00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 hi there thanks for joining us this is a
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Q&A edition of Space Nuts my name is
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 Andrew Dunley so good to have your
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09 company coming up we are going to answer
00:00:09 --> 00:00:10 a question from Christian about the
00:00:11 --> 00:00:13 origins of life we talked about that
00:00:14 --> 00:00:16 sort of in the last episode well uh
00:00:16 --> 00:00:18 there's a question on the table from the
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 audience renie wants to know about the
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 pitfalls of traveling to Mars aside from
00:00:22 --> 00:00:25 being you know next to Ill on mask uh
00:00:25 --> 00:00:27 there are other things to consider uh
00:00:27 --> 00:00:30 Lawrence is asking how we judge
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 distances in space and Lee wants to know
00:00:33 --> 00:00:34 about whether or not there's a
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 possibility in the future of James web
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 space telescopes two and three that's
00:00:40 --> 00:00:42 all coming up on this edition of Space
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 Nuts 15 seconds guidance is internal 10
00:00:47 --> 00:00:52 9 ignition sequence start Space Nuts 5 4
00:00:52 --> 00:00:57 3 2 2 5 4 3 2 Space Nuts as nuts
00:00:57 --> 00:01:01 reported feels good and in the stead of
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 Professor Fred Watson we are again
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04 joined by johy Horner professor of
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 astrophysics hi johy hey how are you
00:01:07 --> 00:01:11 going I am well good to see you again uh
00:01:11 --> 00:01:13 we have got plenty of questions to
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 answer they're all text questions today
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 I I didn't get the audio questions in
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 time but we'll save them up for future
00:01:20 --> 00:01:22 episodes um and we might as well get
00:01:22 --> 00:01:25 straight into it shall we yeah all right
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 happy New Year I've been listening to
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 your podcast regularly for over five
00:01:29 --> 00:01:30 years now
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 well you know some people go to prison
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 you did that and it's been a source of
00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 inspiration for me in fact uh it partly
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 motivated the work I currently do which
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 is why I wanted to share some exciting
00:01:43 --> 00:01:46 news with you uh We've finally published
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 our findings in the proceedings of the
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 National Academy of Sciences uh our
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 study explores the origins of life and
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 argues for its significant implications
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 not only for Earth but for other
00:01:59 --> 00:02:02 planetary bodies Across the Universe uh
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04 I'd be thrilled to hear your thoughts on
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 it uh Fred's mentioned my colleague Juan
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 Manuel Garcia ru's earlier work a few
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 times on the podcast recently we
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 embarked on an exciting new project
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 collaborating with the exomars science
00:02:17 --> 00:02:21 team at the Euro European Space Agency
00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 uh it's an incredibly stimulating area
00:02:23 --> 00:02:25 of research and I hope it pequs your
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 interest and that comes from Christian
00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 and forgive me if I mispronounced your
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 name Christian uh Jean wine or Jean
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 Wayne I hope you know I'm close but uh
00:02:37 --> 00:02:40 I'm I'm kind of Gob smacked that um
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 listening to us kind of partially
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 inspired this work that that's I never
00:02:45 --> 00:02:49 thought I would see the day where um
00:02:49 --> 00:02:51 something we did could lead to something
00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 like that not directly but obviously you
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 know a few things we've said has um got
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 somebody thinking which is what we hope
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 to to achieve well absolutely it's
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 fabulous and yeah congratulations to
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 yourself and Fred by proy for motivating
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 and inspiring I think that's fabulous
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 and that's one of the real values of
00:03:11 --> 00:03:12 this kind of what before we dive into
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 the awesome paper here one of the
00:03:15 --> 00:03:16 important things with podcasts like this
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 with TV shows with astronomy Outreach in
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 general or astrobiology Outreach is you
00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 don't know where it's going to end but
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 people get inspired and I wouldn't be
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 here if it wasn't for Patrick Mo doing
00:03:27 --> 00:03:29 the sky at night back when I was a kid
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 yeah and it's fabulous to see that
00:03:31 --> 00:03:33 impact and that you know just yeah
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 genuinely huge cudos to you and Fred for
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 having such fabulous podcast and clearly
00:03:38 --> 00:03:40 going out and inspiring people so that's
00:03:40 --> 00:03:42 fabulous and it's lovely to hear this
00:03:42 --> 00:03:45 story now the article itself is on um
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 pnas which is as it says the proceedings
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 of the National Academy of
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 Sciences the challenge with that and
00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 certainly I'd quite happily recommend
00:03:55 --> 00:03:56 people have a look at the paper but one
00:03:56 --> 00:03:57 of the challenges when you publish in a
00:03:58 --> 00:04:00 journal as prestigious as that is that
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 papers have to be very short and concise
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 which sometimes makes them harder to
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 dive into and I think the authors here
00:04:07 --> 00:04:08 have done a very good job of dealing
00:04:08 --> 00:04:11 with that but it is a slightly
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 challenging read if you're not banging
00:04:13 --> 00:04:14 the discipline but I've had read through
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 it and it's a fabulous piece of work and
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 really really interesting so what
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 they've done is building on a really
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 fabulous history called the MRI
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 experiments this was the idea that
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29 people are fascinated with how life gots
00:04:29 --> 00:04:33 started and way back in time there was
00:04:33 --> 00:04:35 this experiment done which essentially
00:04:35 --> 00:04:38 attempted to bottle the atmosphere that
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 the early Earth had and then pass
00:04:40 --> 00:04:41 electricity through it essentially
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 simulating lightning and UV exposure on
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 that early atmosphere and it showed that
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 you could get some kind of Prebiotic
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 chemicals forming from a very simple
00:04:50 --> 00:04:52 atmosphere in those kind of conditions
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 so it became very much a touchstone of
00:04:54 --> 00:04:55 early
00:04:55 --> 00:04:57 astrobiology went out of fashion for a
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 while because people argued that the
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 early Earth was like that but recent
00:05:01 --> 00:05:03 Studies have shown that those kind of
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 conditions probably were around were
00:05:05 --> 00:05:07 important this work then kind of Builds
00:05:07 --> 00:05:08 on that they've done a similar
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 experiment with a much more modern and
00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 much more nuanced setup and looked at
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 the results in a lot more detail than
00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 could have been done all that time ago
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 and what's really interesting is again
00:05:18 --> 00:05:21 with a really simple setup they get
00:05:21 --> 00:05:23 quite a complex stew of different
00:05:23 --> 00:05:25 ingredients forming you get this layer
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 of stuff floating on top of the water
00:05:28 --> 00:05:29 essentially but they've dug into that
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 and what they found that is that in that
00:05:32 --> 00:05:37 watery layer there is this what they
00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 almost describ as protoc celes globules
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 that are quite small that are spheres
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 with a membrane that are possibly hollow
00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 inside that could be you know Prebiotic
00:05:48 --> 00:05:49 chemical factories essentially the
00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 places where chemistry can happen in
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 really interesting
00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 ways that's really interesting and
00:05:55 --> 00:05:57 they're talking about these biomorphic
00:05:57 --> 00:06:00 Proto cells now there's positives and
00:06:00 --> 00:06:01 negatives to this so one of the
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 negatives from this research is that
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 when people look for evidence of the
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 earliest life on Earth or in future when
00:06:08 --> 00:06:08 they're looking for evidence in the
00:06:09 --> 00:06:10 earliest Life on Mars what are the
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 things they'd look for of these kind of
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 protocells things that are a precursor
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 to the cells of life we know and the
00:06:18 --> 00:06:20 argument has always been that these are
00:06:20 --> 00:06:21 separate to the formation of the
00:06:21 --> 00:06:22 compounds and therefore they could be
00:06:23 --> 00:06:24 seen as a discret bit of evidence of the
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 start of the origin of life and what
00:06:27 --> 00:06:29 this work is saying is that these can
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 should be something that forms concomly
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 that's the phrase is in the title forms
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 at the same time as those Prebiotic
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 chemicals so finding these globules is
00:06:37 --> 00:06:39 not necessarily evidence that life has
00:06:39 --> 00:06:42 begun but rather that the conditions
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 needed for life were there so it's maybe
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 saying when you look back at the
00:06:47 --> 00:06:49 historical record this is not a
00:06:49 --> 00:06:51 definitive sign of Life necessarily but
00:06:51 --> 00:06:54 maystead be a sign that of the
00:06:54 --> 00:06:55 conditions for life to been develop in
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 the future so that's a little bit sad
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 but on the flip side
00:07:00 --> 00:07:01 what it's showing is that these
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 conditions where you can start to get
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 the conditions needed for life to start
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 could be quite widely distributed
00:07:07 --> 00:07:08 because this was is fairly simple these
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10 are the kind of conditions you could get
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 on planets across the cosmos with
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 similar conditions to the Earth so the
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 other outcome from this is that this
00:07:17 --> 00:07:18 thing that sets the scene for the
00:07:18 --> 00:07:21 emergence of life could be more common
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 than people think that places where
00:07:22 --> 00:07:24 you've got oceans and atmospheres like
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 this could get these protocells these
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 globules that act as accelerators
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 incubators for advanced
00:07:32 --> 00:07:34 chemistry that could be more common
00:07:34 --> 00:07:36 through the cosmos and therefore the
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 scope for finding life out there could
00:07:39 --> 00:07:40 be greater than we thought so it's a
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 really interesting piece of work and I
00:07:42 --> 00:07:43 think the way that the balance the
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 positive and negative outcomes is really
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 quite cool now it is quite a complex
00:07:49 --> 00:07:50 paper to read because of the nature of
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 having to be condensed for this very
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 prestigious Journal but the results are
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 fabulous and if you do get on to it and
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 have a look at it the entire
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 presentation is available online and
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 some of the figures are beautiful some
00:08:02 --> 00:08:03 of the images that they've got showing
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 the globules and the microscopic
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 structures they've got a really
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 beautiful and it's the kind of thing
00:08:09 --> 00:08:11 that you almost wish that back when Yuri
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 and Miller were doing their experiment
00:08:13 --> 00:08:14 originally we could have had that same
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 quality of imagery and results to go
00:08:17 --> 00:08:18 back and look at so I think it's an
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20 absolutely fabulous piece of work and
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 I'm really interested to see where it
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 goes next and how people react and
00:08:25 --> 00:08:26 interact with it in other words what
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 research does it spawn next are we
00:08:29 --> 00:08:30 actually going to get to the point where
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 we get a distinct idea of where life
00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 began and also what the difference
00:08:36 --> 00:08:38 between life and not life is there's
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40 still not really a hard and fast
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 definition of when something is life and
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 when it isn't yeah which always makes my
00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 head hurt I'm an astronomer I'm not a
00:08:45 --> 00:08:47 biologist and I remember at one of the
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 early astrobiology conferences I went to
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 talking about life and Sly mentioned
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 viruses and all the biologists said oh
00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 no viruses aren't alive and that's
00:08:57 --> 00:08:58 totally contrary to my understanding as
00:08:58 --> 00:09:00 a lay person
00:09:00 --> 00:09:01 you know as a generalist as an
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 astronomer I was Gob smacked but
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 apparently by most biological
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 definitions a virus is not alive and I
00:09:08 --> 00:09:10 don't understand how that works now it's
00:09:10 --> 00:09:11 again back to that old carot about
00:09:12 --> 00:09:13 you've actually got a spectrum from
00:09:13 --> 00:09:14 definitely not life to definitely is
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 life and we have to put the dividing
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 line somewhere but I don't know that
00:09:19 --> 00:09:20 there's a consensus on that yet and that
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 kind of feeds into this as well in that
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 this kind of work might help people
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 figure out that process and therefore
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 help them put a line on this is where
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 consider it to be alive versus not
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 essentially so yeah fabulous work and
00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 even better I guess even more
00:09:35 --> 00:09:36 inspirational given the links to the
00:09:36 --> 00:09:37 podcast in the past I think that's
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 fabulous yeah I I'm chuffed I'm really I
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 mean Fred does most of the talking I but
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 I have always argued that the recipe for
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 Life exists everywhere you've just got
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 to have it um you know all put together
00:09:50 --> 00:09:53 properly and have the right oven to make
00:09:53 --> 00:09:57 it happen and um I I've always believed
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 that when when you look at how life
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 flourishes on Earth how a weed can find
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 the the slightest crack and grow yeah I
00:10:06 --> 00:10:08 mean it stands to reason that life could
00:10:08 --> 00:10:11 flourish anywhere in the universe if the
00:10:11 --> 00:10:14 conditions are right because we have
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 learned that the the the building blocks
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 of life all the bits and Bobs that we
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 need to to to to establish life exist
00:10:22 --> 00:10:25 they're flying around the universe as we
00:10:25 --> 00:10:28 speak um so it's not a giant
00:10:28 --> 00:10:31 leap uh um to consider that you know if
00:10:31 --> 00:10:34 if it hits something that's exactly
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 right boom you've got life somewhere
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 else uh I I don't doubt it exists now it
00:10:41 --> 00:10:45 might not be Life as we know it um um
00:10:45 --> 00:10:48 and as you said what is life anyway that
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 uh the same question that the great
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 George Harrison asked and um we yeah
00:10:53 --> 00:10:55 there is no real definition of what
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 constitutes life how do how do you uh
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 you know when was a kid I had a pet rock
00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 could have been alive you don't
00:11:03 --> 00:11:06 yeah uh where do you draw the
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 line real EST set out there as well so
00:11:08 --> 00:11:10 it's not like you're limited in space
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 we've got an incredible volume of space
00:11:12 --> 00:11:14 an incredible depth of time and what's
00:11:15 --> 00:11:16 always sh me is interesting is the
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 division between those who believe that
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 life won't be out there and those who
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 will and I saw this when I'm one of the
00:11:23 --> 00:11:24 members of the committee of the
00:11:24 --> 00:11:26 astrobiology Society of Great Britain
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 even though I left the country 15 years
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 ago now but there's an active
00:11:30 --> 00:11:31 astrobiology Community there and I first
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 started going to conferences with them
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 more than 20 years ago now and
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 astrobiology conferences are wonderful
00:11:38 --> 00:11:39 things because they're so
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 multidisciplinary so you've got learning
00:11:41 --> 00:11:43 in areas that you wouldn't normally
00:11:43 --> 00:11:44 encounter where you learn something new
00:11:44 --> 00:11:46 you've also got kind of sociological
00:11:46 --> 00:11:47 learning of the way that different
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 disciplines present you know different
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 disciplines have different color schemes
00:11:52 --> 00:11:53 which I'd never thought of you know I've
00:11:53 --> 00:11:55 been to Talks by geologists that were
00:11:55 --> 00:11:57 pink texts on a pale blue background
00:11:57 --> 00:11:59 which made my eyes bleed but you know
00:11:59 --> 00:12:00 you get these differences there but one
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 of the things that struck me early on
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 was that the people involved in
00:12:04 --> 00:12:06 astrobiology from the biology side were
00:12:06 --> 00:12:09 nearly all very young researchers really
00:12:09 --> 00:12:10 passionate and excited but because the
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 senior biologists were convinced that
00:12:13 --> 00:12:14 life was impossible and they thought
00:12:14 --> 00:12:15 that the search life elsewhere was a
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 Fool's errand that you just couldn't
00:12:18 --> 00:12:19 have
00:12:19 --> 00:12:23 life now if you think that the Earth is
00:12:23 --> 00:12:24 the only place in the universe with life
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 which you know we've got a sample of one
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 so that is still possible but you have
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 to assume that life is so incredibly
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 impo impossible that we a flick if you
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 make life even slightly more probable
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 than that even if it is not impossible
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 just but just vanishingly improbable
00:12:41 --> 00:12:43 because there is so much real estate
00:12:43 --> 00:12:44 because there are so many planets around
00:12:44 --> 00:12:47 so many stars in so many galaxies even
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 if life is vanishingly improbable it
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 must be everywhere it just might not be
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 close enough for us to find and that
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 divide is really Stark and it's a
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 philosophical one because we have no
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 evidence either way it becomes almost a
00:12:59 --> 00:13:01 belief structure people believe that we
00:13:01 --> 00:13:03 must be alone or people are convinced
00:13:03 --> 00:13:04 that we're not and the only way we'll
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 find out is by looking and by doing this
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 kind of work and I would love to think
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 that within our lifetimes we'll know the
00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 answer one one can only hope yes uh if
00:13:14 --> 00:13:18 you would like to find that paper um
00:13:18 --> 00:13:22 it's at um pnas.org pen.org oh that
00:13:22 --> 00:13:27 didn't sound good uh and uh yeah it's um
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 it it's uh
00:13:30 --> 00:13:33 this it's a long title but um it it
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 isant concomittant formation of
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 protocells and Prebiotic compounds on
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 rep plausible early Earth atmosphere
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 there you are uh and and yeah it's not a
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 long raate but it is uh yeah it can make
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 your brain hurt but uh most scientific
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 papers tend to do that but uh yeah and
00:13:51 --> 00:13:53 and thanks Christian for letting us know
00:13:53 --> 00:13:55 and and telling us that we had a a tiny
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 part to play in the development of your
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 work that that really excites me and um
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 I'll I'll make sure Fred's aware and he
00:14:02 --> 00:14:03 might want to talk about that when he
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 gets back uh to our next question uh
00:14:08 --> 00:14:10 this one comes from uh who is it it's
00:14:10 --> 00:14:14 from reny who is in um Southern uh Sunny
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 West Hills
00:14:16 --> 00:14:18 California um renie tends to ask very
00:14:18 --> 00:14:20 short sharp questions on a mission to
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 Mars would a spaceship Traverse through
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 the asteroid belt or would it travel
00:14:25 --> 00:14:29 above or below the belt yes really good
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 question now the asro belt as everybody
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34 imagines it is between the orbits of
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35 Mars and Jupiter so when we're going to
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 Mars we're still closer to the Sun than
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 the asro belt is so you're not really
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 going to be traversing the belt anyway
00:14:42 --> 00:14:46 however Mars is such a tiny puny planet
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 with fairly weak gravity and sorry Mars
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 but it's true that the in edge of the
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 Astro belt basically almost overlaps
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 with Mars's orbit and asteroids do cross
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 Mars's orbit all the time Ms therefore
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 gets hit more often than we do
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 fortunately Space is really really
00:15:01 --> 00:15:04 really big and there's a experiment you
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 can do that demonstrates this so if
00:15:06 --> 00:15:08 you've watched great movies like Star
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 Wars you've got asro belts in there as a
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 refuge for the brave heroic enemies of
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 society and you know being chased by the
00:15:16 --> 00:15:18 baddies they fly into the astroid belt
00:15:18 --> 00:15:19 and they have to dodge and weave to get
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 through and of course the baddies fail
00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 terribly crash into things and we chair
00:15:24 --> 00:15:25 because at heart we're all horrible
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 individuals but that's what happens so
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 they kind a cultural tick from that is
00:15:30 --> 00:15:31 that we imagine Astro belts has been
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 incredibly densely packed with material
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 now if the Astro belt was like that you
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 could go out tonight or any night of the
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 year and look up and the plane of the
00:15:40 --> 00:15:45 Sol system would have a band quite broad
00:15:45 --> 00:15:48 of the sky from Horizon to Horizon where
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 you see no stars where you cannot see
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 Jupiter when you cannot see Saturn
00:15:53 --> 00:15:54 because there's an asteroid in the way
00:15:54 --> 00:15:55 because every line of sight would hit an
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 asteroid and that would be glowing
00:15:57 --> 00:15:58 grayish because it'd be reflecting
00:15:59 --> 00:16:00 sunlight back to
00:16:00 --> 00:16:02 us that would be how the sky looks the
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 reality is that you don't see the
00:16:05 --> 00:16:08 asteroid belt you need a telescope or
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 binocular to see individual asteroids
00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 but to have an asteroid pass in front of
00:16:13 --> 00:16:15 a star and block its light to have an
00:16:15 --> 00:16:18 occultation is a sufficiently unusual
00:16:18 --> 00:16:19 event that astronomers will travel
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 across the world to set up in the shadow
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 of the asteroid to get data that tells
00:16:24 --> 00:16:25 you how big it is what its shape is by
00:16:26 --> 00:16:27 the shape of that shadow as it moves
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 across the Earth what that tells you is
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 that space is mostly empty the fact that
00:16:33 --> 00:16:34 it is so rare that one of these Ash
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 roads lines up with a star is telling
00:16:37 --> 00:16:38 you that essentially you're going to be
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 fairly safe traveling through the ashro
00:16:40 --> 00:16:42 belt when you talk about there being
00:16:42 --> 00:16:43 more than a million objects bigger than
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 a kilometer across you think space must
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 be papped but in actuality that belt is
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 so sparsely populated these days that if
00:16:51 --> 00:16:52 you were ever to be stood on the surface
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 of an asteroid and you weren't having to
00:16:55 --> 00:16:56 worry about how you get home or what
00:16:56 --> 00:16:57 you're going to breathe if you're stood
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59 on the surface of that as
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01 very few other asteroids will be near
00:17:01 --> 00:17:03 enough to see with your un eded eye
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 space is that big the way that you can
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 evidence that I guess is the fact we
00:17:08 --> 00:17:09 sent all these missions to the outer
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 planets and not one US Comm AC Cropper
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 but also when those missions want to
00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 visit an asteroid for a bit of added
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 value they've got to be very careful in
00:17:17 --> 00:17:18 picking their trajectory to get near
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21 enough to see something because space is
00:17:21 --> 00:17:23 pretty big so in terms of this question
00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 for Mission to Mars there is debris in
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27 the inner Sol system that you'd want to
00:17:27 --> 00:17:28 be aware of but you can basically just
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 pick your path and go the odds of you
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 intersecting an asteroid are pretty much
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 non-existent very very small smaller
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 debris may be but the bigger you get the
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 less stuff there is even going to the
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 outer solar system you just go through
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 you don't need to go above or below
00:17:45 --> 00:17:46 which is fortunate because the orbits of
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 the asteroids are quite puffed up you'll
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 get up to 30 or even 45 degree tilts
00:17:50 --> 00:17:53 before the asteroid belt starts to wear
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 and so that means you'd have to go very
00:17:55 --> 00:17:56 very high to get up and then get back
00:17:56 --> 00:17:58 down again a lot easier to go straight
00:17:58 --> 00:18:01 through yeah yeah uh and as you said um
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 nothing's hit one yet that we've set out
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 there so yeah there's plenty of room to
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 move through and as you said uh space is
00:18:09 --> 00:18:10 Big you might think it's a long way down
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 the street to the chemist to quite a a
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 famous book but um yes space is huge uh
00:18:16 --> 00:18:18 thanks renie great to hear from you this
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 John de
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 Horner time to take a short break to
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 tell you about our sponsor nordvpn and
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00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 hotels shopping malls anywhere that
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 Wi-Fi exists for open use basically and
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 let's be realistic there aren't many
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00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 won't be disappointed now back to the
00:20:28 --> 00:20:29 show
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 and I feel fine Space Nuts well it's not
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 Professor Fred Watson at the moment it's
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 Professor jonty Horner Fred's away and
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 that means the mice can play
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 jonty uh let's go to our next question
00:20:42 --> 00:20:44 hi your chaps Lawrence from London
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 England here I have a question about how
00:20:47 --> 00:20:49 we map the night sky and judge distances
00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 accurately specifically how can we make
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54 any kind of objective claim regarding
00:20:54 --> 00:20:56 the distance and positions of particular
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 stars or planets uh when we know effects
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 like gravitational lensing can actively
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 disconnect what we see with what is
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 actually out there it seems that without
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09 any sort of unaffected control against
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 which we make these judgments it's not
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 all U some giant if not educated uh
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 guessing game apologies if I've missed
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 something incredibly obvious here love
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 the Pod uh listen to it every day and uh
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 to and from work and congratulations
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 Fred on the big step in your career
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 you're an INSP ation to all jez chaps
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31 all the best that's another one I'll
00:21:31 --> 00:21:36 have to send to Fred uh but um yes um
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 yeah measuring things in space how do we
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 get it right how do we uh compensate for
00:21:41 --> 00:21:42 gravitational
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 lensing um I think we've had similar
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 questions in the past but it's always
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 good to revisit these things absolutely
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 and it's a good question and we actually
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51 cover a lot of this when we teach
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 astronomy so I've taught this I've gone
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55 through it and it is true that the
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 distances you get are not per perfectly
00:21:59 --> 00:22:04 precise so we can't say that an object 4
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 million light years away is exactly 4
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08 million there'll be an uncertainty with
00:22:08 --> 00:22:10 that but the way that we've got the
00:22:10 --> 00:22:14 distances worked out is a series of
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 different runs on a ladder that's how
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 it's often described the distance ladder
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 and there are different techniques we
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 can use that find objects that are more
00:22:23 --> 00:22:26 easy to spot but are rarer So within our
00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 solar system it's it took a long time
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 but people got the distances worked out
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33 there were clever experiments that went
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35 on all the way back to the 1600s and
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 even earlier trying to estimate the
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 scale of the solar system famously o
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 Roma back in the 1670s I believe it was
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 did some cool experiments trying to
00:22:46 --> 00:22:49 measure the speed of light looking at
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 the eclipses of the moons of Jupiter and
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53 in order to measure the speed of light
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 he had to have an implicit understanding
00:22:55 --> 00:22:57 of the scale of the universe or at least
00:22:57 --> 00:23:00 a scale Loc in the solar system in order
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 to make that happen and that scale the
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 distance of the planets from the Sun had
00:23:05 --> 00:23:08 got relatively well established by them
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 than to clever observations using
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 trigonometry and using little bits of
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 things like trigonometric Parallax now
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 parala is going to become quite
00:23:16 --> 00:23:18 important so within the solar system
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 once you've got your ruler worked out if
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 you know the orbital period of an object
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26 you know it's semi- major axis which is
00:23:26 --> 00:23:29 the scale of its orbit we also by
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31 observing from different locations can
00:23:31 --> 00:23:33 get quite a good immediate measurement
00:23:33 --> 00:23:34 of the distance even to things we've
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 only just discovered If You observe from
00:23:37 --> 00:23:38 two different sides of the planet you'll
00:23:38 --> 00:23:40 see the thing move a little bit against
00:23:40 --> 00:23:41 the background stars and that gives you
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 a distance now that technique that idea
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 of pamps comes in really important to
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48 measure the distance to the nearest
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 stars and this is what people were doing
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 by the early 1800s you've got people
00:23:52 --> 00:23:54 like Johan Friedrich Bessel were doing
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 this way before the days of optical
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 obser of photographic observing should I
00:24:00 --> 00:24:02 say this is all Optical with the eye but
00:24:02 --> 00:24:04 they were taking very precise
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 measurements of stars against a
00:24:06 --> 00:24:07 background stars using the biggest
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 telescopes of the
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 day and they use this technique called
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 trigonometric paralax now if you're
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 driving while listening to the podcast
00:24:15 --> 00:24:16 don't do this but if you sat somewhere
00:24:16 --> 00:24:18 safe you can do this as an experiment
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 actually see how it works so if you put
00:24:20 --> 00:24:22 your finger up in front of your face and
00:24:22 --> 00:24:23 close your right eye and look where your
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 finger is against the background then
00:24:25 --> 00:24:27 open your right eye and close the left
00:24:27 --> 00:24:28 you'll see your finger move against the
00:24:28 --> 00:24:31 background y the closer your finger to
00:24:31 --> 00:24:32 your face the bigger the
00:24:32 --> 00:24:34 movement so that's trigonometric
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 Parallax and it's part of how our brains
00:24:37 --> 00:24:38 help us do things like catch a ball that
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 surround to us we get a sense of depth
00:24:41 --> 00:24:43 perception now what I want you to
00:24:43 --> 00:24:45 imagine is that without killing you or
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 causing you pain I'm able to separate
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 your eyes and instead of them being a
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 couple of inches apart make them 300
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 million kilometers apart so I'm putting
00:24:53 --> 00:24:54 them on one side of the Earth around the
00:24:54 --> 00:24:56 Sun and then the other that gives you a
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 much bigger Baseline and that Baseline
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 is enough that nearby Stars when you
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 look at them through a telescope will
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 appear to move against the background
00:25:04 --> 00:25:05 stars in just the same way that your
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 finger does when you look from the left
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 eye and the right eye so that gives us a
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11 way to measure the distance to those
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 Stars so long as we know the distance
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15 that the Earth has moved that's the
00:25:15 --> 00:25:16 distance of the Earth from the Sun so if
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 we know the size of the Baseline we know
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 the angle that the Stars moving through
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 fairly simple trigonometry allows you to
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 calculate the distance and that gives us
00:25:25 --> 00:25:27 the distance to the nearest stars and
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 the better your tell up the better your
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 facility the more accurately you can
00:25:31 --> 00:25:32 measure that which is why the guia
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 mission at the minute is so incredible
00:25:35 --> 00:25:36 the guia mission is a spacecraft
00:25:36 --> 00:25:38 floating around out there in space with
00:25:38 --> 00:25:41 an incredibly precise camera that is
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43 among many other things measuring the
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45 parats and the proper motion of about
00:25:45 --> 00:25:49 two billion with a B two billion stars
00:25:49 --> 00:25:51 that's depend depending on the number
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 you estimate a half a percent to 1% of
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 all stars in our galaxy will be able to
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 have their distance measured by this
00:25:59 --> 00:26:01 spacecraft but eventually things get so
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 far away that you can't use paradilla
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 anymore they just move too little for
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07 you to measure it how then do you get
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 the distance to the next subject well
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 you go back to the early
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 1900s and you had a great astronomer I
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 think it was henrieta levit who did this
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 fabulous fabulous work as one of the
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 calculators one of the astronomers at a
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 great American Observatory and she was
00:26:25 --> 00:26:26 looking at photographic plates of the
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29 large melanic cloud which is one of our
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 satellite galaxies and studying them and
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 what she realized was that there was a
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 group of variable Stars which we call
00:26:36 --> 00:26:38 the seid variables after Delta sephi
00:26:38 --> 00:26:40 which is the brightest one in the sky
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 that were all varying periodically they
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 were getting brighter and fainter but
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48 the stars that were the same brightness
00:26:48 --> 00:26:49 that were varying this way also varied
00:26:49 --> 00:26:51 with the same period now because all
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53 these stars were in the same galaxy a
00:26:53 --> 00:26:55 long way away they were essentially at
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 the same distance the size of that
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 Galaxy comp compared to its distance is
00:26:59 --> 00:27:00 quite small so all the starsu was
00:27:00 --> 00:27:02 studying in that field of view in that
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 Galaxy were effectively the same
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 distance ah so the stars that looked
00:27:07 --> 00:27:09 fenter actually were fenter and the
00:27:09 --> 00:27:11 stars that looked brighter actually were
00:27:11 --> 00:27:13 intrinsically brighter and what she
00:27:13 --> 00:27:15 found was that there was a relationship
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 between the period of these oscillations
00:27:17 --> 00:27:18 and the
00:27:18 --> 00:27:20 brightness which is brilliant what that
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 means is if you see a star oscillating
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 in this way and you measure its period
00:27:25 --> 00:27:29 you know intrinsically how bright it is
00:27:29 --> 00:27:31 and you know how bright it is in the sky
00:27:31 --> 00:27:33 so that allows you to work out its
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 distance there's an equation we can use
00:27:35 --> 00:27:36 which allows you to compare the true
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 brightness and The observed brightness
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 so that gives you an independent measure
00:27:41 --> 00:27:42 of distance that tells you which of
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 these stars are closer or further away
00:27:44 --> 00:27:46 across the sky but you need to calibrate
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 that you can say that one star is closer
00:27:49 --> 00:27:50 than another but until you know the
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 distance of one of the Stars that's not
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 really useful but fortunately the very
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 closest of these seped variable Stars
00:27:58 --> 00:27:59 are close enough to also measure the
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 distance with padal apps so that gives
00:28:02 --> 00:28:05 you a way to quantify the scale now
00:28:05 --> 00:28:06 these are quite Bright Stars so you can
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 even see them nearby galaxies so that
00:28:09 --> 00:28:10 gives you another rung on the distance
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 ladder and you can see these Stars you
00:28:13 --> 00:28:14 can spot them you can measure their
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 variability which tells you how luminous
00:28:17 --> 00:28:18 they are how intrinsically bright they
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20 are and you can measure how bright they
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 appear and use that to get the distance
00:28:22 --> 00:28:25 and that gets you out a bit further but
00:28:25 --> 00:28:27 then again they get too faint you can't
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29 see them but there are some types of
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 supernova explosion that it turns out
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 are very very regular in their Peak
00:28:34 --> 00:28:36 Luminosity how much light they give off
00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 so if you see a supernova behav in a
00:28:39 --> 00:28:40 certain way can identify it's one of
00:28:40 --> 00:28:43 these kind of supern noi then that tells
00:28:43 --> 00:28:45 you you know exactly how luminous it got
00:28:45 --> 00:28:46 and once again you can measure the
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 brightness as we see it put the two
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 together to get the distance with those
00:28:52 --> 00:28:54 we can use a seid variables to set the
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 standard these standard candles you can
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 get the distance of supern noi and that
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 gives you your distance scale so there
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 are other ladders other rungs on this
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 ladder but that's the essential way it
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 works now it's not perfect there are
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 uncertainties that accumulate as you go
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 further and further away so the more
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 distant something is from us the larger
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 the uncertainty on its distance will be
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20 so for objects in the solar system we
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 know the distances with Incredible
00:29:22 --> 00:29:23 accuracy nowaday particularly for the
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 objects we've studied really well the
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28 nearest Stars again we know that very
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31 very accurately but not as precisely as
00:29:31 --> 00:29:32 we know the distance to the objects in
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 the solar system and the further you go
00:29:35 --> 00:29:37 the bigger the uncertainty the bigger
00:29:37 --> 00:29:38 the error gets on the measurement
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40 compared to the measurement itself now
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 all of these things like gravitational
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 lensing and stuff like that interfere
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 for some objects in some
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 locations but they're not the end of the
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51 world because they're a small subset of
00:29:51 --> 00:29:53 the objects and there are small effect
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55 on the total of it so if you've got and
00:29:55 --> 00:29:57 this is getting a bit further from my
00:29:57 --> 00:29:58 personal area that's expertise but if
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 you've got a distant Galaxy that is
00:30:00 --> 00:30:01 lensed by a foreground
00:30:01 --> 00:30:04 object the distance along the different
00:30:04 --> 00:30:05 light paths is still going to be very
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 similar to it coming direct you're only
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 deviating by a couple of degrees off
00:30:09 --> 00:30:12 that line and then getting bent back so
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13 even if that lights had to travel a
00:30:13 --> 00:30:15 little bit further the uncertainty is
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17 still within all the other uncertainties
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 there so that's a part of the story as
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 well and we can observe these things now
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 one of the nice things is for some of
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26 the really extremely distant things that
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 are lensed that lensing gives us A
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 Brighter Image than we would get if the
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 thing in the forground wasn't there
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34 which has allowed people to observe
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 these Supernova and them to help give an
00:30:36 --> 00:30:38 independent confirmation of their
00:30:38 --> 00:30:40 extreme distances you've also had a
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 couple of qu occasion I believe where
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 you've got these fragmented lensed
00:30:44 --> 00:30:46 images these beautiful things you see in
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 some of the asro photos from things like
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50 Hubble we've got a distant Galaxy with a
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52 lens in the foreground and you've got
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 multiple images of the same galaxy and I
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57 believe that s to be corrected on this
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 that there has been a case at least once
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 where a supernova has been seen in the
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 different fragments of the lens coming
00:31:03 --> 00:31:04 at slightly different times because the
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06 light paths are different lenss so we
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 can even see the differences in the
00:31:09 --> 00:31:11 distance for the different images
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 because of the asymmetry in the lens
00:31:14 --> 00:31:15 fact that it's not perfectly centered
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17 essentially so there's a lot we can dig
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 into there and if you want to know more
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21 about it searching you know the kind of
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 Galactic distance scale the you know the
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 distance ladder looking up SEF with
00:31:25 --> 00:31:28 variables and the story of the um
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 incredible scientists in the early 1900s
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 the women who worked there under this
00:31:33 --> 00:31:34 remarkable science is well worth looking
00:31:35 --> 00:31:36 into as well you've got people like
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39 Henry to levit Annie Jump camon who did
00:31:39 --> 00:31:40 similar work at the same Institute at
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 the time these kind of overlooked Heroes
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44 of astronomy that did absolutely
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 astonishing work and led to this
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 knowledge that we have
00:31:49 --> 00:31:52 now wow um there go Lawrence I bet you
00:31:52 --> 00:31:54 didn't expect that answer but uh you've
00:31:54 --> 00:31:57 got plenty to work with so uh off you go
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 do your home work and get back to us
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 when you've got when you've got another
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 follow-up question but yeah uh it
00:32:05 --> 00:32:08 um yeah I mean it's a great explanation
00:32:08 --> 00:32:10 and there's a lot more to it than meets
00:32:11 --> 00:32:15 the eye bom
00:32:15 --> 00:32:21 bom Space Nuts um one final question and
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 this one comes from Lee I'm listening to
00:32:25 --> 00:32:26 the episode discussing the 9 to1
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 subscription rate the James web space
00:32:29 --> 00:32:33 telescopes time I understand that jwst
00:32:33 --> 00:32:36 costs a few dollars but um surely most
00:32:36 --> 00:32:39 of the cost was in uh tooling
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 Contracting Etc wouldn't NASA have
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44 contract options to build additional
00:32:44 --> 00:32:47 systems such as in the event of a launch
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 failure since the tooling and such is
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 already made and the science value is so
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 high would they ever consider consider
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 building James web space telescopes to
00:32:57 --> 00:33:01 and three just seems logical to buy in B
00:33:01 --> 00:33:03 keep up the good work she's Lee uh I
00:33:04 --> 00:33:05 think when Fred and I were first talking
00:33:05 --> 00:33:09 about James web um we we talked about
00:33:09 --> 00:33:10 the fact that they had to get this
00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 absolutely right first go because there
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 was no going back if they made a mistake
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17 so that may well help answer the
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20 question from Lee but uh your thoughts
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23 jonty there aren't any plans at the
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26 minute for jwsc Mark I Mark II um it's
00:33:26 --> 00:33:29 interesting when you go back to Hubble
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 but the US military has spare hubbles
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 lying around so there's great great
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 Observatory coming online in a few years
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 time when it gets launched um Nancy
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 Grace Roman telescope I think it is that
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 has its origin in the fact that Hub
00:33:44 --> 00:33:45 space telescopes are now all technology
00:33:45 --> 00:33:47 for the military so NASA got approached
00:33:47 --> 00:33:49 apparently and told oh by the way we've
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 got three or four spare hubbles lying
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54 around could you use them um and the
00:33:54 --> 00:33:55 ones that the military were using
00:33:55 --> 00:33:56 obviously point in a different direction
00:33:57 --> 00:33:58 because they look down rather than
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 looking up I don't think that's the same
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 story with jwst and part of the issue
00:34:04 --> 00:34:06 here as well is a development time um
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 jwsc famously launched about 20 years
00:34:09 --> 00:34:11 after it was initially scheduled to and
00:34:11 --> 00:34:13 the first discussions the first planning
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 for jwsd was actually in the 1980s and
00:34:16 --> 00:34:18 it took until 2021 for it to get
00:34:18 --> 00:34:20 launched that's really challenging and
00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 there is nothing in the pipeline to do
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 it now the idea of having the production
00:34:25 --> 00:34:28 line is something that's become Rel for
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31 smaller telescopes we at unq have this
00:34:31 --> 00:34:32 fabulous Observatory Mount Kent
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 Observatory where we've got a dedicated
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36 facility for finding and characterizing
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 planets around the stars and we're able
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 to do that on a university scale budget
00:34:41 --> 00:34:43 with our collaborators because for
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 smaller telescopes there are now
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 companies who produce these things on a
00:34:47 --> 00:34:48 production line and we're having
00:34:48 --> 00:34:50 essentially the Model T Ford revolution
00:34:50 --> 00:34:53 in telescopes where for small telescopes
00:34:53 --> 00:34:55 people and not and by small telescopes
00:34:55 --> 00:34:57 here I'm talking telescopes with mirrors
00:34:57 --> 00:34:59 that are 7 ctim or a meter across so
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00 they're still a lot bigger than your
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 typical backyard scale but they're small
00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 compared to jwsc or compared to the ver
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 ruin Observatory things like that yeah
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10 and there is sufficient demand from the
00:35:10 --> 00:35:12 military from commercial interests from
00:35:12 --> 00:35:15 astronomers and from amateur astronomers
00:35:15 --> 00:35:17 that it's now sufficiently profitable
00:35:17 --> 00:35:18 for companies to do these things on a
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21 production line and what that's led to
00:35:21 --> 00:35:22 is a dropping the cost of these
00:35:22 --> 00:35:24 telescopes of an order of magnitude
00:35:24 --> 00:35:28 which lets us build these bespoke observ
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30 that are tasked with a single task to do
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 a single thing the problem is that that
00:35:33 --> 00:35:36 production line thing is okay for
00:35:36 --> 00:35:39 telescopes at a 7 cm or a meter across
00:35:39 --> 00:35:41 it's not telescopes at The Cutting Edge
00:35:41 --> 00:35:44 of the biggest in the world the most
00:35:44 --> 00:35:45 complex in the world these are
00:35:45 --> 00:35:46 relatively simple
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 telescopes there is no motivation as far
00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 as I can tell it's not a good Financial
00:35:53 --> 00:35:54 thing to say we're going to build a
00:35:54 --> 00:35:56 production line for jwss because it's
00:35:56 --> 00:35:58 just not the market for that them the
00:35:58 --> 00:36:00 cost is so high the use case is so small
00:36:00 --> 00:36:01 I'd love there to be nine out there but
00:36:01 --> 00:36:03 I would lay odds that if there were nine
00:36:03 --> 00:36:05 JW SDS they would still be over
00:36:05 --> 00:36:07 subscribed by 9 to1 because there's just
00:36:07 --> 00:36:09 so much science that we want to get done
00:36:09 --> 00:36:12 the focus is on the next generation of
00:36:12 --> 00:36:13 telescopes there a Vera Rubin
00:36:13 --> 00:36:15 Observatory coming online in the next
00:36:15 --> 00:36:17 year or two that'll see first light that
00:36:17 --> 00:36:19 will revolutionize astronomy I'm really
00:36:19 --> 00:36:21 excited about that and that's
00:36:21 --> 00:36:24 groundbased but that's an 8.3 M diameter
00:36:24 --> 00:36:27 primary mirror but a a incredibly
00:36:27 --> 00:36:29 incredible fast photographic lens so
00:36:29 --> 00:36:31 it'll have it's like having a really
00:36:31 --> 00:36:33 fast lens on your camera but it been 8.3
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 me across that will let people survey
00:36:36 --> 00:36:39 the entire Sky once a week down to
00:36:39 --> 00:36:41 magnitude 20 which is about a billion
00:36:41 --> 00:36:43 times fenter than the human eye can see
00:36:43 --> 00:36:45 every single week and that's predicted
00:36:45 --> 00:36:47 to increase the number of objects we
00:36:47 --> 00:36:48 know in the solar system by factor of 10
00:36:48 --> 00:36:51 to 100 times within a year to do similar
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54 things for the rest of astronomy and
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56 things like that things like the James
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 web which are really at The Cutting Edge
00:36:58 --> 00:37:01 of what we can do tend to be one-offs
00:37:01 --> 00:37:02 because they're incredibly expensive
00:37:02 --> 00:37:04 they require huge amounts of Technology
00:37:04 --> 00:37:07 Innovation to make happen but they're
00:37:07 --> 00:37:09 also such an incredibly long lead time
00:37:09 --> 00:37:10 that by the time it's up there people
00:37:10 --> 00:37:12 are planning the next big things yeah
00:37:12 --> 00:37:13 and we're talking for space
00:37:13 --> 00:37:15 observatories about telescopes that want
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17 launch until the late 2030s early 2040s
00:37:17 --> 00:37:19 now nothing that I'm aware of is a
00:37:20 --> 00:37:22 direct analog for James web it's
00:37:22 --> 00:37:24 probably worth having aside here I like
00:37:24 --> 00:37:26 to talk about this you sometimes get
00:37:26 --> 00:37:28 people saying why do we spend so much
00:37:28 --> 00:37:30 money on this why do the US governments
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33 continue to give billions to NASA and
00:37:33 --> 00:37:34 trly spend that money on things like
00:37:34 --> 00:37:38 curing cancer you know really you
00:37:38 --> 00:37:42 question semi- regularly and for
00:37:42 --> 00:37:46 me what we as scientists always Overlook
00:37:46 --> 00:37:48 is the fact that the motivations of
00:37:48 --> 00:37:49 governments to fund these things are not
00:37:49 --> 00:37:51 really the science we always when we get
00:37:51 --> 00:37:53 asked that question so but it's awesome
00:37:53 --> 00:37:55 and we want to learn stuff and we're so
00:37:55 --> 00:37:57 passionate and that's a really valid
00:37:57 --> 00:37:58 answer if you share that passion but if
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 you don't it's meaningless what's
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 actually going on with NASA and with
00:38:04 --> 00:38:05 other governments around the world that
00:38:05 --> 00:38:06 are pumping huge amounts of money into
00:38:06 --> 00:38:08 this is that they're aware of the return
00:38:08 --> 00:38:10 that they'll got on their investment to
00:38:10 --> 00:38:12 build James web was ridiculously
00:38:12 --> 00:38:14 expensive I think it's approaching 10
00:38:14 --> 00:38:16 billion US Dollars that's billion with a
00:38:16 --> 00:38:19 B again that's a lot for a CO government
00:38:19 --> 00:38:21 to invest especially when you think yeah
00:38:21 --> 00:38:22 should we be investing in curing cancer
00:38:22 --> 00:38:25 but to do that you're looking at solving
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27 technology problems that have never been
00:38:27 --> 00:38:28 solved building cameras to make
00:38:28 --> 00:38:30 measurements with a Precision that's
00:38:30 --> 00:38:31 never been
00:38:31 --> 00:38:33 achieved and that drives a huge amount
00:38:33 --> 00:38:35 of technological
00:38:35 --> 00:38:38 innovation for the government funding
00:38:38 --> 00:38:39 NASA the great majority of the people
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 aren't at all interested in the science
00:38:42 --> 00:38:43 but what they're aware of is that
00:38:43 --> 00:38:45 historically since it Formed without
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48 fail year on year NASA has had return on
00:38:48 --> 00:38:50 investment of at least 10 to one so for
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53 every dollar that is invested the return
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 to the economy is more than $10 and
00:38:55 --> 00:38:57 there is no other business that I'm
00:38:57 --> 00:38:58 aware of of that has that return on
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00 investment so commercially it makes a
00:39:00 --> 00:39:03 lot of sense but also for things like
00:39:03 --> 00:39:05 curing cancer if you're a doctor who
00:39:05 --> 00:39:09 wants to cure cancer and you want to be
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11 able to study the human body you're
00:39:11 --> 00:39:12 going to need better cameras better
00:39:12 --> 00:39:15 detection tools better software but
00:39:15 --> 00:39:17 you're a doctor you're saving lives you
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19 can't say I'm going to let my patients
00:39:19 --> 00:39:20 die because I'm going to go spend five
00:39:20 --> 00:39:22 years developing new tool that's not
00:39:23 --> 00:39:25 going to happen but the tools that are
00:39:25 --> 00:39:28 developed for these astronomical things
00:39:28 --> 00:39:30 for instruments for facilities for space
00:39:30 --> 00:39:32 observatories then find use in other
00:39:32 --> 00:39:34 areas you know I've got you know my
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37 pocket based fruit-based device my phone
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39 um other other brands are obviously
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41 available has a camera in it that when
00:39:41 --> 00:39:43 you take photos they're awesome and all
00:39:43 --> 00:39:45 the phone brands like this but the
00:39:45 --> 00:39:46 camera itself's terrible you know you
00:39:46 --> 00:39:49 look at the phone side on and you've got
00:39:49 --> 00:39:50 a tiny little light path to a sensor
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 with mass-produced
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 lenses the images that these phones make
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 are actually absolutely got awful
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00 they're terrible images because the
00:40:00 --> 00:40:02 Optics is terrible because it's cheap
00:40:02 --> 00:40:06 reproducible very small but they're God
00:40:06 --> 00:40:09 awful in a very predictable way all the
00:40:09 --> 00:40:10 Optics have the same flaws from one
00:40:10 --> 00:40:12 front to the next which means in the
00:40:12 --> 00:40:15 camera software all of those flaws can
00:40:15 --> 00:40:18 be reverse managed out so you go from a
00:40:18 --> 00:40:21 blurry kind of you know hole of mirrors
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23 type experience to a beautiful image
00:40:23 --> 00:40:26 because it's reproducibly bad the
00:40:26 --> 00:40:28 detector in that pH on the software
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29 that's used for that image processing
00:40:29 --> 00:40:31 all of that stuff that we take so for
00:40:31 --> 00:40:33 granted in our pocket has come from
00:40:33 --> 00:40:35 astronomy research from the image
00:40:35 --> 00:40:36 processing and the Imaging that's done
00:40:36 --> 00:40:39 by astronomers and that's really why
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41 governments invested this for you and I
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43 and for bulk of the audience we just
00:40:43 --> 00:40:45 want we're just in it for the research
00:40:45 --> 00:40:47 and the excitement and the discoveries
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 but for the people in power they see the
00:40:49 --> 00:40:51 benefits that this brings that are
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53 clearly very different to the scientific
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 outcomes and that's why it gets funded
00:40:56 --> 00:40:57 and when you're passionate about
00:40:57 --> 00:40:59 something when you care you don't think
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01 about that narrative you just talk about
00:41:01 --> 00:41:03 the excitement and the wonder which is
00:41:03 --> 00:41:06 preaching to the converted but the
00:41:06 --> 00:41:07 skeptical person down the pub who wants
00:41:07 --> 00:41:09 to know where the tax dollars are going
00:41:09 --> 00:41:10 in a time when we've got a cost of
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13 living crisis telling them about the
00:41:13 --> 00:41:14 Wonder of science isn't going to win
00:41:14 --> 00:41:16 them over no telling them about the
00:41:16 --> 00:41:19 other benefits they'll understand and I
00:41:19 --> 00:41:20 think it's really important to have
00:41:20 --> 00:41:21 those
00:41:21 --> 00:41:22 discussions even if they're not the
00:41:22 --> 00:41:25 wonder that we all want to espouse and
00:41:25 --> 00:41:26 it's good to have the reality of the
00:41:26 --> 00:41:27 other benefits as well
00:41:27 --> 00:41:30 indeed yeah well said um there you go
00:41:30 --> 00:41:32 Lee uh probably not a James web Space
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 Telescope 2 and three but I can tell you
00:41:36 --> 00:41:39 um for sure and jonty hinted at this
00:41:39 --> 00:41:43 over the next uh gosh well between now
00:41:43 --> 00:41:48 in 2051 and uh Beyond there are plans to
00:41:48 --> 00:41:54 launch 22 23 space telescopes so um they
00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 won't be James web they'll all have
00:41:56 --> 00:41:58 different tasks one of them will be
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 studying gravitational waves um others
00:42:01 --> 00:42:04 will be looking at gamma rays um that
00:42:04 --> 00:42:06 the LI gos on but they are sorry oh
00:42:06 --> 00:42:08 there's exoplanets as well and there
00:42:08 --> 00:42:11 there's old yes and it's Jes web is a
00:42:11 --> 00:42:13 very um multi-use tool so it's good for
00:42:13 --> 00:42:15 everything but you quite often get more
00:42:15 --> 00:42:17 mileage by making a cheaper tool that's
00:42:17 --> 00:42:19 good for one thing yeah and a lot of
00:42:19 --> 00:42:20 these facilities are designed for a
00:42:20 --> 00:42:24 specific task yeah so in the coming few
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27 decades yeah 22 23 at least space
00:42:27 --> 00:42:29 telescopes are going to be launched so
00:42:29 --> 00:42:32 um it's it's not something that stopped
00:42:32 --> 00:42:34 at James web by any means what I make
00:42:34 --> 00:42:36 quickly on that topic is actually hop
00:42:36 --> 00:42:38 off one sot box and climb up on another
00:42:38 --> 00:42:42 one okay which is the challenge involved
00:42:43 --> 00:42:44 in this so you say you know next 20
00:42:44 --> 00:42:45 years we're talking about maybe another
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 20 or 30 space telescopes Spar and we
00:42:47 --> 00:42:49 might get a bit more than that in
00:42:49 --> 00:42:52 actuality but one of the things uh
00:42:52 --> 00:42:54 silink proponents will often argue to
00:42:54 --> 00:42:56 astronomers when astronomers say oh no
00:42:56 --> 00:42:57 the sky is getting ruined and going to
00:42:57 --> 00:42:58 be damaging from Grand based Optical
00:42:58 --> 00:43:01 observatories it's just oh while Grand
00:43:01 --> 00:43:03 Bas observatories are obsolete anyway
00:43:03 --> 00:43:04 Elon Musk can just launch all your
00:43:04 --> 00:43:06 telescopes to space and that's a problem
00:43:06 --> 00:43:08 solved and it just doesn't work quite
00:43:08 --> 00:43:10 way I mean I did some reading around
00:43:10 --> 00:43:12 when this debate kicked up again there
00:43:12 --> 00:43:14 are more than
00:43:14 --> 00:43:16 10 professional groundbased
00:43:16 --> 00:43:18 astronomical telescopes on Earth that
00:43:18 --> 00:43:20 are doing research that roll over
00:43:20 --> 00:43:22 subscribed the smallest of them are
00:43:22 --> 00:43:23 things like up at our Observatory at
00:43:23 --> 00:43:25 Mount Kent at Mount Kent we've got more
00:43:25 --> 00:43:28 than a dozen telescopes all actively on
00:43:28 --> 00:43:30 Sky every night doing really good
00:43:30 --> 00:43:32 research and the smallest of them are
00:43:32 --> 00:43:35 are 70 CM telescopes we're involved in a
00:43:35 --> 00:43:37 space mission called twinkle twinkle is
00:43:37 --> 00:43:39 looking at putting a 70 CM telescope in
00:43:39 --> 00:43:41 orbit to do infrared observing and it's
00:43:42 --> 00:43:43 kind of crowd crowd sourcing it and
00:43:43 --> 00:43:45 building it off the shelf it's a new
00:43:45 --> 00:43:47 model of telescopes which makes it
00:43:47 --> 00:43:51 hugely cheaper that will cost 70
00:43:51 --> 00:43:55 million our 70 CM telescope on the
00:43:55 --> 00:43:56 ground cost us a quarter of a million
00:43:56 --> 00:43:58 dollar
00:43:58 --> 00:44:00 there is just not the money to reproduce
00:44:00 --> 00:44:02 what we've got on the ground in space
00:44:02 --> 00:44:04 there is also not the capacity to launch
00:44:04 --> 00:44:06 a really top end stuff you know the very
00:44:06 --> 00:44:09 Rubin Observatory is going to be an 8.3
00:44:09 --> 00:44:12 meter mirror with a 5.3 meter secondary
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15 crazy huge thing the biggest telescopes
00:44:15 --> 00:44:17 in building at the minute have nearly 40
00:44:17 --> 00:44:18 meter diameter mirrors there's just no
00:44:18 --> 00:44:21 way you could launch them though
00:44:21 --> 00:44:23 unfortunately it's a bit specious to
00:44:23 --> 00:44:24 come back and say we don't need to
00:44:24 --> 00:44:26 protect the night sky because you can
00:44:26 --> 00:44:27 just launch all the big up spair we
00:44:28 --> 00:44:30 can't afford to unfortunately though we
00:44:30 --> 00:44:31 need the grand B stuff as well and the
00:44:31 --> 00:44:34 grand B stuff does amazing work indeed
00:44:34 --> 00:44:38 it does yes um very well said again and
00:44:38 --> 00:44:40 Lee thanks for the question it certainly
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43 um sparked jonty into
00:44:43 --> 00:44:46 action um but uh yeah thanks uh for
00:44:46 --> 00:44:47 getting in touch with us Lee Lawrence
00:44:47 --> 00:44:50 renie and Christian who made up our
00:44:50 --> 00:44:54 panel today uh with our text questions
00:44:54 --> 00:44:56 uh thanks as always to you and if you've
00:44:56 --> 00:44:58 got questions for us uh don't forget to
00:44:58 --> 00:45:01 send them in Via our website because um
00:45:01 --> 00:45:02 that's the best way to get them through
00:45:02 --> 00:45:04 to us whether they're text or audio we
00:45:04 --> 00:45:06 take them all if you want to put a
00:45:07 --> 00:45:08 question on a paper airplane and just
00:45:08 --> 00:45:10 throw it it might get to us you never
00:45:11 --> 00:45:14 know uh and jonty as always thanks so
00:45:14 --> 00:45:16 much we'll catch up with you again next
00:45:16 --> 00:45:18 time looking forward to it thanks for
00:45:18 --> 00:45:20 having me and you know clear skies to
00:45:20 --> 00:45:22 everyone uh johy Horner professor of
00:45:22 --> 00:45:26 astrophysics uh sitting in for Fred on
00:45:26 --> 00:45:28 space nuts at the moment and thanks to H
00:45:29 --> 00:45:30 in the studio although he couldn't be
00:45:30 --> 00:45:32 with us today because uh he's actually
00:45:32 --> 00:45:34 waiting in line for his turn to use the
00:45:34 --> 00:45:37 James webp Space Telescope and from me
00:45:37 --> 00:45:39 Andrew Dunley thanks for your company
00:45:39 --> 00:45:40 we'll catch you on the next episode of
00:45:40 --> 00:45:43 Space Nuts bye-bye Space Nuts you'll be
00:45:43 --> 00:45:46 listening to the Space Nuts
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