In this Q&A episode of Space Nuts, host Andrew Dunkley and astronomer Fred Watson tackle intriguing questions from listeners about bright nebulae, the nature of light, and the mysteries of time. They discuss whether one could see the vibrant colors of nebulae from within, delve into the implications of two arrows of time emerging from quantum systems, and explore the feasibility of life on moons orbiting brown dwarf stars. Join us for a fascinating journey through the cosmos as we unravel these cosmic queries!
Chapters:
(00:00) This is a Q and A edition of Space Nuts
(01:34) Dan from the Gold Coast asks about color effects of telescopes in nebula
(06:28) Stan Vanning: Which nebula is the brightest and most colorful
(09:38) New study suggests opposing arrows of time can theoretically emerge from certain quantum systems
(15:59) Andrew Dunkley with Professor Fred Watson discuss the arrows of time
(16:30) Andrew and Fred answer a question from Rusty in Donnybrook
(16:51) If moon was orbiting the sun without the Earth, they'd be stable
(18:57) Is the sun moon Lagrange point a good place for a habitat
(23:32) Martin Berman Gorvine has a question about brown dwarf stars
(26:49) Could Earth sized moon orbiting brown dwarf star sustain life as we know it
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/26119527?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 hi there thanks for joining us yet again
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 on another episode of Space Nuts this is
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 a Q&A Edition my name is Andrew Dunley
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 your host uh good to have your company
00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 what we're going to tackle today is
00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 questions about bright nebula and that's
00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 a question that comes from Dan and it's
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 probably not where you're thinking in
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 terms of uh what he might be asking you
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 probably don't know what the heck he's
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 asking at all but we'll tell you uh also
00:00:27 --> 00:00:29 uh this one came through Instagram uh
00:00:29 --> 00:00:32 Renee has sent us an article about light
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 traveling in two directions what's that
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 about uh Rusty has a three-body problem
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 and Martin wants to talk about brown
00:00:41 --> 00:00:42 dwarf stars and he also wants to tell us
00:00:42 --> 00:00:44 a poem it's always dangerous but we're
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 going to do it here on spice nuts 15
00:00:48 --> 00:00:52 seconds guidance is internal 10 9
00:00:52 --> 00:00:57 ignition sequence start Space Nuts 5 4 3
00:00:57 --> 00:01:01 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 Space Nuts
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 astronauts reported feels
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 good he's back again for more his name
00:01:06 --> 00:01:08 is Professor Fred what's an astronomer
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 at large hello
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 Fred hello
00:01:11 --> 00:01:15 Andrew glad to be here good to have you
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 here yeah is it funny how we always seem
00:01:17 --> 00:01:19 to wear the same shirts two episodes
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 running I don't know how that works yeah
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 no idea very strange
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 phenomenon um now uh we might as well
00:01:27 --> 00:01:30 get straight into it and tackle our
00:01:30 --> 00:01:35 first question which comes from Dan hi
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 gentlemen this is Dan from the Gold
00:01:37 --> 00:01:41 Coast I just wanted to know uh with some
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 of the bright kind of more colorful
00:01:44 --> 00:01:47 nebula uh like the Kina Helix outside
00:01:47 --> 00:01:50 that kind of stuff
00:01:50 --> 00:01:53 uh would being inside there could you
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 would you be able to actually see all
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 those colors or like you know is it kind
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 of like once you're in a you know when
00:01:59 --> 00:02:02 you're up high in the Bog in that it's a
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 little less noticeable is that what it's
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 like in there or do we not really know
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 what it would be like um thanks for
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 taking my question love the show and
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 thanks for keeping me company on my
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 deliveries for work cheers guys nice one
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 thank you Dan glad we can keep you
00:02:20 --> 00:02:24 company um bright nebul the the when
00:02:24 --> 00:02:25 they're photographed they look
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 extraordinary some of the colors are
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 amazing um but when you photograph Earth
00:02:31 --> 00:02:32 it's the same thing but when you're down
00:02:32 --> 00:02:35 here you
00:02:35 --> 00:02:40 go is it the same go into a nebula or a
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 nebula um I think you would see the
00:02:42 --> 00:02:46 colors actually so you've got to imagine
00:02:46 --> 00:02:47 first of all you're not just sitting in
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 the middle of a nebula you're probably
00:02:49 --> 00:02:53 in orbit around a a star on a on a you
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 know imaginers on a planet that surround
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 a star in one of those nebula now the
00:02:58 --> 00:03:04 issue uh is this may not happen because
00:03:04 --> 00:03:07 the we know that those nebula are
00:03:07 --> 00:03:09 associated with Star forming
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 regions so so they're young stars that
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 that are in them um and some of those
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 young Stars might be too young to have
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 mature planets with um intelligent life
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 on it but if there was intelligent life
00:03:21 --> 00:03:24 on the you know the star of a of the
00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 Planet of the star in a glowing nebula I
00:03:27 --> 00:03:28 think you'd see the color I think you
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 would see a background and it would
00:03:31 --> 00:03:33 probably predominantly be pink because
00:03:33 --> 00:03:35 that's the color of excited hydrogen um
00:03:35 --> 00:03:37 what's exciting it is the ultraviolet
00:03:37 --> 00:03:41 light being given off by a nearby star
00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 uh that ultraviolet light will be lethal
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 for us anyway
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 so I knew there'd be a of some kind yeah
00:03:49 --> 00:03:50 you might you might not see see it for
00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 very long but yes I think I think if
00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 your eye was in there you would see the
00:03:55 --> 00:03:58 colors that's interesting because maybe
00:03:58 --> 00:04:00 more subtly than what we see in some of
00:04:00 --> 00:04:03 the photographs but yeah a lot of those
00:04:03 --> 00:04:07 photographs have to be enhanced and um
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 uh you know to bring out the the detail
00:04:10 --> 00:04:14 I suppose uh and those photographs have
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 improved over time with with technology
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 because some of the early photographs of
00:04:19 --> 00:04:22 U like the Horsehead nebula uh were a
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 bit fuzzy but uh if you look at the the
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 latest crop of them they are certainly
00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 high definition yeah that that's right
00:04:29 --> 00:04:30 that's largely a result of bigger
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 telescopes I mean it was um my colleague
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 and friend David mein uh who's lives not
00:04:36 --> 00:04:41 very far from here uh that um Bay View
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 uh he uh was the person who first put
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 colors into images of the stars using
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 predominantly uh photographs they were
00:04:49 --> 00:04:50 photographs from the Ang Australian
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 telescope and the UK Schmid telescope
00:04:53 --> 00:04:54 that's when I came to Australia to work
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 on uh so uh he and I was going to say
00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 when you talked about color enhancement
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 things like that he took extraordinary
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 pains to make sure that the colors he
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 were presenting he was presenting were
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 what your on Ed I would see if you had a
00:05:11 --> 00:05:15 much bigger telescope um he in fact he
00:05:15 --> 00:05:17 was obsessive about it uh the color
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 balance uh in to to the extent that he
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 would get really upset if he went to
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 give a talk about these things and the
00:05:25 --> 00:05:26 uh the video projector that was being
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 used was not up to scratch
00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 um he'd be tinkering with the
00:05:31 --> 00:05:34 adjustments trying to fix it before the
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 talk um and uh so so his images were a
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 representation now you're quite right
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 that you know when those images came out
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 in the 1970s and 80s they were
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 mind-blowing nobody had ever seen
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 anything like them but we now have uh
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 images from much bigger telescopes um
00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 well we've got images from space
00:05:55 --> 00:05:57 telescopes which by definition don't
00:05:57 --> 00:06:01 have the uh the the you know the
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 blurring effect of the atmosphere in
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 front of them they're they're seeing
00:06:05 --> 00:06:09 perfect perfect images uh unfettered by
00:06:09 --> 00:06:12 the atmosphere um and also from the
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 ground we're seeing from much bigger
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 telescopes now twice as big and that
00:06:16 --> 00:06:18 that also affects the definition so yes
00:06:18 --> 00:06:20 the the current crop of images which
00:06:20 --> 00:06:22 we're getting from the web telescope the
00:06:22 --> 00:06:23 very large telescope the gmany
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 telescopes all of those uh they're they
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 are stunning you're absolutely right
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 okay question with that notice which
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 nebula is the brightest and most
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 colorful
00:06:35 --> 00:06:39 uh um well the I think there are two
00:06:39 --> 00:06:41 very bright ones the the the probably
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 the one that everybody on Earth can see
00:06:43 --> 00:06:44 because it's right on the celestial
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 equator is the irion
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 nebula uh and that's visible clearly
00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 with the naked eye uh big gas cloud in
00:06:52 --> 00:06:53 the constellation of Orion right just
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 below it's actually the um the handle of
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 a ran sword that's where it is or the or
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 the handle of the saucepan depending on
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 which way up you're looking at it yeah
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 uh and um the other the Lagoon nebula
00:07:07 --> 00:07:08 very bright as well that's one of the
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10 Southern Hemisphere nebulas in the
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 southern Milky Way okay really good um
00:07:14 --> 00:07:15 Dan if you would like to look at some of
00:07:15 --> 00:07:19 David Ma's uh amazing photography um
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 just do a a web search for his name
00:07:21 --> 00:07:25 because pop up and yeah he he was a real
00:07:25 --> 00:07:28 Pioneer absolutely yeah very much so and
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 he was well
00:07:30 --> 00:07:34 highly regarded um he he uh won many
00:07:34 --> 00:07:36 awards including the sort of Nobel Prize
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 of Imaging which is the Nell leonnard
00:07:39 --> 00:07:44 Nelson award uh he um yes he he became
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 very famous because of his images being
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 so uh you know so widely distributed
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 they were sought after for record album
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 covers and oh magazine covers and books
00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 uh and many very eminent astronomers
00:07:58 --> 00:08:03 today and just two to name uh in fact
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 probably n three Dan Joseline
00:08:06 --> 00:08:11 bbell uh Brian Cox Brian Schmidt uh
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 credit David's uh David's photography
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 for some of their interest actually
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 Joselyn was already well into astronomy
00:08:19 --> 00:08:20 but she's always had high praise for
00:08:20 --> 00:08:23 David's photography yeah I'm sure David
00:08:23 --> 00:08:25 would not be a fan of the cameras on an
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 iPhone because I I read an article today
00:08:28 --> 00:08:29 just to learn a bit more about how to
00:08:29 --> 00:08:32 use the camera on my phone and um I
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 found out that uh because of the
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 artificial intelligence that's gr into
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 them they they do tend to
00:08:39 --> 00:08:44 not um produce what is really seen I
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 mean to an unated eye it looks like the
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 photo that you took but the the way the
00:08:49 --> 00:08:51 artificial intelligence works it takes a
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 very educated guess as to what you're
00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 photographing and fills in the blanks
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 and I thought that is weird what I mean
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 that's not how camera should work but
00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 what's interesting about it is that they
00:09:03 --> 00:09:07 they question whether or not some of uh
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 the photos taken by iPhones would
00:09:09 --> 00:09:11 actually be legitimate evidence in court
00:09:11 --> 00:09:12 yeah yeah even though the image is
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 obviously what you took a photo of yes
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 it's not an image of the it's not the
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 photo it's not the it's not a a genuine
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 representation of what the thing look
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 like yes yeah it's quite incredible
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28 thanks Dan uh good question and um you
00:09:28 --> 00:09:30 know keep on track of or vanning or
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 whatever it is you
00:09:33 --> 00:09:39 do 3 2 1 Space Nuts uh now our next
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 question sort of came about by accident
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 I was just sort of Milling around on the
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 interwebs over the weekend and I saw a
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 little one and you know the little ones
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 that are on your your smart devices I
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 thought oh gosh someone sent us a
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 message through the spaceup Instagram
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 page which I I very rarely look at and
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 it was Renee hi Renee and she said I
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 found this article um maybe you guys
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 could have a talk about it that was the
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 question uh the article was about how
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 physicists have uncovered evidence of
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 two arrows of time emerging from the
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 quantum realm now this is getting into
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 tricky science Fred but light is always
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 an intriguing subject so I thought we
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 might have a talk about this
00:10:26 --> 00:10:30 one yeah it's uh I mean it's time we're
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 talking about not light it's actually
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 time flowing oh sorry I said light time
00:10:35 --> 00:10:41 right yeah and um and so you know we the
00:10:41 --> 00:10:42 conventional view is that there's an
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 arrow of time yeah that um that just
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 goes one way uh and it's linked with the
00:10:49 --> 00:10:51 second law of Thermodynamics which is
00:10:51 --> 00:10:52 all about entropy which is the
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 randomness or disorder that you find in
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 a system and all of that stuff gets
00:10:57 --> 00:10:59 mixed up but um we've I mean
00:10:59 --> 00:11:01 conventional physics has believed that
00:11:01 --> 00:11:04 the arrow of time only goes one way uh
00:11:04 --> 00:11:07 but this new paper um it's
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 suggesting that in Quantum in the
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 quantum world uh there might be another
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 one that you can
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19 basically you know follow time going in
00:11:19 --> 00:11:21 a different direction it's going the
00:11:21 --> 00:11:25 other way in other words uh going from
00:11:25 --> 00:11:29 uh future to past work that one out yeah
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 struggling to understand the concept I I
00:11:32 --> 00:11:34 know there's been a lot of Science
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 Fiction about time travel and I know
00:11:36 --> 00:11:37 there's been
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 experimentation
00:11:39 --> 00:11:43 um yeah yeah like as you said in the
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 past traveling through time would
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 require more energy than there is in the
00:11:47 --> 00:11:49 universe yeah that's right that's the
00:11:49 --> 00:11:52 time War that's right that's the warping
00:11:52 --> 00:11:56 but but experiments into time um into
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 time have shown that um movement does
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 disrupt the time space time continum oh
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 that's right time time's flexible we
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 know that because of Relativity tells us
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 that either by things traveling very
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 fast or putting it in a gravitational
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 field that bends time but this is
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 something different the the arrows of
00:12:15 --> 00:12:17 time um I've got the um university of
00:12:17 --> 00:12:20 Sur uh which is where this work has been
00:12:20 --> 00:12:21 done I've got their press release in
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 front of me uh and I'm just going to
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 read from that because it's a very
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 succinct way of expressing it a new
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30 study reveals that a opposing arrows of
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 time can theoretically emerge from
00:12:33 --> 00:12:34 certain Quantum
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 systems uh and there's a quote from Dr
00:12:37 --> 00:12:41 Andrea roko who's an associate professor
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 in physics and mathematical biology at
00:12:44 --> 00:12:48 the University of Sur Siri and it says
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 uh the quote is one way to explain this
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 is when you look at a process like spilt
00:12:54 --> 00:12:56 milk spreading across a table it's clear
00:12:56 --> 00:12:59 that time is moving forward but if you
00:12:59 --> 00:13:00 you want to play that in Reverse like a
00:13:00 --> 00:13:02 movie you'd immediately know something
00:13:02 --> 00:13:03 was wrong it would be hard to believe
00:13:03 --> 00:13:06 milk could just gather back into a glass
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 however there are processes such as the
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 motion of a pendulum that look just as
00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 believable in reverse the P the puzzle
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 is that at the most fundamental level
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 the laws of physics resemble the
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 pendulum they do not account for
00:13:20 --> 00:13:23 irreversible processes our findings
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 suggest that while our common experience
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 tells us that time only moves one way we
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 are just unaware that the opposite
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 direction would have been equally
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 possible gosh I mean that's just hard to
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 wrap your head around really it gets
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42 harder when you look at actually what
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 they've done uh and it is all in the
00:13:44 --> 00:13:45 subatomic world you you're talking about
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 Quantum systems and the way they
00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 interact with their environment it's
00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 very interesting stuff but it is quite
00:13:52 --> 00:13:56 um you know it's quite dense um I mean
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 the I know I am so that there another
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 sentence if I may from the uh University
00:14:02 --> 00:14:06 of Sur press release uh
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 the yeah the system behaved in this is
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 the the something that're working on a
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 theoretical you know in a theortical
00:14:16 --> 00:14:20 Quantum environment the system uh
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 behaved the same way whether time moved
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 forwards or backwards and that's saying
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 you know it's like a pendulum which can
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 you don't it's a difference either way
00:14:31 --> 00:14:34 um time moving either way uh the
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36 discovery provided a mathematical
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 foundation for the idea that time
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 reversed symmetry still holds in open
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 Quantum systems suggesting that times
00:14:45 --> 00:14:51 Arrow may not be as fixed as we
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 experience wow uh of course there's a
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 lot of work going on in the quantum
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 Realm
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 because they're trying to crack the
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 secrets of developing Quantum
00:15:03 --> 00:15:05 Computing and if they do that it's just
00:15:05 --> 00:15:06 going to
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 change it's just going to change
00:15:09 --> 00:15:13 everything that's right the day May Come
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 the day may come where we have
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 um uh quantum computers in the home I
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 don't think it'll be soon but you know
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 computers in households are are so
00:15:24 --> 00:15:28 common now whereas when I was a kid um
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 yeah
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 the the the CIO calculator was a new
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 thing and when you were a kid the Abacus
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 would have been yeah the best thing I
00:15:36 --> 00:15:40 had was my slide R slide R yeah yeah
00:15:40 --> 00:15:42 I've got a soft spot for slide rules
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 actually I just found one in a antique
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 shop just a few days ago which is a
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 lovely little N 9 in slide Ro look at
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 that in its own box it's been the
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 treasured possession of some engineer
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 probably yeah it's a very nice little
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 purchase AR you wow yeah know what we
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 going to pick up in those little um no
00:16:02 --> 00:16:03 that's right you
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 don't um not much more we can say about
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 this one but um thank you Renee for um
00:16:09 --> 00:16:10 sort of bringing it to our attention if
00:16:10 --> 00:16:14 you'd like to read up on the arrows of
00:16:14 --> 00:16:18 time not light time uh s.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:22 ac.uk is the site this is Space Nuts
00:16:22 --> 00:16:27 Andrew Dunley here with Professor Fred
00:16:27 --> 00:16:31 Watson and I F Space Nuts okay Fred
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 let's move on to our next question with
00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 one of our uh regular collaborators uh
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 and that is
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41 Rusty good day Fred and Andrew Andrew
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 and Fred it's Rusty and Donnybrook been
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 a while at this time of the year who
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 knows where you two are or I'm sitting
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 at home I hope this finds you and I hope
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 it finds you well been looking at the
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 three body problem of the Earth Moon and
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 Sun in terms of the Grange points in the
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 Sun Moon
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 system the L1 and L2 points in that Sun
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 Moon system lie about 29 kilometers
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 uh from the center of the moon or about
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 27 kilomet from the Moon
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 surface
00:17:16 --> 00:17:19 the if the moon was uh orbiting the Sun
00:17:19 --> 00:17:21 without the Earth that'd be pretty
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 stable but the moon goes around the
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 earth at about with an orbital speed of
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 about 1 kilometer a second and the two
00:17:29 --> 00:17:31 of them travel around the Sun at about
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 30 km/
00:17:33 --> 00:17:38 second so the uh impact on L2 for
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 example uh in the Sun Moon system would
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 be fairly
00:17:45 --> 00:17:49 slight uh and the impact of the Earth
00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 Moon L1 and L2 positions which are about
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 4 km further out from the
00:17:55 --> 00:17:59 Moon uh would be probably the biggest
00:18:00 --> 00:18:01 effect there they would have the
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 distorting effect the question is the
00:18:04 --> 00:18:08 Sun Moon L2 Point perpetually shaded by
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 the body of the Moon would that not be a
00:18:11 --> 00:18:15 great place to uh to have a
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 habitat uh it would shelter it' be
00:18:18 --> 00:18:23 healing there from solar weather and to
00:18:23 --> 00:18:27 um to build it lighter say 50% lighter
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 probably uh wouldn't that be a great
00:18:29 --> 00:18:34 place to have a habitat anyway um yeah
00:18:34 --> 00:18:35 I'd love to hear your comments on that
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 one and um I've really been enjoying the
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 show I haven't had a chance to say
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 anything cheers thanks Rusty nice to
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 hear from you um yes we we're in the
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 country together at the same time for
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 for a change but it's only for a short
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 only for a short while uh I think I'm
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 the next to make a a
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 sojourn overseas um Rusty three body
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 problem uh talks about the Earth Moon
00:19:02 --> 00:19:06 and Sun lrange points uh bottom line is
00:19:06 --> 00:19:09 is the Sun Moon lrange point a good
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 place for a habitat uh and the answer is
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 no oh gee I thought it would go the
00:19:15 --> 00:19:17 other way no and it's and and rust's
00:19:17 --> 00:19:19 already put his finger on it there those
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21 they don't really exist those agran
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 points because they're completely
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 unstable um the the the fact you know
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28 that you've got the Earth right next
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29 door
00:19:29 --> 00:19:31 uh if the if it was just the Sun and the
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 Moon yes that would all be great all all
00:19:34 --> 00:19:36 would work but you've got this massive
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 object the Earth 80 times the mass of
00:19:39 --> 00:19:40 the Moon
00:19:41 --> 00:19:45 350 well 380 kilometers away um
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 and it basically just disrupts the the
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 the Sun Moon uh the grch points so um
00:19:51 --> 00:19:54 it's it's got really no stability worth
00:19:54 --> 00:19:57 speaking of um and so it wouldn't be a
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59 good place to try and put a spacecraft
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 so you do in fact have with the with the
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 Sun the Earth and the moon a three body
00:20:04 --> 00:20:09 problem uh you do yes that's right um it
00:20:09 --> 00:20:12 is it's a three body problem and the two
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 the two absolutely significant bodies in
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17 that are the Earth and the Sun uh the
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 moon you know it it almost doesn't
00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 register it's possible to Define to
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 calculate where those LR points would be
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 but they're so unstable that there's no
00:20:28 --> 00:20:29 um there's there's no point in trying to
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 put something there you you'd constantly
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 uh be having to move around to stay in
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 the right place I
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 imagine uh you that's right you you you
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 burn all your fuel up um yeah unless
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 you've got a win a Bago I
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 mean yeah yeah that would that would
00:20:50 --> 00:20:51 work they've made their way into space
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53 although there are uh lrange points that
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55 we've found very
00:20:55 --> 00:20:57 advantageous um and and we've got a
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 couple of observatories
00:20:59 --> 00:21:01 yeah get around those points that's
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 right that's the um the the sun earth LR
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 points where you're right there there's
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 observatories at both L1 and L2 l1's
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13 between the Sun and the Earth uh L2 is
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 on the opposite side of the earth from
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17 the sun a million and a half kilometers
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 away and that's where the web telescope
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21 is for example in the Gia spacecraft but
00:21:21 --> 00:21:23 again you're not staying still they
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 still have to maneuver to that's right
00:21:26 --> 00:21:28 and it's like a spiral movement from
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 what I can tell yeah it's um they're
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 kind of in orbit around the um around
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 the stable point but it's not that
00:21:35 --> 00:21:38 stable uh you know if you if you get
00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 tipped off one way you you could run
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 away uh so you do need to keep burning
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 fuel to keep it uh in the right place
00:21:45 --> 00:21:46 it's called station keeping and I think
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 that's the everyday uh you know the
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 everyday job of some of these um
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 spacecraft drivers if I can call them
00:21:54 --> 00:21:59 that yeah okay uh so ultimately with a
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 an object like James web the fuel's
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 going to run out yes that's right and
00:22:04 --> 00:22:05 that's actually what will limit the life
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 of the web telescope uh the fuel that
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 will keep it in the right place um uh I
00:22:11 --> 00:22:12 think they've got more than they
00:22:12 --> 00:22:14 expected to have when they launched it
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 they thought they had a 10y year life
00:22:16 --> 00:22:17 but I think they're now talking about
00:22:17 --> 00:22:19 more like 20 years so that's really good
00:22:19 --> 00:22:23 wonderful well that in 20 in the 20-year
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25 LIF span of James Webb the technolog is
00:22:25 --> 00:22:28 probably going to jump even more yes
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30 that's there'll be telescopes that will
00:22:30 --> 00:22:31 be far more Superior which is what
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 happened to Hubble basically y although
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 it's still doing a fantastic job it is
00:22:36 --> 00:22:44 yeah so Rusty's answer is no o no go um
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 unfortunately uh although I'm sure the
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 day will come where they'll they'll put
00:22:48 --> 00:22:51 a habitat out there somewhere and and or
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 a space station of some kind and um I
00:22:54 --> 00:22:55 think Earth orbit would be the logical
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 way to go at this point wouldn't
00:22:57 --> 00:22:59 wouldn't you say
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 uh yes sorry do you mean around the Moon
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 uh moon orbit yeah moon orbit yeah
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 that's right well the the that part of
00:23:07 --> 00:23:07 the
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 timus uh deal is to have the Gateway
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 spacecraft which is exactly that it's a
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 mini space station around in orbit
00:23:14 --> 00:23:15 around the Moon I don't know whether
00:23:15 --> 00:23:16 it's ever going to happen but that's
00:23:16 --> 00:23:18 certainly in the planet yeah you never
00:23:18 --> 00:23:22 know all right thanks Rusty uh as always
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24 um deep thought type questions coming
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 from you speaking of deep thought our
00:23:27 --> 00:23:31 next and final question comes from
00:23:31 --> 00:23:36 Martin hello space nuts Martin Burman
00:23:36 --> 00:23:39 gorvine here writer
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 extraordinaire in many
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 genres recording this in pomac Maryland
00:23:47 --> 00:23:53 USA although by the time you broadcast
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 it I may well have joined you down under
00:23:58 --> 00:24:02 because because I do not wish to live
00:24:02 --> 00:24:08 under the possible reign of the orange
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 Nero so I have a question about the
00:24:11 --> 00:24:18 brown dwarf stars that you you blos were
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 discussing see how I said
00:24:21 --> 00:24:24 bles
00:24:24 --> 00:24:29 uh could there be inor
00:24:29 --> 00:24:35 an earth sized Moon of such a brown
00:24:35 --> 00:24:41 dwarf star circling in orbiting it in a
00:24:41 --> 00:24:46 possible goldilock Zone and would it
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 then be possible for this world to
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 support earthlike
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 Life as we know
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 it if the answer be yes what would the
00:24:57 --> 00:25:04 brown dwarf star look like in its
00:25:04 --> 00:25:10 sky and I have written a poem about this
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 possibility inspired by Dr Fred
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 Watson
00:25:16 --> 00:25:20 and Mr Robbie
00:25:20 --> 00:25:25 Burns all that I know of a brown dwarf
00:25:25 --> 00:25:30 star is it can glow but not very far now
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 a dart of bronze now a dart of tan
00:25:34 --> 00:25:39 behold its long fronze the color of bran
00:25:39 --> 00:25:43 my star the dles the bronze and the
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47 tan no it's not like a turd it has fun
00:25:47 --> 00:25:51 and World busy fusing away like the
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 stars all above it what if circling it
00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 is a Goldilocks world what a strange
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 lovely thought I really do love it and
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 you can send uh thank you thank you you
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 can send the royalties for that to me
00:26:09 --> 00:26:13 either in pic if the orange Nero has not
00:26:13 --> 00:26:17 returned or maybe in Duo if he
00:26:17 --> 00:26:23 has Burman gorvine over and out out oh
00:26:23 --> 00:26:25 that is prosess absolutely prosess
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 Mountain thank you I know it's taking me
00:26:27 --> 00:26:28 a little while to get to that one
00:26:28 --> 00:26:32 because um apparently the Orange nuro is
00:26:32 --> 00:26:35 um Alive and Kicking so you might look
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 out for Martin on the streets of Duo yes
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 yes I'll keep an eye out for him and
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 you're more than welcome Martin anytime
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 anytime um I love that PO that was
00:26:46 --> 00:26:50 brilliant um very very good so um
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 earth-sized
00:26:52 --> 00:26:57 Moon uh orbiting a brown dwarf star in
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 the Goldilocks Zone could it sustain
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 Life as We Know
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 It uh well it wouldn't be as we know it
00:27:06 --> 00:27:10 because the um the peak energy output of
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 a brown dwarf star is well into the
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 infrared aha uh they've got a low
00:27:15 --> 00:27:16 surface
00:27:16 --> 00:27:20 temperature um I'm just trying to think
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 whether they even have a goldilock Zone
00:27:23 --> 00:27:24 uh I guess they must do but it might be
00:27:25 --> 00:27:26 very close to the surface of the brown
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 dwarf because they they they glow just
00:27:28 --> 00:27:32 by um you know by their
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 internal um lowlevel nuclear reactions
00:27:36 --> 00:27:40 so just let's think about so if if
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 um I
00:27:43 --> 00:27:47 imag the you know thinking about U Warm
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 Bodies like us we
00:27:50 --> 00:27:54 radiate uh at 10 microns in the infrared
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 that's the wavelength that we emit in
00:27:56 --> 00:27:58 the infrared because of our natural Heat
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 heat um and I don't think Brown dwars
00:28:01 --> 00:28:02 are that far away they're probably a bit
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 warmer than that they're probably more
00:28:04 --> 00:28:07 you know rather warmer than um whatever
00:28:07 --> 00:28:11 it is 30 37 degrees Celsius that we we
00:28:11 --> 00:28:15 have to be um so
00:28:15 --> 00:28:19 uh would there be a gold loxone I I need
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 to check on that
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 whether okay good yeah apparently you
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 can calculate it so it does have a gold
00:28:28 --> 00:28:30 Zone although it does there's one
00:28:30 --> 00:28:33 article I'm reading that says that um
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35 the first 10 million years of a brown
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 dwarf might have a temperature close to
00:28:37 --> 00:28:41 3 Kelvin a reasonable habitable zone
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 to go with it would have yes yeah um but
00:28:45 --> 00:28:48 look I haven't got anything in terms of
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 yeah that's a young brown dwarf so old
00:28:50 --> 00:28:55 brown dwarfs probably forget it yeah
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 habitable zone is on the surface they do
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 have weather the brown draw Stars yeah
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03 yeah one of my colleagues um Christini
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 become before he became an expert on
00:29:05 --> 00:29:07 extra Sol planets used to study Brown
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 dwarfs and uh I think one of his papers
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 was about the weather on Brown
00:29:12 --> 00:29:16 dwarfs okay um you there's a graph there
00:29:16 --> 00:29:17 that gives me an indicator of a
00:29:17 --> 00:29:20 habitable zone around a brown dwarf but
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 I don't understand it it's got all these
00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 10 to the 5ifth 10 to the 6th numbers
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 yeah right I better have a look at that
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 yeah yeah yeah but uh I suppose the
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 answer is yes there's a habitable zone
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 under certain circumstances in the early
00:29:35 --> 00:29:37 life of a brown dwarf but um yeah how do
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 you predict what kind of life could be
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 sustained yeah certainly you know we're
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 we're very tuned to the wave the
00:29:45 --> 00:29:49 wavelengths emitted by the sun uh where
00:29:49 --> 00:29:52 sort of all our vision is predicated
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 around um visible light pecking the
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 green region of the spectrum I guess
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 creature could evolve with infrared
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 sensitive eyes um that's not out of the
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 question it's not
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 impossible have what do
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 rattlesnakes yeah this yes there you go
00:30:11 --> 00:30:16 um and so um uh but it would it be Life
00:30:16 --> 00:30:17 as we know it well it might be
00:30:17 --> 00:30:19 rattlesnakes yeah yeah it could be could
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 be yeah it's hard to know but as we
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 we've talked about it in the past about
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26 uh how different
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 stars um would create different kinds of
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 habitat like the vegetation would be
00:30:32 --> 00:30:35 very different if if let's say you had a
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 planet around a um I don't know a very
00:30:38 --> 00:30:42 big bright blue star um everything
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 would' be different as Life as we know
00:30:45 --> 00:30:47 it would not look like that if you went
00:30:47 --> 00:30:49 into a forest on a planet around a star
00:30:49 --> 00:30:50 like that it would be a completely
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 different kettle of
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 leaves would yeah no leaves all the
00:30:56 --> 00:30:58 colors would be different all the all
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00 the yeah
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 variations uh would be different um and
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 because life would have to adapt to a
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 completely different light pattern and
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 heat pattern than everything else
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 radiation Etc so um yeah it's a bit of
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16 an unknown Martin as to what kind of
00:31:16 --> 00:31:20 life would exist on a a moon-sized
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 planet orbiting a brown dwarf star but
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 if it was possible it would not be Life
00:31:25 --> 00:31:28 as we know it I think that was the basis
00:31:28 --> 00:31:29 of your question so I think we can give
00:31:29 --> 00:31:33 you a um a no on that one but not a no
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 on life of some other
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39 kind not as we know
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 it James T Kirk would uh probably say
00:31:43 --> 00:31:44 that too it's life Jim but not as we
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 know it no that wasn't Jim that was Dr
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 Dr
00:31:49 --> 00:31:54 thing no um oh oh bones Bon
00:31:54 --> 00:31:57 bones not as we know it thanks Martin
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 love the Palm you ought to publish that
00:31:59 --> 00:32:00 that was
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02 hilarious uh and we are done don't
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 forget to send your questions into us
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 via our website because we love to get
00:32:06 --> 00:32:08 them and we're always looking for more
00:32:08 --> 00:32:10 and you can do that at SPAC
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 nuts. and just click on that little AMA
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 thing at the top uh which is where you
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18 send your questions in audio or text
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20 format and don't forget to tell us who
00:32:20 --> 00:32:22 you are and where you're from and have a
00:32:22 --> 00:32:23 look around while you're there visit the
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26 Space Nuts shop it's always fun uh
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 plenty of things to to grab hold of if
00:32:29 --> 00:32:31 somebody special is having a birthday
00:32:31 --> 00:32:32 soon you might want to pick up a little
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 doad for them who knows and thanks as
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38 always Fred it's been a great pleasure
00:32:38 --> 00:32:40 good to talk Andrew and um look forward
00:32:40 --> 00:32:43 to doing it again very good uh we'll see
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 you soon Professor Fred Watson
00:32:45 --> 00:32:46 astronomer at large and thanks to Hugh
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 in the studio because um he's always
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 helpful except today when he he couldn't
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 be with us because he was out
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 babysitting his brown dwarf and from me
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 Andrew Dunley thanks for your company
00:32:57 --> 00:32:58 we'll catch cat you on the very next
00:32:58 --> 00:33:01 episode of Space Nuts until then bye-bye
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