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Lava Tubes on Venus, Elon Musk's New Target, and China's Lunar Ambitions
In this intriguing episode of Space Nuts , hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson explore a variety of captivating topics that span our solar system. From the surprising discovery of lava tubes on Venus to Elon Musk's shifting focus from Mars to the Moon, this episode is packed with astronomical insights and updates on space exploration.
Episode Highlights:
- Lava Tubes on Venus: A new study suggests the existence of massive lava tubes on Venus, with evidence pointing to structures that could reach up to a kilometer wide. Andrew and Fred discuss the implications of this discovery and how it was derived from radar data collected by the Magellan spacecraft.
- Elon Musk's Change of Plans: The hosts delve into Elon Musk's evolving vision for space travel, as he shifts his focus from colonizing Mars to prioritizing lunar missions. They discuss the logistical challenges of Mars travel and the advantages of a Moon base.
- China's Reusable Booster Test: The China Manned Space Agency has successfully tested a reusable booster and a new spacecraft designed for lunar missions. Andrew and Fred analyze the significance of this achievement in the context of the current space race.
- Titan's Mysterious Past: The episode concludes with a look at Saturn's moon Titan, which may have formed from a collision between two moons. The hosts explore the implications of this theory and what it means for future exploration of Titan.
For more Space Nuts, including our continuously updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website. (https://www.spacenutspodcast.com/) Follow us on social media at SpaceNutsPod on Facebook, Instagram, and more. We love engaging with our community, so be sure to drop us a message or comment on your favorite platform.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/31768142?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and
00:00:04 --> 00:00:07 space science. My name is Andrew Dunley.
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 It's great to have your company yet
00:00:09 --> 00:00:11 again. And if you're a brand new
00:00:11 --> 00:00:13 listener, welcome along. Hope you enjoy
00:00:13 --> 00:00:16 it and hope you stick around. On this
00:00:16 --> 00:00:19 episode, we will be focusing on a whole
00:00:19 --> 00:00:22 bunch of different types of stuff. Uh
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 the first one is a new paper that's been
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 released suggesting that there are lava
00:00:27 --> 00:00:30 tubes on Venus. How do they know? We
00:00:30 --> 00:00:32 can't even see it. Well, they've got
00:00:32 --> 00:00:33 some evidence that they think points the
00:00:33 --> 00:00:37 finger at Venus's lava tubes. Uh Elon
00:00:37 --> 00:00:39 Musk, who has for many years been
00:00:39 --> 00:00:42 saying, "I'm going to send people to
00:00:42 --> 00:00:44 Mars and they're going to live there."
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 He's changed his mind. He's got a new
00:00:46 --> 00:00:48 target. We'll tell you about that. Uh
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 China has tested a reusable booster and
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 Saturn's moon Titan might have
00:00:54 --> 00:00:56 previously been two moons. We'll talk
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 about all of that on this episode of
00:00:59 --> 00:01:00 Space Nuts.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:05 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
00:01:05 --> 00:01:06 Ignition sequence start.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:07 >> Space nuts.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 >> 5 4 3 2
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:01:12 --> 00:01:13 >> Space Nuts.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 >> And joining us again in his spare time
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 um is Professor Fred Watson, astropher
00:01:21 --> 00:01:23 at large. Hello Fred.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:25 >> Hello Andrew. Um very good to see you.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 And I see that the launches are going
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 well behind your head there. It looks
00:01:29 --> 00:01:29 great.
00:01:29 --> 00:01:32 >> Yes, that's that's a photo I took inside
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 the sphere in Las Vegas. We watched a a
00:01:34 --> 00:01:37 presentation there uh about a year ago
00:01:37 --> 00:01:41 now. And uh one of the the pictures was
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 all these rockets taking off. Um it it
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 it looked so nice. I took the photo and
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 there they are. Yeah, a bunch of them.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 That's humanity leaving Earth because we
00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 made such a mess of it they couldn't
00:01:52 --> 00:01:53 leave here anymore. That's what that
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 represents.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 It's um yeah quite a it was a really
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 interesting story and people people came
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 back to visit Earth as tourists because
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04 and they had to wear spac suits because
00:02:04 --> 00:02:06 you couldn't breathe here anymore.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:08 >> Um that's a really good segue into one
00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 of our stories today. So
00:02:10 --> 00:02:10 >> yeah,
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 >> well thought.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:13 >> Yes. Well, let's let's get started
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16 because uh our very first story involves
00:02:16 --> 00:02:19 a planet not unlike Earth at some time
00:02:19 --> 00:02:22 in its history, but it's suffering a
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 runaway greenhouse effect and it is now
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 um unlivable.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 But we are trying so hard to learn as
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 much as we can about Venus and because
00:02:32 --> 00:02:35 it's shrouded in cloud and you can't see
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 the surface, we we have to use um
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 different techniques to to see what's
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 going on. And a new paper has just been
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 published suggesting that there are lava
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 tubes on this particular world. This
00:02:48 --> 00:02:49 should not come as a surprise because we
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52 know it's got so many volcanoes. We
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 don't know if they're still active, but
00:02:54 --> 00:02:56 we know it's got it's got more than
00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 anywhere else, hasn't it? It has. You're
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 absolutely right. Um it's, if I remember
00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 rightly, the numbers 2. Gosh.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:07 >> Uh for Earth, it's something like 1.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:09 I think that's um from statistics I
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 wrote down for a book once once upon a
00:03:12 --> 00:03:16 time. Um the um uh but but you're
00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 absolutely right. We simply don't know
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 whether any of those uh 2 volcanoes
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 are actually still active. Uh we you and
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 I have spoken about this before and
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 there's sort of circumstantial evidence
00:03:27 --> 00:03:29 that there might still be activity or
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 there might have been activity within
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 the within the last million years which
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 sounds like a rather large window except
00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 it may well be that you know people have
00:03:38 --> 00:03:40 thought that uh these things shut down
00:03:40 --> 00:03:42 three and a half billion years ago. So
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 if there's been activity within the last
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 million years then it's still happening.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 That's the bottom line. Um but yeah, so
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 you're quite right. In a body as
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 volcanically
00:03:53 --> 00:03:57 um not active perhaps, but with a with a
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 past history of being active, you might
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 expect uh to find lava tubes. And you
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 and I have both walked through lava
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 tubes in Hawaii
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 >> um and um experienced what they're like.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 And my recollection of those is that
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 there are just a few meters in diameter,
00:04:13 --> 00:04:15 maybe three or four meters, perhaps
00:04:15 --> 00:04:18 five. Well, the news with this lava tube
00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 is that it is about a kilometer wide.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:22 >> Wow.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:23 >> Really?
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 >> Yeah, it's a big one.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:26 >> Wow.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 >> Where does the evidence come from?
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 Because you're quite right. We cannot
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 directly see the surface of Venus.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 Although I should give a shout out to my
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 late friend and colleague David Allen.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:43 Uh sadly passed away in 1994,
00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 I think.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:48 um uh he was at the age of only 47. He
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 actually observed for the first time the
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 surface of Venus from a groundbased
00:04:53 --> 00:04:54 telescope. It was the Anglo Australian
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 telescope here in New South Wales. Um
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 and he was using infrared radiation and
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 he found evidence that he could actually
00:05:02 --> 00:05:03 penetrate to the surface. Now there
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 wasn't actually very much to see. Um and
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 um uh most of what we know about the
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 surface of Venus has come from a
00:05:10 --> 00:05:13 spacecraft called Mellin uh which was in
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 orbit between 1990 and 1992 around the
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 planet Venus. It was a NASA spacecraft
00:05:20 --> 00:05:21 and had something called synthetic
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 aperture radar on board.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 Collected a huge trove of data on the
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 surface of Venus. It's how we know there
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 are volcanoes there. It's how we know uh
00:05:31 --> 00:05:34 that you know there are rocky features.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:37 uh lots and lots of different uh what
00:05:37 --> 00:05:39 you might call ignous rock features.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 Those are the ones that are created by
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 volcanoes. Uh and it's now a reanalysis
00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 of some of those data by a group uh at
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 the remote sensing laboratory at the
00:05:50 --> 00:05:54 University of Torrento in uh Italy. Um
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 they have uh coordinated the reanalysis
00:05:57 --> 00:06:00 of the data and basically have looked
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 for evidence of what are called
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 skylights. And a skylight is a hole in
00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 the roof of a of a lava tube as you'd
00:06:09 --> 00:06:12 expect. It kind of gives it away. And
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 I'm sure I I recall seeing skylights in
00:06:14 --> 00:06:18 lava tubes in Hawaii as well. Um but
00:06:18 --> 00:06:22 what they found is evidence not just for
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 a roof collapse which could be you know
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 any old cave uh under the surface whose
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 roof was collapsed but to to show that
00:06:31 --> 00:06:35 there is uh there there is a a sort of
00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 um a channel on on either side of that
00:06:38 --> 00:06:42 collapsed roof. Um, in other words, a,
00:06:42 --> 00:06:46 you know, a a a subsurface cavity that
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 is is going
00:06:49 --> 00:06:50 backwards and forwards, if I can put it
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 that way, as well as just downwards. Uh,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 so what you're talking about is, yes, a
00:06:55 --> 00:06:59 lava tube. Um, lava tubes, uh, as you
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 and I probably both aware, uh, are
00:07:02 --> 00:07:05 formed by flowing lava. Uh but what
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 happens is the the lava sort of develops
00:07:09 --> 00:07:13 a a crust uh as the the lava flow is
00:07:13 --> 00:07:17 carried on. Uh and that crust of solid
00:07:17 --> 00:07:21 lava basically insulates the hot lava
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 that's flowing from its uh frozen
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 surroundings. Yeah. Uh and so solidified
00:07:26 --> 00:07:29 surroundings. And so you've got the
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 molten rock just keeps on moving. Uh and
00:07:32 --> 00:07:34 then eventually when the eruption stops,
00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 the lava drains away and you've got an
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 empty tunnel that fence the lava tube.
00:07:37 --> 00:07:38 >> Yes.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 >> Uh and so that's what we're talking
00:07:40 --> 00:07:44 about here. The roof is thought to be
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 pretty deep. This all comes from these
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 radar measurements. At least 150 m
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 thick. And so then you've got an empty
00:07:52 --> 00:07:58 void that goes down uh at least 375 m.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:02 uh and the uh as I said the the the the
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 width or the the estimated diameter of
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 this lava tube is a kilometer. Uh now
00:08:08 --> 00:08:13 that's very very big. Yes. Uh it's um
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 and as there's a very nice article about
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 this on space daily and they say uh that
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 is at the upper end of of what
00:08:21 --> 00:08:23 scientists have suggested or observed
00:08:23 --> 00:08:25 for similar structures on the moon and
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 above the typical sizes expected on
00:08:28 --> 00:08:31 Earth or Mars. Uh but the uh the
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 research team have commented that this
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 is consistent with Venus having lava
00:08:36 --> 00:08:38 channels that are much larger and
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 probably longer than those on the other
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43 planets or the other the the other lava
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 rich worlds like the moon and the planet
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 Mars. So really interesting stuff. Um
00:08:49 --> 00:08:51 are we going to go and explore one of
00:08:51 --> 00:08:52 these? Well, that's a really good
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 question given the temperature is what
00:08:54 --> 00:08:58 is it 450 Celsius or melts.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 >> Uh and um yeah,
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 >> be much cooler in the lava tube. I
00:09:03 --> 00:09:04 reckon
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 >> probably would might drop at least 5° in
00:09:06 --> 00:09:07 the lava tube.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 >> You'd be right. Yeah,
00:09:09 --> 00:09:11 >> there is um there's a suggestion from
00:09:11 --> 00:09:13 these researchers and I think it's based
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 on sort of circumstantial evidence that
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 some of these conduits in the same
00:09:18 --> 00:09:20 region as the the hole that they found
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 could could run for well they suggest at
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 least 45 kilometers.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:24 >> Wow.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 >> Um and uh yeah, that's quite quite
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 remarkable. These are lava tubes, you
00:09:29 --> 00:09:30 know, the granddaddies of all lava
00:09:30 --> 00:09:31 tubes.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 >> Yes. Well, they're coming out of a uh
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 volcano called Nyx Mons,
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 >> which is a a shield volcano like Olympus
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 Mons. It's not as big, but it is it is
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 rather huge. It's um about 362
00:09:46 --> 00:09:49 kilometers across is this particular
00:09:49 --> 00:09:52 volcano according to the uh the article
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 I I've just found. But uh yeah, Nyxmon's
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 named after a um Greek goddess
00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 apparently
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 >> of of darkness, isn't it? Isn't it? I it
00:10:00 --> 00:10:02 would be Yeah. Nick
00:10:02 --> 00:10:03 >> Mount Darkness or something.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:06 >> Yeah. Yeah. I I do have a recollection
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07 that Nyx has something to do with the
00:10:07 --> 00:10:10 underworld or something to that effect.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 But uh yeah. Um lava tubes on Venus,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 lava tubes on the moon, lava tubes on
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 Earth, lava tubes on Mars. They're
00:10:18 --> 00:10:19 everywhere, Fred.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:21 >> Well, yes. Who gets excited about lava
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 tubes when they're that common?
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 >> Well, if you're on Venus, cuz they're so
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 big. and and you do if you're going to
00:10:27 --> 00:10:29 sort of create a colony on Mars or even
00:10:29 --> 00:10:32 the moon just to protect them from
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 radiation. So, uh yeah, the these things
00:10:35 --> 00:10:37 were put there for a reason. See, that's
00:10:37 --> 00:10:38 what it was.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 >> I'm sure somebody would say that.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 >> Yeah, maybe. So, but um yeah, great
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 story and uh also good to see that some
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 of that old data dating back
00:10:48 --> 00:10:48 >> Yeah.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 >> over 30 years has been reanalyzed and
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 we've been able to learn more from it.
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 Uh, I'm loving that that's happening
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 more and more these days. If you want to
00:10:58 --> 00:10:59 read about it, uh, as Fred said, it's on
00:10:59 --> 00:11:02 spaceaily.com or you can read the paper
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 proper from start to finish. It's only
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 about 5 pages at Nature
00:11:07 --> 00:11:08 Communications.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 Now, Fred, we we talked about Mars. We
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 might as well go straight to that
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 planet. uh because uh in the past uh we
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 have talked about plans by a certain
00:11:18 --> 00:11:23 Elon Musk uh to send people to Mars and
00:11:23 --> 00:11:26 colonize. Um now I know how you feel
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 about colonization of anything beyond
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 Earth. Uh but it looks like he's decided
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 probably not time to consider that.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 Let's let's bite off something we can
00:11:37 --> 00:11:38 chew.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:43 >> Uh exactly. Um and not before time.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:47 So, you know, Elon's Mars aspirations go
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 back 20 years or more, I think, to right
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 to the beginning of SpaceX. And of
00:11:52 --> 00:11:53 course, his main reason for developing
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 the Starship was to be able to uh
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 transport large numbers of people to the
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 planet Mars. And so, he has successfully
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 developed Starship and it um is still
00:12:05 --> 00:12:08 under test. Uh we're I think we're on
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 test number 18's coming up if I remember
00:12:11 --> 00:12:12 rightly of the whole Starship package
00:12:12 --> 00:12:16 with the Falcon Super Heavy uh and the
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 um uh the and the Starship itself which
00:12:19 --> 00:12:24 is the upper stage. Uh but that uh so
00:12:24 --> 00:12:26 that's it's not quite ready, but it's
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 certainly getting there. Uh but the
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 penny has finally dropped that it's a
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 lot harder to go to Mars than it is to
00:12:33 --> 00:12:34 the moon.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 >> Exactly. and he he has a deal with NASA.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 He's one of the two companies that is uh
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 um competing for the rights to land or
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 to be the landing vehicle on the moon
00:12:45 --> 00:12:50 for the artimus 3 um and beyond the in
00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 other words the lunar program. Uh the
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 other company is is Blue Origin with
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 Jeff Bezos. Uh they've got a lunar
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 lander that looks a lot more sensible in
00:13:00 --> 00:13:02 many ways than Starship. Starship's a
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 huge thing to land it on the moon. If
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 you get things wrong, you've got a big
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 disaster on your hands. Anyway, um that
00:13:08 --> 00:13:12 I think has what has focused Elon again
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 on the moon rather than Mars. Plus the
00:13:15 --> 00:13:19 fact that um as it he's pointed out in
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 he sent out a a text on this or a or a
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 blog or social media thingo uh which
00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 said
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 >> we had it on X. It might have been X.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:33 Yes, it's funny you should say that.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:36 Anyway, he's he's suggesting that one of
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38 the reasons is that you can you can go
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 to the moon every 10 days. Uh you can
00:13:41 --> 00:13:45 only go to Mars uh every 26 months. Uh
00:13:45 --> 00:13:46 plus you've got a six-month journey
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 there, whereas you can probably do it in
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 three or four days for the moon. Um, and
00:13:51 --> 00:13:56 in some senses it gives you the same
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 outcome for the main reason that Elon
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 wanted to go to Mars, which was to
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 provide a lifeboat for the inhabitants
00:14:04 --> 00:14:08 of planet Earth. Um Elon decided a long
00:14:08 --> 00:14:10 time ago uh like the spacecraft behind
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 you at the moment uh that the earth was
00:14:13 --> 00:14:16 doomed uh and um that we needed
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 somewhere else to go to ensure the
00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 survival of homo sapiens. Um that's a in
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 in many ways is a is a a lordable um
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 aspiration. But then his next thought
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 was going and trampling all over Mars.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:34 Uh but I think just the I mean you and I
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36 have been talking about this for a long
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 time how difficult it is going to be to
00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 put humans on Mars. Uh just because of
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 the journey there at least 6 months you
00:14:45 --> 00:14:46 can't come back until you've waited
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 another 6 months or so until the moon
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 and sorry the earth and Mars are in the
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 right uh position relative to one
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 another and then you've got a six-month
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 journey back. It's just such a difficult
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 um venture to imagine. And plus, you've
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 got a pretty hostile environment when
00:15:02 --> 00:15:04 you're there. The moon's hostile, too,
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 but it's a lot nearer. And you know, in
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 an emergency, as we know from uh Apollo
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 13, you can get your astronauts back.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:12 >> Yes.
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 >> So, it's that's the it's like an
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 epiphany, which I'm delighted to see to
00:15:17 --> 00:15:18 be honest.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:20 >> Yeah. Coming back to reality.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22 >> I think it's a logical decision. Uh the
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 day will come when we do send people to
00:15:25 --> 00:15:27 Mars, but I think
00:15:27 --> 00:15:27 >> that's right.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 >> It's a lot further off than uh Elon was
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 hoping and he's already passed a couple
00:15:32 --> 00:15:34 of the deadlines. So
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 >> Oh, yeah. indeed. Yes.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 >> It was going to be 2024 when they
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 started talking about this in 2016.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:41 >> Yes.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 >> And I think most people thought then
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 that was probably, you know, shooting
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 too high um or too far.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 >> Do you remember Mars One? the uh the guy
00:15:51 --> 00:15:54 who conned everybody into training for a
00:15:54 --> 00:15:56 one-way journey to Mars, which was going
00:15:56 --> 00:16:00 to use uh SpaceX vehicles. So,
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 >> uh Elon was kind of in on that.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06 >> Yeah. Um well, it one day it will
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 happen. Um yes,
00:16:09 --> 00:16:10 >> I think we've got to get it all sorted
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 out for the moon first and
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 >> exactly then then we can springboard to
00:16:15 --> 00:16:18 Mars and who knows where beyond that.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:21 Um, but you know, it's going to take
00:16:21 --> 00:16:22 time and you got to have the right
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 equipment and I don't think we've really
00:16:24 --> 00:16:29 got the gear to do a journey to Mars
00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 yet. There's so much about the human
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34 body you got to take into account. Not
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 just the life support, but you got to
00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 consider that um, you know, they're
00:16:37 --> 00:16:41 going to be up there for at least what,
00:16:41 --> 00:16:45 18 months, something like that. Um,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 yeah, it's a long time. You're going to
00:16:47 --> 00:16:48 be away for at least 18 months. That's
00:16:48 --> 00:16:49 right.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:50 >> Yeah. So, your your body's going to be
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 affected by that because the gravity
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 that you enjoy and take for granted on
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 Earth that keeps your body the way it is
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 won't be there. So, yeah, all these
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 things um once once they've they've
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07 perfected um artificial gravity in
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 space, uh then we might start seeing
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 movement towards Mars.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 >> Yeah, we're not there yet. Uh, you can
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 read that story at spaceaily.com.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21 This is Spacenuts with Andrew Dunley and
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 Professor Fred Watson.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:25 Let's take a little break from the show
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00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 base here the angle has landed
00:19:37 --> 00:19:38 >> space nuts.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 >> The next story brings us back to the
00:19:40 --> 00:19:42 space race and of course we've been
00:19:42 --> 00:19:44 talking with much excitement about the
00:19:44 --> 00:19:48 prospect of Artemus 2 uh taking
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 astronauts around the moon, four of them
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53 and bringing them back safely to Earth.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 They won't be landing or walking around
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 on the surface in this case, but uh they
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 are delayed, but getting closer to a
00:20:01 --> 00:20:05 liftoff, we hope. In the meantime,
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 there's another space agency that is
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 very very keen to put people on the moon
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 and that's uh that's the China space
00:20:13 --> 00:20:16 agency, the China man space agency. Uh
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 and they have just tested their own
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 version of a reusable booster.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:24 Indeed, they have. In fact, they've done
00:20:24 --> 00:20:26 a double test uh Andrew. So, they've
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 already demonstrated uh that I think
00:20:29 --> 00:20:33 it's their Long March 10 rocket uh can
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 be returned uh safely back to Earth. Uh
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 so, the the idea of reusable boosters
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 goes back once again to Elon in 2015
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 when the first Falcon uh returned safely
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 to Earth to be reused. And now that's
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 the normal way they do it. And so uh and
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55 it will be the same with the Starship uh
00:20:55 --> 00:20:59 super heavy booster. Um so it's it's a
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 sort of um one company has has basically
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 nailed it. Uh but another number of
00:21:05 --> 00:21:08 other companies are doing the same or
00:21:08 --> 00:21:09 attempting the same thing. Blue Origin
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 is one of them. Jeff Bezos's company,
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 they've had a success as well. And the
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 China man space agency has also uh
00:21:18 --> 00:21:22 tested reusable boosters. And the latest
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 test is a kind of double test because
00:21:25 --> 00:21:28 not only have they tested the reusable
00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 booster, they have tested their new uh
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 spacecraft which is the one intended to
00:21:35 --> 00:21:38 take uh tyonauts to the moon. Uh it's
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 called Mang Xiao. If I remember rightly
00:21:41 --> 00:21:44 that means uh something dream I think. I
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 can't remember what the exact
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 translation is but it's a lovely name.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:52 Uh so Mang Xiao is um the spacecraft
00:21:52 --> 00:21:57 that will take astronauts from Earth
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 probably to lunar orbit, but then
00:22:00 --> 00:22:02 there'll be a separate landing vehicle.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 So they'll transfer to a lander which
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 will take them down to the surface.
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08 That's a bit like the architecture
00:22:08 --> 00:22:13 that's being planned for Arteimus 3. uh
00:22:13 --> 00:22:14 as far as I'm aware of or certainly ones
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 beyond that that you're you're talking
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 about having a a separate lander in
00:22:18 --> 00:22:21 orbit around the moon. So uh that's the
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23 test but there's another element of this
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25 that was tested in this new
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 demonstration and that is the Manga
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 spacecraft like most of the crude
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 capsules uh that we see going into orbit
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35 and certainly the Apollo capsule does
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 this as does the the SpaceX Dragon
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 capsule Crew Dragon uh that is the
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 launch abort system. In other words, the
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 way of getting the capsule off the top
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49 of the rocket if something goes wrong.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 Um, and they demonstrated that by uh
00:22:53 --> 00:22:57 getting the Mang Xiao capsule to um um
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 leave the uh long long march 10 rocket
00:23:01 --> 00:23:05 uh at a fairly early stage in the uh in
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 the flight and it was just about the
00:23:07 --> 00:23:09 time of what we call max Q where you've
00:23:09 --> 00:23:13 got maximum aerodynamic pressure on the
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 vehicle. the the the the abort motors
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 that fitted in the Mangja spacecraft
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 pulled it away from the booster um
00:23:21 --> 00:23:22 exactly as you would do if you were
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 trying to escape from u you know
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 something dangerous going on with your
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 booster rocket and it it all worked very
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 very successfully. Uh very interesting
00:23:33 --> 00:23:38 to read. I think the the China um man
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 space agency uh their program is well on
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 track. Uh they are have all along said
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 they want to have uh tyonauts on the
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 moon by 2030. Uh and it looks as though
00:23:50 --> 00:23:51 they're well on the way to doing that.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:54 Here we are in 2026. Yeah. Look, they're
00:23:54 --> 00:23:56 um they're doing some impressive things
00:23:56 --> 00:23:59 and they have become probably
00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 the major player next to the United
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 States in space exploration. Uh Russia
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 seems to have fallen a little behind,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 but they've got their attention focused
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 elsewhere at the moment. But um that's
00:24:11 --> 00:24:11 right.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 >> It it's it I I think it's good. Uh it's
00:24:14 --> 00:24:18 it's healthy competition. Uh and I I
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 think you know having a new race to the
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 moon situation is is very exciting and
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 uh I I can't wait to see how it all pans
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 out. Uh and I did look up the
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 translation for Mju or Ming Xiao and
00:24:32 --> 00:24:33 it's dream vessel.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:33 >> Yes.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:36 >> Or dream boat if you like. You could go
00:24:36 --> 00:24:40 either way, but um yeah. Um they've come
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 a long way since releasing the motor
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 vehicle known as the Cherry, which
00:24:44 --> 00:24:48 didn't do so great in Australia,
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 but um they're doing wonderful things
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 now. In fact, I I think uh it's a
00:24:53 --> 00:24:56 Chinese car company that owns um MG now
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 and is producing new models of the MG
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 motor car, which is readily available in
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 Australia. So um and they're selling a
00:25:04 --> 00:25:06 lot of them. They're they're quite a a
00:25:06 --> 00:25:08 popular vehicle uh in this country. I
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10 don't know how they're going elsewhere,
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12 but uh and of course they've got the
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 build your dreams uh electric vehicle uh
00:25:16 --> 00:25:17 that's making inroads around the world.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:19 And um I first saw them when we were in
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22 China a couple of years ago. Uh they're
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 doing amazing things technologically on
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 Earth and in space. Uh and and I I look
00:25:28 --> 00:25:29 forward to seeing how far they take it.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 They might get to Mars before anyone
00:25:31 --> 00:25:32 else. Fred,
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 >> maybe that's not impossible. No, not at
00:25:35 --> 00:25:35 all.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 >> Uh it's yeah, it's a program to be
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 admired. It's uh it's certainly going
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 well.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 >> Okay. Uh you can read all about that um
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 test run of the Mangu spacecraft and the
00:25:48 --> 00:25:53 reusable booster at arsenchnica.com.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:55 Let's take a break from the show to tell
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00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 >> Think we need to do a little more all
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 weather testing.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:37 >> Amen.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:41 >> Space nuts. Uh, one last story, Fred,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 and this one takes us uh into um some of
00:27:44 --> 00:27:46 the outer reaches of our solar system,
00:27:46 --> 00:27:48 or at least getting on your way there.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 Uh, Saturn's moon, Titan. Now, we've
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 talked about Titan multiple times over
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 the last several years, for one reason
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 or another. Um, now they have suggested
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 that Titan might have previously been
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 two moons or maybe more and there was
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 some kind of event that brought it all
00:28:09 --> 00:28:10 together.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:14 That's right. Uh, and so what's sort of
00:28:14 --> 00:28:22 prompted this is the idea that Titan's
00:28:22 --> 00:28:29 orbit has evolved. Uh and it's basically
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31 um the the the you know the
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 gravitational pull of Saturn that uh
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38 stabilizes the orbit. You'd expect an
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40 orbit eventually to become more or less
00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 circular but Titans isn't. Uh and so
00:28:44 --> 00:28:50 what people have looked at is uh okay um
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 what happens if we um sort of replay the
00:28:54 --> 00:28:57 thing backwards to look at what that
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 orbit might have looked like maybe 100
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 million years ago.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 >> Uh and it's
00:29:04 --> 00:29:07 that's 100 million years. It looks as
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 though something did happen. Um there is
00:29:10 --> 00:29:16 uh the idea of a collision uh between um
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 something that was large and something
00:29:19 --> 00:29:22 that was small. And the remnants of that
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 collision still exist today. One is
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 Titan. The other is Hyperion which is a
00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 very famous potato
00:29:30 --> 00:29:34 uh moon very odd shape uh which is also
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 in a in a elongated or eccentric orbit.
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40 Uh but so you what you do is you replay
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 their orbits back and you find that
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 there might have been some sort of
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 interaction about 100 million years ago.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 But of course that 100 million years uh
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 rings a bell with anybody interested in
00:29:52 --> 00:29:53 Saturn because that's how old we think
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 the rings are. Uh and so the suggestion
00:29:56 --> 00:29:58 is that there were two of these moons
00:29:58 --> 00:30:01 that collided a big one and a small one.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:04 Um and the debris um some of it would
00:30:04 --> 00:30:07 have enhanced the size of Titan, some of
00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 it would have enhanced the size probably
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 of Hyperion. Uh and some of it would
00:30:10 --> 00:30:13 have created the ring system. Uh and
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 that's the really rather neat and tidy
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19 story that is coming out of this piece
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 of research which um uh comes actually
00:30:23 --> 00:30:27 from uh the SETI institute the uh the um
00:30:27 --> 00:30:29 kind of stressful intelligence.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:32 >> Yep. there's a still a pretty active uh
00:30:32 --> 00:30:37 group of scientists at SETI.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:37 >> Um
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 >> yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good. It's good
00:30:39 --> 00:30:41 that they're sort of not just focused on
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 the one thing. They they're working on
00:30:43 --> 00:30:47 um on other um things that are happening
00:30:47 --> 00:30:49 in in space science. Uh Titan's an
00:30:49 --> 00:30:51 interesting world. I think it's the
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54 second largest moon in solar system or
00:30:54 --> 00:30:54 second.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 >> It is. That's correct.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:58 >> And and it it's got an atmosphere.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00 though whatever happened to it certainly
00:31:00 --> 00:31:05 created an interesting situation.
00:31:05 --> 00:31:07 >> Uh that's right. Um sorry I was I've
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 I've lost you on my screens. I've just
00:31:09 --> 00:31:10 found you again. That's why it's
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 preoccupied. Um not only is it the
00:31:13 --> 00:31:15 second biggest uh moon in the solar
00:31:15 --> 00:31:16 system. It's actually bigger than
00:31:16 --> 00:31:19 Mercury. Uh and it's a very large object
00:31:19 --> 00:31:22 and of great interest with um you know
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 the Dragonfly uh mission being planned
00:31:25 --> 00:31:27 to fly through the atmosphere, an
00:31:27 --> 00:31:28 octacopter that will fly through the
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 atmosphere of Titan and send us back
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 hopefully pictures of the ethane and
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 methane lakes on Titan's icy surface.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 The surface of Titan is just solid ice.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 So yeah, an interesting insight into the
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 history of Titan and also um just sort
00:31:43 --> 00:31:45 of adds to the intrigue when we go and
00:31:45 --> 00:31:47 when we finally do go and have a close
00:31:47 --> 00:31:48 look at Titan.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:50 >> Yes, indeed. Yeah. A fascinating world
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 and another one that would not really be
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55 good for humans to wander around, right?
00:31:55 --> 00:31:55 >> That's right.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:56 >> Yeah.
00:31:57 --> 00:31:58 >> We're surrounded by all of that, aren't
00:31:58 --> 00:31:59 we?
00:31:59 --> 00:32:02 >> Yeah. Which is um not really a
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 coincidence, is it? Cuz the only place
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 we can live is the one where we evolved
00:32:06 --> 00:32:10 on. So indeed. M uh but uh it's a great
00:32:10 --> 00:32:12 story. Uh who'd have thunk it? Two moons
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 that created one and that is what we
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17 call Titan. Uh if you'd like to read up
00:32:17 --> 00:32:21 on that, it's on uh the fizz.org
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 website, phys, or you can read the paper
00:32:24 --> 00:32:28 in the planetary science journal. And we
00:32:28 --> 00:32:31 are done. Fred, thank you very much.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 >> That's uh isn't that episode 601 that we
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36 finished? Yeah.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37 >> Yes, indeed. Wow.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 >> But time flies when you're having fun.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 >> Certainly does. Uh thank you, Andrew.
00:32:43 --> 00:32:44 It's always great to chat.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 >> We'll catch you soon on the next
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 episode, which will be a Q&A episode uh
00:32:48 --> 00:32:51 coming up soon. And um don't forget to
00:32:51 --> 00:32:53 visit us online in the meantime. You can
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55 do that at spacenutspodcast.com or
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 spacenuts.io. You can visit our social
00:32:57 --> 00:33:00 media pages, the official Space Nuts
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 Facebook page or the Instagram uh site
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 or you can go to the uh the the user
00:33:06 --> 00:33:08 generated Facebook page which is the
00:33:08 --> 00:33:11 Space Nuts podcast group which is
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 growing in number. Let me have a look.
00:33:13 --> 00:33:17 2 plus members in uh in that uh
00:33:17 --> 00:33:18 Facebook group at the moment and uh they
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 all chat to each other and tell terrible
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 jokes. So uh check it out and thanks to
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 Hugh in the studio. Hugh um couldn't be
00:33:26 --> 00:33:29 with us today because he was um out last
00:33:29 --> 00:33:31 Saturday night and something about two
00:33:31 --> 00:33:35 moons. Anyway, got arrested. And from
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for your
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 company. Catch catch you on the next
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:43 >> Space Nuts.
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