 we're trying to you know get humanity to
00:11:46 --> 00:11:48 set up a colony on this planet I'm just
00:11:48 --> 00:11:49 thinking of the movie The Martian as
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 cliche as it is that was the big problem
00:11:52 --> 00:11:54 that got him stuck there to begin with
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 was that big dust storm So I guess that
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 was uh a bit scientifically accurate
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 when they put that into that movie Inde
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 that's right the dust storm was um we
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 now know Martian dust is is toxic as
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 well in the sense that if it gets into
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 your lungs it does quite a lot of damage
00:12:11 --> 00:12:15 So um so in my view not a place to
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 colonize but that's my view Is the dust
00:12:18 --> 00:12:20 similar to the moon Regalith where it's
00:12:20 --> 00:12:22 also kind of sticky Yes I think it's a
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 bit like that Um okay And probably for
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 the same sort of reason Mars has such a
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 thin atmosphere
00:12:29 --> 00:12:32 uh that the erosion processes originally
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 erosion took place with wind and water
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 like like it did here on Earth because
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 of the fact that Mars had a had a warm
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 and wet climate Um the uh the the uh
00:12:43 --> 00:12:46 thinness of the atmosphere uh means that
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 you've got a much higher level of
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 bombardment by subatomic particles from
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 the sun and that's what gives you the
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 sharp pointy edges of dust particles on
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 the moon Now the moon's nearer to the
00:12:57 --> 00:13:00 sun than Mars is but I think still the
00:13:00 --> 00:13:01 same mechanism occurs that you've got
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 bombardment which which actually fur
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 further breaks down the further breaks
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 down the the dust Well if uh if if we do
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 end up going to Mars and we are
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 successful with our endeavors there we
00:13:15 --> 00:13:17 can film Twister 3 with Glenn Powell
00:13:17 --> 00:13:23 doing some twisters on Mars
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 Also space nuts to uh to uh get through
00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 the atmosphere It seems like there's
00:13:29 --> 00:13:30 just more and more issues with our
00:13:30 --> 00:13:32 atmosphere and all the space junk that's
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 up there And I even just saw on I don't
00:13:34 --> 00:13:36 know if it was Prime or Netflix whatever
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38 streaming service I was on the other
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 night there's a movie there's a there's
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 a movie out about Space Jock And in this
00:13:44 --> 00:13:47 sci-fi movie they have people who work
00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 in in orbit constantly clearing space
00:13:49 --> 00:13:52 debris But that might not be something
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 that's even a worry because it looks
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 like there's a new technology that can
00:13:57 --> 00:13:59 help us with some of this space debris
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 and junk in our orbit
00:14:01 --> 00:14:05 Uh absolutely that uh I mean this is you
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 know one of the major problems of our
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 era um that the potential for space junk
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 It's uh space junk already exists
00:14:14 --> 00:14:17 There's a lot of stuff up there uh that
00:14:17 --> 00:14:20 is now redundant and quite harmful given
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 that the minimal orbital speed that
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 you're going at is about 8 kilometers/s
00:14:24 --> 00:14:28 about 5 miles per second Uh so um
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 everything is charging around at very
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 high speeds and as you will well know
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 even a fleck of paint can take a chip
00:14:35 --> 00:14:36 out of the window of a space shuttle
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 That very well-known phenomenon uh from
00:14:39 --> 00:14:44 a few decades ago actually uh that so
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 there's at the moment there are just
00:14:46 --> 00:14:49 over 11 active spacecraft in orbit
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 around the earth Most of them are
00:14:51 --> 00:14:54 Starlink satellites but when you look at
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 the debris that is actually tracked
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 stuff that is redundant I don't have the
00:14:59 --> 00:15:00 exact figure now but it's well over
00:15:00 --> 00:15:05 30 items bigger than uh 4 in sorry
00:15:05 --> 00:15:09 four yes 4 in um 100 millm 10 cm And
00:15:10 --> 00:15:12 then when you look at smaller stuff
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 you're in the millions You're really in
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 the millions of bits of debris and it's
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 all damaging Uh and that the main
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 problem is that as soon as you get a
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23 collision between two bits of this stuff
00:15:23 --> 00:15:27 especially if it's sizable in any way uh
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 then you will get more debris being
00:15:29 --> 00:15:33 created and that increases the risk and
00:15:33 --> 00:15:34 that can lead to what's called the
00:15:34 --> 00:15:37 Kesler syndrome where uh everything's
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39 crashing into everything else and you
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 suddenly lose access to space So it's a
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 real problem and one that needs uh
00:15:44 --> 00:15:45 attention and indeed is getting
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47 attention from the world's technologists
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 I just saw a tail walk through the
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 picture there uh behind you Little
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 little dog Speaking of speaking of uh
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 little problems Yes
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 Always on the parallel But yeah I mean
00:16:01 --> 00:16:02 this is super interesting because it's
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 like every I mean almost every something
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 going wrong in space movie starts with
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 this So it's well known from the
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 scientists down to the creatives And so
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 it looks like this um this this uh what
00:16:16 --> 00:16:17 do they call them The bold new weapon
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 against space junk It looks like Percy P
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 E R S E I space Yep that's right Um is a
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27 startup that's helping with these issues
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 Yes that's right So um there is a
00:16:29 --> 00:16:31 backstory to this in that there's been
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 several experiments carried out by both
00:16:35 --> 00:16:38 private um companies and things you know
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 bodies like the European Space Agency to
00:16:40 --> 00:16:42 try and see how you could clean up space
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 and mostly it involves um something like
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 well one of them is uh sending up a
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 spacecraft that uh essentially rendevous
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 with a a satellite that's now redundant
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 whether it's a rocket body or or a you
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 know a communication satellite something
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 that switched off and is now head uh but
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 is a risk because it's up there Uh and
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 if you can then put a throw a grappling
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 iron at it you know going back to the
00:17:04 --> 00:17:06 technology that was used in the Middle
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 Ages uh catch hold of it uh with your
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 hydraulically propelled grappling iron
00:17:12 --> 00:17:16 or whatever it is uh you then uh can
00:17:16 --> 00:17:19 capture it and uh if you have a a a
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 satellite that now has hold of this u
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25 maverick object you can basically apply
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27 braking rockets and make it re-enter so
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 that it burns up and is no longer a
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 problem for collisions But that's a
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 difficult that's quite a tricky problem
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 and it needs you know spacecraft
00:17:36 --> 00:17:38 equipped with quite large amounts of
00:17:38 --> 00:17:41 fuel to do that And so this new idea uh
00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 the one that you've you've highlighted
00:17:43 --> 00:17:46 from Persi Space uh it's it's going to
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 be tested actually early next year It
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 it's quite counterintuitive and takes a
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 while to get your head around how it
00:17:53 --> 00:17:56 works Uh it's called an electronamic
00:17:56 --> 00:18:00 tether It's a ribbon of aluminum maybe
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 more than that Hundreds of meters i.e
00:18:03 --> 00:18:07 hundreds of yards long and only a few
00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 inches or centimeters wide And what
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 happens is that this thing uh gets a
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15 current running up and down it from the
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 the plasma uh in the ionosphere And by
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 that we mean charged particles charged
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 subatomic particles Uh in other words
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 subatomic particles that carry an
00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 electric charge So excuse me So you get
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30 an electric current set up in the tether
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 but that then interacts with the earth's
00:18:33 --> 00:18:34 magnetic field This is the really
00:18:34 --> 00:18:38 cunning bit uh and puts a drag on the on
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 the tether uh it slows it down It starts
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 breaking it So if the tether is attached
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 to in fact it can be attached to a cubat
00:18:47 --> 00:18:48 they're small enough that you can do
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 that This is the thing the size size of
00:18:50 --> 00:18:52 a loaf of bread but you then have to
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 attach the cubat to whatever spacecraft
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 you want to whose orbit you want to
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 change you can actually set things up so
00:19:00 --> 00:19:04 that you um slow down the the uh the
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 Maverick spacecraft uh and essentially
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 make it slow enough that it will start
00:19:10 --> 00:19:12 to reenter the Earth's atmosphere and be
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 burned up and again got out of the way
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 Uh but this is the really cunning bit If
00:19:18 --> 00:19:19 you do it in a slightly different way
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 you can also actually push it into a
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 higher orbit um so that you you can
00:19:25 --> 00:19:28 refurbish a spacecraft one that has run
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 out of its um uh maneuvering fuel so it
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 can't save itself from being uh
00:19:34 --> 00:19:35 swallowed up by the atmosphere anymore
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 You can shove it up to a higher orbit
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 with the same electronamic tether uh and
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 give it a new lease of life It's quite
00:19:43 --> 00:19:45 an amazing promise And and this is the
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 best bit All of this is free It comes
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 with no fuel expenditure It's because
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 you're relying on the natural forces
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 that surround the earth in order to do
00:19:54 --> 00:19:57 this It's a very very clever argument
00:19:57 --> 00:20:01 The question is will it work Yeah What
00:20:01 --> 00:20:02 you're sounding s what you're saying
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 sounds truly just like magic And and I
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 think about that all the time If you
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 were to tell ancient people about even
00:20:09 --> 00:20:11 just the internet or a phone it would
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 have sounded like magic to them and oh
00:20:14 --> 00:20:15 I'm talking to somebody around the world
00:20:15 --> 00:20:16 They would have thought I was a
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 sorceress And and this to me
00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 sounds just amazing And it's so cool
00:20:24 --> 00:20:26 what humans have truly come up with I
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28 mean humanity I'm so proud of us
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 sometimes Sometimes I'm not
00:20:31 --> 00:20:33 Sometimes sometimes I look at what
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 humanity is collectively doing and it's
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 just so awe inspiring And I just love
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 being around these people who are doing
00:20:39 --> 00:20:43 incredible things
00:20:43 --> 00:20:49 3 2 1 space nuts But sometimes we mess
00:20:49 --> 00:20:53 it up and sometimes our models and
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55 predictions get it wrong which looks
00:20:55 --> 00:21:00 like that was the case with uh some some
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 models that they created with these
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 galaxies there our models either the
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 models got it wrong or the galaxies got
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 it wrong But our our prediction says
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 that they were going to continue growing
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 but in reality the galaxies stopped
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 growing sooner than the models predicted
00:21:18 --> 00:21:22 That's right Um a fascinating story once
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 again comes from uh I guess the poster
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 child of spacecraft at the moment at
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29 least for astronomers the James Web
00:21:29 --> 00:21:33 Space Telescope uh which has um as as
00:21:34 --> 00:21:36 you know I think we talked about this a
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 week or so ago uh has been concentrating
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 on as as well as many other objects in
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 space but looking very much at very
00:21:45 --> 00:21:47 distant galaxies because that is our
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 probe to the early universe
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 Uh whenever we look into space we're
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 always looking back in time Uh we are
00:21:54 --> 00:21:57 looking back in this case many many
00:21:57 --> 00:21:59 billions of years Uh we think the
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 universe is 13.8 billion years old So
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 nothing can look back further than that
00:22:03 --> 00:22:04 We do see something at that age but it's
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 the flash of the big bang Uh but those
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 galaxies which came into being we think
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11 within the first few hundred million
00:22:11 --> 00:22:15 years of uh the the big bang Uh the big
00:22:15 --> 00:22:17 bang generated hydrogen Hydrogen forms
00:22:17 --> 00:22:20 stars Stars form galaxies And so we
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 basically have been looking for galaxies
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25 in the in the early history of the
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 universe kind of to try and understand
00:22:28 --> 00:22:29 when these first stars occurred and when
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 they switched on And the basically
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 what's happened is we've uncovered one
00:22:36 --> 00:22:40 after another puzzles uh really quite
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 serious puzzles for our understanding of
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 how galaxies work And this new one uh
00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 it's another conundrum uh comes about
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 because we see galaxies when the
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 universe was less than a billion years
00:22:54 --> 00:22:56 old But we see galaxies that look as
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 though they should be several billion
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 years old And that's because they've
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 used up all their hydrogen in forming uh
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 forming um the stars star Galaxies do
00:23:08 --> 00:23:09 form stars because the hydrogen is the
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 raw material of stars and uh certainly
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 our galaxy is actually still forming
00:23:14 --> 00:23:17 stars But some we know formed stars used
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 up all the hydrogen and became
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 effectively dead galaxies Now we thought
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 those had to be going for billions of
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 years in order to get like that But
00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 several have been found now in the early
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 universe which looks as though they're
00:23:32 --> 00:23:35 much older than they can be because
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 they've you know they've only existed
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 for a few hundred mill uh few yes a few
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42 hundred million years Uh there's some
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 really nice nmanllete with this um uh
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 Heidi because um uh like u you know
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 astronomers tend to like forming nice
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 acronyms uh and there is a a survey
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 called which is called red unknowns
00:23:56 --> 00:23:59 bright infrared extragalactic survey uh
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 which abbreviates to rubies and I quite
00:24:02 --> 00:24:04 like that abbreviation So one of these
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 galaxies is called rubies
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 udsqgz7 That's um you know a nice yeah
00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 just encapsulates everything about it I
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 guess the rubies uh is uh echoing what
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17 these galaxy look like galaxies look
00:24:17 --> 00:24:18 like They're redder than the star
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 forming galaxies which tendency uh who
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 have the tendency to be blue So another
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 puzzle in the early universe which we
00:24:25 --> 00:24:27 have to get our heads around in order to
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 understand really what's going on in
00:24:29 --> 00:24:34 that distant era of our past
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 Do you think and I I almost like you
00:24:37 --> 00:24:38 know it's almost scary to think this but
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 do you think that we could discover so
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 much in space with James Webb and
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 looking deeper and deeper that it
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 challenges everything that we already
00:24:47 --> 00:24:48 know about the solar system and and
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 sorry the universe It's it's almost like
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 that already Um it's it the the web
00:24:54 --> 00:24:59 telescope has um really caused a lot of
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 head scratching in terms of how you make
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 these observations fit with our models
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07 of what the early universe was like um
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10 some people and a few of our question
00:25:10 --> 00:25:11 you know when when we've had Q&A
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 sessions in space notes we occasionally
00:25:14 --> 00:25:15 get questions from listeners who've
00:25:15 --> 00:25:17 heard this sort of thing and say well
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 there's something wrong here because
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21 some of these galaxies must have been
00:25:21 --> 00:25:25 formed before the big bang uh and that
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 can't happen uh because there was
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30 nothing before the big bang not even
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 space probably uh and so what we're what
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 we're talking about is not a conundrum
00:25:36 --> 00:25:38 that says Yes we're seeing galaxies that
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 are too old for the universe The
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 conundrum is galaxies evolve much more
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 quickly than we expected them to They
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 they come into being uh and as we've
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 seen here some of them almost enter old
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 age when they're only a few hundred
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 million years old And that flies in the
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 face of conventional wisdom It means
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00 that our models of galaxy formation
00:26:00 --> 00:26:02 which we thought we had sort of fairly
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 well uh neat and tidied up uh or neatly
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08 and tidied up No that doesn't make sense
00:26:08 --> 00:26:09 either Anyway you know what I'm trying
00:26:09 --> 00:26:11 to say We thought we'd we thought we'd
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 understood them Uh and clearly we don't
00:26:14 --> 00:26:15 There are gaps in our knowledge that the
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 James Web telescope is uncovering almost
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 every day And it's a very stimulating
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 time for astronomy and particularly
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 those theoretical astronomers who've got
00:26:24 --> 00:26:25 to get their head around why it's like
00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 this and how this all works Ask me every
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 semester of grad school I I finish up
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 the semester I'm like "Okay finals went
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 well I feel like I know what I'm doing
00:26:34 --> 00:26:36 Next semester should be a cakewalk." And
00:26:36 --> 00:26:38 then I walk into next semester and I was
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 like "Oh uh this is I feel completely
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 inadequate again and I don't understand
00:26:42 --> 00:26:47 any of this." But um do astronomers and
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 cosmologists ever talk about the
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 multiverse theory and how I don't know
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 if there could be you know galaxies
00:26:57 --> 00:27:00 clashing and colliding from
00:27:00 --> 00:27:04 other universes and the big bang of our
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 universe is timed differently than
00:27:07 --> 00:27:08 others Is that something that's been
00:27:08 --> 00:27:12 tossed around Yeah there's a huge amount
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 of um activity in the what you might
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 call the specul the speculative sphere
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 uh about the multiverse Um if I remember
00:27:22 --> 00:27:26 rightly the I the term was coined by uh
00:27:26 --> 00:27:29 Martin Ree now Lord Ree uh who's the
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 astronomer royal in in Britain Uh the
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 astronomer royal I think was the first
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 person to point out that um the universe
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 that we see around us is very well tuned
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 for things like stars and planets to
00:27:44 --> 00:27:46 form for galaxies to form and for life
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 to form Uh and that you only have to
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 change the fundamental constants of the
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54 universe a tiny bit either way and none
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 of that happens And I think that was
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 what led to the idea that maybe our
00:27:59 --> 00:28:03 universe is just one of many uh which
00:28:03 --> 00:28:07 have different uh physical constants and
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09 we happen to be in the one that has the
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 physical constants that allow life to
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14 happen which is you know it's kind of
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 self-fulfilling almost Uh we're not in
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 one of the other ones because life
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 wouldn't happen there Uh so that that
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 was the start of it There's been other
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 ideas that speculate about um multiple
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29 universes One of them and really neat
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31 one actually Yeah you may know there's
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33 there's four fundamental forces in
00:28:33 --> 00:28:36 nature The strong and weak nuclear
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38 forces The electromagnetic force which
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 is light and radio and gravity But
00:28:41 --> 00:28:44 gravity is hundreds of it's actually
00:28:44 --> 00:28:46 billions upon billions upon billions
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 upon billions of times fainter uh sorry
00:28:49 --> 00:28:51 uh weaker than the other ones It's not
00:28:51 --> 00:28:53 fainter it's weaker So gravity is very
00:28:53 --> 00:28:56 very weak even though we feel it quite
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 you know noticeably if we fall over and
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 get pulled down to to earth with a bang
00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 Uh but so gravity is very weak And some
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04 people have speculated that that might
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 be because gravity leaks out into other
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 universes if we've got a multiverse The
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 problem is I mean the word universe
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 itself means all that we can ever see or
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 detect or measure Uh and as soon as you
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 start talking about other universes
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 you've you've thrown that definition
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 away And it's hard to see where they
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 would exist unless there are higher
00:29:26 --> 00:29:29 dimensions that we do not yet understand
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 Uh and we might have you know a fifth or
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 a sixth or a 20th dimension which
00:29:34 --> 00:29:36 contains other universes And then you
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38 have the idea of a multiverse What's
00:29:38 --> 00:29:41 difficult to see is how a galaxy from
00:29:41 --> 00:29:42 one of those could stray into our
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 universe uh because uh otherwise it
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 becomes part of the universe and
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 probably would have formed with with you
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 know with with our universe and our
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 galaxies The one the one thing that
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 people point to as an observational tool
00:29:58 --> 00:30:01 is this microwave background This
00:30:01 --> 00:30:03 background of radiation that we see and
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 understand as being the flash of the big
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 bang that we're seeing so far in look
00:30:08 --> 00:30:09 back time that we can still see it
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 because that has a pattern imprinted on
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 it uh which are hot slightly warmer and
00:30:14 --> 00:30:16 cooler zones of temperature And some
00:30:16 --> 00:30:18 people think they can see patterns in
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 that that they think might have come
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 from a different universe But that is
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 very very speculative Very speculative
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 indeed That's more of the the
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 mathematicians realm is to go in define
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 some of these things mathematically
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34 before we can even really define it
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 theoretically And then you know maybe a
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 thousand years from now we'll have the
00:30:39 --> 00:30:43 technology to better understand this But
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45 in the meantime I guess the only way
00:30:45 --> 00:30:47 that I think this could theoretically
00:30:47 --> 00:30:48 make sense and this is just fun little
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 brain candy is you know my my pencil
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 leaves behind its in my 3D my
00:30:56 --> 00:30:57 three-dimensional pencil leaves behind
00:30:57 --> 00:31:00 its mark on a piece of paper And that's
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02 only because the lead is that crossover
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 And so there could be I don't know
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 crossover bits of matter that can bleed
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 in to different dimensions Yeah The nice
00:31:11 --> 00:31:13 thing about your analogy is that you
00:31:13 --> 00:31:15 you're quite right Your pencil is it's
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17 not a pencil but it looks a bit like
00:31:17 --> 00:31:20 that It's a three-dimensional object You
00:31:20 --> 00:31:21 write on paper which is a
00:31:21 --> 00:31:24 two-dimensional object And so you've got
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 a threedimensional object interacting
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 with a two-dimensional object And that
00:31:29 --> 00:31:34 could be a nice model for what the you
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 know what the multiverse is like Um that
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41 and in fact it's not too far uh out We
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 can sort of almost extend it as well
00:31:43 --> 00:31:46 because excuse me here we have a piece
00:31:46 --> 00:31:47 of
00:31:47 --> 00:31:51 paper Um Oh fantastic Now the demos Yeah
00:31:51 --> 00:31:53 So uh I don't know whether anybody else
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55 can see this If you're listening I'm
00:31:55 --> 00:31:56 sorry about this but I'm holding up a
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 sheet of paper uh we can all envision a
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 piece of paper actually turns out to be
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 two pieces of paper and that's the idea
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 of something called M theory M theory is
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 membrane and so we think one sheet of
00:32:10 --> 00:32:12 paper is a membrane on which our
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 universe is is imprinted and another
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17 sheet of paper might be a membrane with
00:32:17 --> 00:32:19 another universe on it and the idea is
00:32:19 --> 00:32:21 that it's collisions between these
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 membranes that cause big bangs Uh this
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27 is known as the epyrootic theory of the
00:32:27 --> 00:32:31 universe to give it a name What's freaky
00:32:31 --> 00:32:33 about that is if it's true these
00:32:34 --> 00:32:35 membranes are only a few millimeters
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39 apart and so they might things happening
00:32:39 --> 00:32:41 all the time Maybe there are Yes Yes
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 that's right So take that one away and
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 uh think about it But what a good
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 analogy though You did you did Yeah you
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 hit on the right I watch a lot of sci-fi
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 they uh they try and dumb it down for
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 their uh their
00:32:55 --> 00:32:59 watchers their viewers Um you know I I
00:32:59 --> 00:33:01 I've always thought of this ever since I
00:33:01 --> 00:33:03 was a little kid with the Men in Black
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 the original movie the very end scene
00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 where they zoom all the way out of our
00:33:09 --> 00:33:11 Earth and our g in our solar system and
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 galaxy and universe and it keeps zooming
00:33:13 --> 00:33:14 out and it keeps zooming out and it
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17 keeps zooming out and then eventually um
00:33:17 --> 00:33:19 everything that we could conceptualize
00:33:19 --> 00:33:21 in our known universe was just a marble
00:33:22 --> 00:33:24 in an alien's hand and they were just
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 playing with marbles and and it's just
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 you know the idea that it just
00:33:28 --> 00:33:29 continually
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 exponentially if you just could open up
00:33:32 --> 00:33:33 the aperture infinitely there would
00:33:33 --> 00:33:35 always be something bigger and bigger
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 and bigger and and I think that
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 mathematically they've I've just heard
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 this I have no idea but I think
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 mathematically some of the formulas to
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 look at some of the smallest
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 known things and the biggest things are
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 similar I think that falls into quantum
00:33:51 --> 00:33:55 theory Yeah that's right Well yes that's
00:33:55 --> 00:33:58 that's correct uh quantum I mean when
00:33:58 --> 00:33:59 you look at the mathematics of
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01 relativity and quantum theory which are
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 the two sort of theories that you know
00:34:04 --> 00:34:06 one one governs the very small one
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 governs the very large u some of those
00:34:09 --> 00:34:11 equations do look similar they're all
00:34:11 --> 00:34:13 horrendous mathematics was not my strong
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 point at university I'm afraid oh me
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 neither but now oh but but what if and
00:34:19 --> 00:34:20 you know I don't think these are the
00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 questions we'll ever answer but what if
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 it was just a big circle how crazy would
00:34:25 --> 00:34:26 that
00:34:26 --> 00:34:28 Those are the things we may never find
00:34:28 --> 00:34:30 out though but we will continue to
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 explore and answer those questions every
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 week here on Space Nuts Fred did you
00:34:36 --> 00:34:38 have anything else you wanted to add to
00:34:38 --> 00:34:43 our conversation today Um not only that
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 um we have very exciting time at the
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 moment in in human space flight We've
00:34:48 --> 00:34:51 just seen the orbital fry sorry orbital
00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 flight of the Framm 2 mission a
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 privately operated space mission uh that
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 took humans into a polar orbit for the
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00 first time one that crosses both the
00:35:00 --> 00:35:02 North and the South Pole Uh those
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 astronauts returned a few days ago uh
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 with lots of tales to tell We might
00:35:07 --> 00:35:09 cover that in a future is edition of
00:35:09 --> 00:35:11 Space Nuts It's very exciting Thank you
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13 so much Fred It was great talking to you
00:35:13 --> 00:35:15 today Always a pleasure Heidi Thank you
00:35:15 --> 00:35:18 very much for your time too Space Nuts
00:35:18 --> 00:35:20 You'll be listening to the Space Nuts
00:35:20 --> 00:35:22 podcast
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