Cosmic Discoveries: Frame Dragging, Mars Rover Naming, and Intern Triumphs
In this holiday replay episode from the Space Nuts archives , hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson explore groundbreaking astronomical phenomena and inspiring stories from the cosmos. From the intriguing discovery of frame dragging in space-time to the triumphs of young minds in the field of astronomy, this episode is packed with fascinating insights.
Episode Highlights:
- Frame Dragging Phenomenon: Andrew and Fred delve into the recent detection of frame dragging around a white dwarf pulsar binary system, discussing its implications for general relativity and our understanding of gravity in the universe.
- Naming the Next Mars Rover: The hosts share the story behind the naming of the Mars 2020 rover, "Perseverance," chosen by a young student, highlighting the importance of perseverance in scientific exploration.
- Young Intern's Discovery: A remarkable tale of a 17-year-old intern at NASA, who discovered a new planet just three days into his internship, showcasing the potential of the next generation in astronomy.
- Listener Questions: The episode wraps up with insightful listener questions about black holes and the mysterious nature of singularities, prompting deep discussions on the complexities of the universe.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/30833021?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Space Nuts is taking a bit of a break at
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 the moment. Uh Fred and I will be back
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 uh in the not too distant future with
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 fresh episodes. In the meantime, enjoy
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 some of uh the key episodes that we have
00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 presented over the years. Major events
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 in astronomy and space science and we'll
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 see you real soon.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:24 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
00:00:24 --> 00:00:25 ignition sequence start.
00:00:25 --> 00:00:29 >> Space nets. 5 4 3 2
00:00:29 --> 00:00:31 >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:00:31 --> 00:00:32 >> Space Nuts.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 >> Astronauts Report. It feels good.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 >> Hello once again and thank you for
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 joining us on this edition of the Space
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 Nuts podcast and my name's Andrew
00:00:43 --> 00:00:44 Duckley, your host. And with me for
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 episode 193 is astronomer in charge,
00:00:48 --> 00:00:52 Professor Fred Watson. Hello Fred.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:53 >> Hello Andrew. I did used to be the
00:00:53 --> 00:00:55 astronomer in charge. That was my
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 >> I thought I said astronomer at large.
00:00:57 --> 00:00:58 >> Well, it's quite all right. No, it's
00:00:58 --> 00:01:00 Freudian Freudian slip.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 >> It's And of course, um uh that's why I
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 became the astronomer at large because
00:01:05 --> 00:01:06 you only had to change four letters on
00:01:06 --> 00:01:08 the office door to make it come numb to
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 you.
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 >> Yes. Yes. Um the organ and and that sort
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 of harps on something we talked about a
00:01:14 --> 00:01:16 while ago where your organization has
00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 changed names about two or three times,
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 but didn't change the lettering. So,
00:01:21 --> 00:01:22 didn't change the logo.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:27 >> Exactly. same logo since 1991.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 >> Okay, that's I think that's amazing. Oh
00:01:29 --> 00:01:32 dear. Very good. Now, um Fred, have you
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 got enough toilet paper at your place?
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 Is my big question.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 >> Well, it's very kind of you to ask. Um
00:01:39 --> 00:01:41 we haven't yet started tearing pages up
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 the Astrophysical Journal to use in the
00:01:43 --> 00:01:44 bathroom.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:45 >> Did you Did you hear about the Northern
00:01:45 --> 00:01:47 Territory News, uh the newspaper in
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 Darwin? They they published an they
00:01:51 --> 00:01:52 published an addition last week with
00:01:52 --> 00:01:58 several blank pages for people.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 >> This whole thing is just insanity at the
00:02:01 --> 00:02:03 highest level. There's so many people
00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 panicking over nothing. It's
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 >> you might want to explain
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 >> You might want to explain the toilet
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 paper issue though. I think most people
00:02:11 --> 00:02:12 are aware, but if you're not aware, I
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 don't know where you've been, but uh
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16 there's been a panic buy up of toilet
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 paper in Australia and there all the
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 supermarket shelves are empty. Every
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 supermarket where I live has got no
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 toilet paper because people have been
00:02:24 --> 00:02:27 panic buying because the prime minister
00:02:27 --> 00:02:28 said, "Stock up because you might have
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 to be isolated for a couple of weeks
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 because of the Corona virus." And
00:02:32 --> 00:02:33 everyone's freaking out about it. Well,
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 not everyone. I mean, we don't care, but
00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 a lot of people are freaking out about
00:02:37 --> 00:02:40 it. But I I I'm going to bring some
00:02:40 --> 00:02:41 astronomy into this, Fred.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:43 >> Oh, good. I wondered where it was going.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:47 >> I think this is the 2020 version of a
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 caveman seeing an eclipse and thinking
00:02:49 --> 00:02:51 the world's going to end.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:52 >> Oh, probably.
00:02:52 --> 00:02:53 >> That's what this is.
00:02:53 --> 00:02:54 >> Yeah.
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 >> So, I think people need to take a long
00:02:57 --> 00:02:58 hard look at themselves and give
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 themselves an uppercut, to use an
00:03:00 --> 00:03:02 Australian term, and just get on with
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 it. This is this is this is ridiculous.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:08 Totally ridiculous. the the the the good
00:03:08 --> 00:03:12 news is that um people those particular
00:03:12 --> 00:03:13 people will you know they'll never need
00:03:13 --> 00:03:15 to go and buy another toilet roll again.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 Not for eternity.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 >> They'll get like they'll get buried with
00:03:20 --> 00:03:21 the stuff.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:21 >> Yeah, that's right.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 >> I I'm suggesting that if they're going
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 to, you know, panic buy toilet paper,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 get some baked beans and some long life
00:03:26 --> 00:03:28 milk so that when you eat it, it will
00:03:28 --> 00:03:32 taste a bit better.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 >> Now, let's get down to business. Today
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 on Space Nuts, we're going to look at
00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 something that scientists have
00:03:37 --> 00:03:39 discovered for the first time, and that
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 is that spaceime is dragging. Not
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 everywhere, but they've found that it is
00:03:44 --> 00:03:45 dragging in one particular place, which
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 sounds unusual. And what does what does
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 dragging actually mean? Uh we're also
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 going to look at a couple of uh clever
00:03:52 --> 00:03:56 students um uh in terms of a name for
00:03:56 --> 00:03:58 the next Martian rover. This follows on
00:03:58 --> 00:04:00 from Sojourer, which I think is a great
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 name. Spirit, opportunity, curiosity.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 So, what are they calling the next one?
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 We will tell you. And a 17-year-old
00:04:07 --> 00:04:11 intern at NASA, day three on the job,
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 has found a planet six times uh or
00:04:13 --> 00:04:16 nearly seven times larger than Earth. I
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 mean, how lucky is that? Uh those are
00:04:19 --> 00:04:20 some of the things we'll look at today
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 on Space Nuts with Fred Watson. Let's uh
00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 start off, Fred, with um the fact that
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 spaceime is dragging. What What is it
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 dragging and why?
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 uh it it's a phenomenon to do with the
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 theory of general relativity or rather
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 the general theory of relativity which
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 of course was produced by Albert
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 Einstein in 1915 uh not long after that
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 I think about three years later uh well
00:04:48 --> 00:04:49 let me just step back a minute that
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 theory of course says that as soon as
00:04:52 --> 00:04:55 you put matter into spaceime and
00:04:56 --> 00:04:58 spacetime is really just space but with
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 a fancy name as soon as you put matter
00:05:01 --> 00:05:02 into it because of course time is part
00:05:02 --> 00:05:04 of it as well. Um as soon as you put
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 matter into spaceime it is distorted and
00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 that distortion is what we feel as
00:05:09 --> 00:05:13 gravity. Uh and that in itself is pretty
00:05:13 --> 00:05:14 hard to get your head around that
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 spaceime bends because matter's there.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 But it was about uh I think three years
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 later that two Austrian scientists
00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 uh by the name of Ysef Lenser Hans
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 Taring um they worked out that uh you
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 would get a phenomenon
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 um if you have a an a massive object
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 rotating you get a phenomenon which is
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 almost a swirling of the spacetime
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 around the object. It's called frame
00:05:47 --> 00:05:51 dragging. Um, and so as the the Earth
00:05:51 --> 00:05:54 does it, as the Earth turns, it's not
00:05:54 --> 00:05:55 only distorting the space that's hold
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 and holding us on with the the force of
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 gravity, but to a much less a much
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 lesser degree. It's also dragging the
00:06:04 --> 00:06:09 the surrounding spaceime with it. Now,
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 you're looking baffled, Andrew. It's
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 just a lack of sleep because I'm worried
00:06:13 --> 00:06:14 about where I'm going to get a roll of
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 toilet paper.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 Well, just watch out. Don't drag your
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 spacetime with it when you when you find
00:06:21 --> 00:06:27 it. Um, we usually anglicize uh uh Ysef
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 and Hans's names to the lens theorying
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 procession or lens theoring effect.
00:06:33 --> 00:06:33 >> Okay.
00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 >> Um that's um how most people speak of it
00:06:37 --> 00:06:37 even though they wouldn't have called
00:06:38 --> 00:06:42 themselves that. Uh so uh okay, it has
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 been tested this theory. It was um as I
00:06:45 --> 00:06:49 said I think it was 1918 when it was uh
00:06:49 --> 00:06:53 when it was produced. Um but the uh the
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 the first test of it was done in the
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 early 2000s. A spacecraft called Gravity
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 Probe B was launched into orbit around
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 the Earth by NASA in collaboration I
00:07:05 --> 00:07:09 think with Stanford University. Um which
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 carried on board very very sensitive
00:07:11 --> 00:07:17 gyroscopes and by using those uh the
00:07:17 --> 00:07:19 physicists running this the experiment
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 could detect the frame dragging of the
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 earth itself. So, it's all about subtle
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 motions in the in the the satellite. And
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 that tells you that yes, you have proved
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 because there's nothing else that would
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 give rise to those subtle motions.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 You've proved that frame dragging is
00:07:37 --> 00:07:41 true. Uh and but it's only been detected
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 around the earth. So, now cut to the
00:07:43 --> 00:07:47 chase. Uh because uh for the first time,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 uh it has now been detected in an
00:07:49 --> 00:07:53 astronomical object. Uh and this is a
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 really nice story because it it pulls
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 together uh you know the the the
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 fundamental physics of fa frame dragging
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 with some of the the big adventures that
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 here here in Australia we are taking
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 part in particularly in terms of radio
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 astronomy. The story goes back 20 years
00:08:10 --> 00:08:11 actually Andrew
00:08:11 --> 00:08:15 >> uh to the parks radio observatory uh in
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 New South Wales the very same state that
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 we are both in at the moment.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:23 1 hour drive from that telescope.
00:08:23 --> 00:08:24 >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You are
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 indeed. Exactly. It's just down the road
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 for you. Very very well-known uh
00:08:29 --> 00:08:30 telescope. The Big Dish it's usually
00:08:30 --> 00:08:31 called
00:08:31 --> 00:08:33 >> and very distracting when you're driving
00:08:33 --> 00:08:34 along the highway because you you just
00:08:34 --> 00:08:35 want to look at it. But
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 >> you can't stop looking at it. I know.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:39 >> Can't help myself.
00:08:39 --> 00:08:40 >> I don't have that problem because
00:08:40 --> 00:08:41 usually when I go down there, that's
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43 where I'm going.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:45 >> So, I just watch it getting bigger as
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 you get nearer to it. Um 20 years ago,
00:08:48 --> 00:08:53 uh the Parks radio telescope discovered
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 uh a a white dwarf pulsar binary system.
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 Um I'll tell you its name and then we
00:08:59 --> 00:09:01 can get that out of the way. It is
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 actually I've got to magnify the screen
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 so I can read it.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:09 >> You should now you're showing
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 >> PSRJ141US
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 6545. There you are. Put that in your
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 diary. It's that's
00:09:17 --> 00:09:18 >> it already
00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 >> as have I. It is a white dwarf pulsar
00:09:21 --> 00:09:22 binary system. What does that mean? It
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 means you got a white dwarf star which
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 is um an object the size of the earth
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 but with the mass of a star in it made
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 of electrons all crushed together or the
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 electrons are are the only thing that
00:09:34 --> 00:09:36 hold that hold the thing that stop the
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 thing from collapsing. So um that is a
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 massive object. uh around it is this
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 pulsar which is another massive object a
00:09:44 --> 00:09:46 neutron star. Uh the the two are in
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 mutual orbits and the uh the so the
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 telescope discovered that phenomenon
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 that the the binary system. So the
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 pulsar itself is beaming out radiation
00:09:59 --> 00:10:01 from its poles. Pulsars as you know
00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 because you and I have spoken about this
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 before uh effectively are extremely
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 accurate clocks. They they basically be
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 blip out radio radiation as they rotate.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 That's what the parks dish detected
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 and um that they're the precision with
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 which they do that is better than atomic
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 clocks. They they are so regular. Um the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 just as one smaller piece of information
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 in this the pulsar itself orbits the
00:10:29 --> 00:10:33 white dwarf every 4.8 hours. So it's,
00:10:33 --> 00:10:35 you know, it's a
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 >> it's whizzing round. That's right. Um,
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 now what has happened over the last 20
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 years is that astronomers have been able
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 to use this timing phenomenon,
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 the regular timing of the pulsar to
00:10:51 --> 00:10:55 measure the pulsar's position in respect
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 to the white dwarf.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 uh because essentially time accurate
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 time means accurate distance in terms of
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 uh measuring you know the where where
00:11:04 --> 00:11:07 the pulsar is and it's that measured
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 over 20 years that has demonstrated that
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 this frame dragging phenomenon is taking
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 place out there uh at PSR whatever it
00:11:16 --> 00:11:21 was uh J 1141 - 6545
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 um so what what what the scientists and
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 there's a group of scientists from many
00:11:27 --> 00:11:29 different institutions including
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 institutions in Germany. The square
00:11:31 --> 00:11:35 kilometer array organization that is uh
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 the headquarters of this great new
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 telescope that we're planning the square
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 kilometer array in western Australia and
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 in South Africa. Uh the headquarters are
00:11:44 --> 00:11:46 in Manchester uh or near Manchester at
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 the Jodro Bank radio observatory. One of
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 the scientists involved with this work
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 uh comes from that organization. Uh so
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 that means uh he is relatively closely
00:11:57 --> 00:11:59 connected with Australia because
00:11:59 --> 00:12:01 Australia is one of the host nations. uh
00:12:02 --> 00:12:03 so and and I should just mentioned that
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 the parks dish uh plus another telescope
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 called the Malonglow observatory
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 synthesis telescope again here in
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 Australia uh which has been involved
00:12:12 --> 00:12:14 with this work they are both uh
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 pathfinder telescopes for the square
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 kilometer array. So very important in in
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 you know this this large scale project
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 that is currently uh under construction
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 or uh soon will be under construction.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:30 Um that's getting in the plug for SKA
00:12:30 --> 00:12:32 but the research itself as I said
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 involves scientists from Germany,
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 Australia, New Zealand and actually
00:12:36 --> 00:12:39 Denmark too. Um and what they've done is
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 they've um looked at the way these
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 pulsar signals have changed over the 20
00:12:44 --> 00:12:48 years and they find a change in the
00:12:48 --> 00:12:52 pulsar's orbit which amounts to
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 150 kilometers. Uh and we're now talking
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 about something that's 10 light
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 years away. Andrews, being able to
00:12:59 --> 00:13:03 measure a change in orbit of 150
00:13:03 --> 00:13:05 kilometers uh at that distance is an
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 astonishing accomplishment. But it turns
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 out that that change is exactly what you
00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 would expect from frame dragging by the
00:13:14 --> 00:13:15 white dwarf itself. And that's the only
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 thing that can account for it. So it is
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 the first time that we've demonstrated
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 this swirling of space actually beyond
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 the earth uh beyond the earth's
00:13:24 --> 00:13:26 vicinity. And it's an important um you
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28 know a really important result which is
00:13:28 --> 00:13:30 rightly being celebrated all over the
00:13:30 --> 00:13:33 science media. Um astronomers detect
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 distant space-time dragging for the
00:13:35 --> 00:13:36 first time.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 >> So the the I guess the the point of this
00:13:39 --> 00:13:42 is the massive um or the mass of this
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 this event rather than you know you were
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 talking about how earth does it but
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 we're talking about something on a much
00:13:48 --> 00:13:49 larger scale.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:51 >> That's right. Yes. Well, the white dwarf
00:13:51 --> 00:13:53 itself, whilst it's probably not much
00:13:53 --> 00:13:55 bigger than the earth, it's it's its
00:13:55 --> 00:13:56 mass is much larger.
00:13:56 --> 00:13:57 >> Yeah.
00:13:57 --> 00:13:59 >> Uh and yeah, you're talking about um you
00:13:59 --> 00:14:00 know, you are talking about something
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 happening on a on a larger scale. Um I
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 confess that um I am not an expert on
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 the lens searing effect. Uh but it is
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 very interesting stuff. Uh, and when you
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 read up about it, it's quite inspiring
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 that, you know, all those years ago,
00:14:16 --> 00:14:18 these guys worked out that spaceime is
00:14:18 --> 00:14:20 being dragged around by the Earth.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 >> And if you like me and you don't want to
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 read anything about it, there's a
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 fabulous animation on the skat
00:14:27 --> 00:14:31 telescope.org website where you can see
00:14:31 --> 00:14:33 um, in about 1 minute and 20 seconds
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 what they've learned over 20 years. It
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 shows you how the uh, effect works. It's
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 very, very good. I might give a I might
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 give a call out to the the person who
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 put that uh animation together, Mark
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 Meyers, who's at Swinburn University, uh
00:14:47 --> 00:14:48 because I was in touch with him
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 yesterday. I'm using one of his um
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 graphics in a newsletter that I prepare
00:14:52 --> 00:14:55 and I asked him if that was all right.
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 He said uh he was delighted to let us
00:14:58 --> 00:15:01 use it. And uh I I absolutely agree with
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 you, Andrew. His animation, which is on
00:15:03 --> 00:15:06 that website, the skaters.org website,
00:15:06 --> 00:15:06 is terrific.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 >> Yes, indeed. All right, you're listening
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 to the Space Nuts podcast. Andrew Dunley
00:15:11 --> 00:15:16 here with Fred Watson.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:17 >> Roger, you're here also.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 >> Space Nuts.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 >> Now, Fred, uh just another shout out to
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 our patrons who support our podcast with
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 dollars and cents. We uh thank you again
00:15:27 --> 00:15:28 for doing that. If you would like to
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 become a patron or just look into the
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 possibility, uh you can go to our
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 Patreon website, patreon.com/spacenuts.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:37 All the information is there. If you
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39 would like to contribute to the program,
00:15:39 --> 00:15:43 you can set your own limit. Uh but it's
00:15:43 --> 00:15:45 not mandatory. We're not asking you to
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47 do it um as as a condition of listening
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 to the podcast. If you want to go on
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 listening to it uh as you are, that is
00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 fine, too. But uh anybody who
00:15:54 --> 00:15:56 contributes uh does get the benefit of
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 bonus content on the Patreon website. Uh
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 they also get the commercial free
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04 edition of the podcast uh ahead of time.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 So um something to consider. Anyway, um
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 now, oh, by the way, Fred, um my uh new
00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 book,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 um shameless plug coming up, uh is now
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 available for pre-order as an ebook.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 >> So, um have a look for that on the
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 Amazon website. So, um that's that's
00:16:25 --> 00:16:26 pretty exciting. I
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 >> very very pleased with how it's all
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 turned out. Uh someone actually messaged
00:16:30 --> 00:16:31 me the other day and said, "I've ordered
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34 it. Better be good."
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 Uh, you've got to remind us of the
00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 title, Andrew.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 >> It's called uh the Tyrannian Enigma. The
00:16:40 --> 00:16:42 Tyrannian Enigma. I'm starting First
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 time I wrote that down and read it out.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 My tongue tripped over it and I thought,
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 "No, this is this is too hard." But I'm
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 getting used to it now.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:50 >> Very good.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 >> I've developed a couple of signapses in
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 my brain that have got my mouth around
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 the Tyrann in No, no, I tripped over it.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 But, um, yeah, have a look for it. Uh
00:16:59 --> 00:17:02 the official release date of the ebook
00:17:02 --> 00:17:06 and the paperback will be April 15
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 and um yeah a few people have asked if I
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 could turn it into an audio book as
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 well. So I'll look into that. I I it's
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 just so time consuming to create an
00:17:16 --> 00:17:18 audio book.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:19 >> Not so much the the reading and
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 recording of but the editing. Oh my
00:17:22 --> 00:17:24 gosh, that's a nightmare. Uh having
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 >> Well, you did that for um as mud. Yeah.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:28 >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 >> Which was a World War I story about my
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 grandfather in the Great War. But that
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 that started as an audio book. So that
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 was I sort of flipped the egg on that. I
00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 did the audio book and then wrote uh
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 then made the paperback. But these last
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 two I've done the other way round or
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47 haven't done the other way around. But
00:17:47 --> 00:17:48 um I'll I'll look into it. I'll just
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 it's got to be feasible and that that
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 sort of becomes the question. But um
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 we'll see how the demand goes. But yeah,
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 have a look for it. Um Hugh tells me
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 he's going to put it on our um
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 byes.com/spacenuts
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 page, so you might be able to pre-order
00:18:05 --> 00:18:07 through there. I haven't checked. Uh
00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 now, let's get down to a couple of
00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 things involving students, Fred. These
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 are um exciting stories. I particularly
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 like this one, which involves the naming
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 of the next Mars rover. Now, we've heard
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 of Sojourer and Spirit and Opportunity
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 and Curiosity.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 uh some of which have gone above and
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 beyond the call of duty. Uh but um that
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 they aren't the last rovers. There will
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 be future rovers and u it looks like
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 some students have got involved in the
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 naming of the next one. Well, that's
00:18:38 --> 00:18:42 right. It was um uh uh you know I think
00:18:42 --> 00:18:45 this is what NASA does normally with its
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 rovers. Uh it it puts out um a
00:18:48 --> 00:18:53 competition uh to uh actually to school
00:18:53 --> 00:18:57 students uh and says suggest names for
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 our next rover. And of course the next
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 rover is what's been called until now
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 Mars 2020. Um it will be launched uh
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 July or August this year. I think it's
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 uh landing date on Mars is the 18th of
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14 February next year. So um just uh just
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 under a year away
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 >> um until now called Mars 2020. So during
00:19:19 --> 00:19:22 the closing months of last year, NA NASA
00:19:22 --> 00:19:26 put out the invitation uh to school
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28 students. I think it was uh school
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 students of all ages from kindi to year
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 12 uh and uh invited
00:19:35 --> 00:19:41 them to submit suggestions for the uh
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 for the um uh name of the of the rover
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 and they received
00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 uh two thou 28 submissions.
00:19:50 --> 00:19:51 >> I know that's amazing.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 >> It's not bad, is it? That was uh back in
00:19:54 --> 00:19:56 August at the end of August last year
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 when they put the invitation out. And uh
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 but fortunately uh it wasn't just one
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03 person who had to read all 28
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05 because these were essays uh saying why
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 it should be a particular name. They had
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 4 volunteer judges. They were
00:20:09 --> 00:20:13 educators uh professionals in the space
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 field and space enthusiasts. And they
00:20:15 --> 00:20:19 eventually got down to 155
00:20:19 --> 00:20:21 semi-finalists and then nine finalists.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 And I think I can't remember but I think
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 you and I talked about this last year.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 Yes. Because there was a list of uh of
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 very elegant they were all great names
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 actually for for a rover.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35 >> Um so and then they put that out for
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 public voting and in fact it was
00:20:38 --> 00:20:39 worldwide and there were many
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 submissions came from Australia. They
00:20:42 --> 00:20:45 received a total of 770
00:20:45 --> 00:20:49 votes. Wow. uh to to to you know to chew
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 through to work out what uh the final
00:20:51 --> 00:20:56 name should be and eventually uh they
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 got one answer and it came
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00 >> Hang on. Drum roll.
00:21:00 --> 00:21:05 >> Drum roll. Uh it it came from uh a
00:21:05 --> 00:21:09 youngster by the name of Alex Mather uh
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 who's at a school I've forgotten. I
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 think he's in Virginia. I can check that
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 in a minute. Uh but he and here's the
00:21:16 --> 00:21:17 drum roll. He was the person who
00:21:17 --> 00:21:21 suggested the name Perseverance
00:21:21 --> 00:21:22 name
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 >> of the new spacecraft.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 >> Yeah. Yeah. That is a fabulous name for
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29 it because it it does actually
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31 tell a story behind all the missions to
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 Mars over the years and all the work
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34 that's gone into it. They just, you
00:21:34 --> 00:21:37 know, all the successes and the failures
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 and the and the near misses. It is
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 perseverance that that going.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 >> That's right. Um I mean this this
00:21:44 --> 00:21:47 spacecraft as well could be uh it could
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 be the one that discovers life on Mars.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:50 >> Yes.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 >> Uh because that's what it's you know
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 what the aim is. It's um unlike
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 Curiosity whose mission was to discover
00:21:57 --> 00:21:59 whether Mars was ever habitable which it
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 did within about the first fortnite of
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 its presence on the planet. Um uh
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 Perseverance is looking for evidence of
00:22:06 --> 00:22:09 past or present life um with many
00:22:09 --> 00:22:12 different instruments that will uh will
00:22:12 --> 00:22:14 do that. Uh, and I I suspect
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 Perseverance might be the characteristic
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 that it needs more than anything else.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 It will probably be quite a long
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 mission. Uh, it's unlikely that, you
00:22:22 --> 00:22:23 know, as soon as it drops down, it's
00:22:23 --> 00:22:26 going to find evidence of
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 Martian microbes. One would expect that
00:22:28 --> 00:22:29 it might have to move around on the
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 surface a bit, but it will do that.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33 >> Yeah,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 only slightly pipped uh the number two,
00:22:36 --> 00:22:40 which was, do I have to go to Mars?
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 Yeah,
00:22:42 --> 00:22:44 >> that's the one. Yeah. Um, I'm fascinated
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 by the fact that uh they got 28
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49 submissions for the name. It reminds me
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 of an author, a children's author in Sri
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53 Lanka last week who got 20
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 submissions for the ending of her latest
00:22:55 --> 00:22:55 book.
00:22:55 --> 00:22:56 >> Okay.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 >> And they came out and and they published
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 they're going to publish it with 1
00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 endings, which is a which is a Guinness
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 World Record. And I I think those sorts
00:23:06 --> 00:23:08 of responses really show where you stand
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 in the world. So when I asked for a
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 title for my book, I got five.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 >> Yeah, you did. I think that's pretty
00:23:14 --> 00:23:15 good.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17 >> More than more than the number of people
00:23:17 --> 00:23:21 who read my book. Um that um that the
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 bottom line here is congratulations to
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 young Al Alexander Ma. Um he is uh a
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 year sorry a grade seven student. Now I
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 I'm guessing that that means he's about
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33 13. Yeah.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:37 >> Uh or thereabouts. Um and he's uh he put
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 in put together a really uh remarkable
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 um you know remarkable
00:23:44 --> 00:23:50 uh uh entry. Um he said some very very
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 uh very nice comments about the the
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 competition and his his uh his um entry
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 to it. He says um this is actually in
00:24:00 --> 00:24:01 the NASA press release. He says, "This
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 was a chance to help the agency that put
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 humans on the moon and will soon do it
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 again. This Mars rover will help pave
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10 the way for human presence there, and I
00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 wanted to try and help in any way I
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14 could. Refusal of the challenge was not
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 an option."
00:24:16 --> 00:24:17 >> Lovely. That is great.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:18 >> Great stuff, isn't it?
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 >> Good on him. Okay, so watch out for
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 perseverance
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 uh which should hit the Martian surface
00:24:25 --> 00:24:28 uh in a little under a year. Uh still on
00:24:28 --> 00:24:31 students doing great things. Uh this is
00:24:31 --> 00:24:32 this is a fabulous story about a
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 17-year-old who's doing an internship at
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 NASA and has found a planet on day
00:24:39 --> 00:24:40 three.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 >> Day three. That's right.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 >> It is. It's great stuff. Um so, uh this
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 is a young man called uh Wolf Cookier. I
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.
00:24:50 --> 00:24:54 Uh he scored a two-month internship with
00:24:54 --> 00:24:56 NASA. Uh so during last northern summer
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 he was at the Godard Space Flight Center
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 in Green Belt in Maryland and um what
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 what he was doing uh on day three I
00:25:04 --> 00:25:06 think he probably started off doing this
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 he was trolling through data from TESS
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 uh so TESS is a NASA spacecraft is
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15 currently operational doing a great job
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 the name is an acronym for transiting
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 exoplanet survey satellite so it's
00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 actually looking for the dimming of the
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 light of of stars as planets pass in
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 front of them. Uh and unlike Kepler
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 which only looked at a small uh area of
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 the sky to do the same job, um Kepler
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 now now effectively defunct. Uh TESS
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 actually looks at the whole sky. Uh so
00:25:41 --> 00:25:44 it's a it's a the word survey in its
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 name is very important because it
00:25:46 --> 00:25:47 actually has a chance to look at the
00:25:47 --> 00:25:51 entire sky. So he was looking through
00:25:51 --> 00:25:53 the data. Actually, there's a a nice
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 quote again from um from Wolf. He says,
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 "I was looking through the data for
00:25:58 --> 00:25:59 everything the volunteers had flagged as
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 an eclipsing binary. That means uh two
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 stars orbiting around their common
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07 center of mass, one passes in front of
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 the other as seen from the Earth. And
00:26:09 --> 00:26:11 so, you get what we call an eclipse.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:13 >> So, they're well-known stars. They've
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 been well known for for a more than a
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 century. He was looking uh through
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 everything volunteers had flagged as an
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 eclipsing binary, a system where two
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 stars circle around each other and from
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 our view eclipse each other every orbit.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:30 About 3 days into my internship, I saw a
00:26:30 --> 00:26:34 signal from a system called TOI 1338. At
00:26:34 --> 00:26:36 first, I thought it was a stellar
00:26:36 --> 00:26:39 eclipse, but the timing was wrong. It
00:26:39 --> 00:26:41 turned out to be a planet. uh I noticed
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 a dip or a transit from the TOI 1338
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 system and that was the first signal of
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48 the planet. First saw the initial dip
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51 and thought oh that looked cool but when
00:26:51 --> 00:26:52 I then when I looked at the full data
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 from the telescope at that star I and my
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 mentor also noticed three different dips
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 in the system. So great stuff and very
00:27:00 --> 00:27:01 well very well spotted
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 >> and it's a big one too in
00:27:04 --> 00:27:05 >> Yeah, that's right.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:05 >> planets I suppose
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 >> it's it's between the um you know it's
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 somewhere between the size of Neptune
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 and Saturn uh rather larger than Uranus
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 about seven times larger than the Earth.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 It's in the constellation of Pictor and
00:27:19 --> 00:27:23 it's about 1300 light years away. Um the
00:27:23 --> 00:27:25 >> Is it a gas giant or a rocky planet?
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27 >> Probably. Probably a gas giant.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:32 >> Yeah. the the the name uh TOI
00:27:32 --> 00:27:37 1338. TOUI is an acronym for TESS object
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 of interest. Uh and uh it's um it's one
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 that's floating around a lot these days
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 with the with a number attached to it.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:46 So of course um because of the
00:27:46 --> 00:27:50 convention uh that planet that Wolf has
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 discovered is now called TOI 1338b
00:27:53 --> 00:27:56 because the B signifies it is the first
00:27:56 --> 00:27:58 discovered planet around the star.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:00 >> Excellent. All right.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01 >> Great stuff.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:02 >> Yeah, good good stuff with involving
00:28:02 --> 00:28:05 students um doing wonderful things.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:07 You're listening to Space Nuts with
00:28:07 --> 00:28:12 Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14 G and I feel fine.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:15 >> Space nuts.
00:28:15 --> 00:28:17 >> And a big hello to all our social media
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 followers that um contribute via our
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 Facebook page. If you're not following
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 us on Facebook, uh maybe have a look if
00:28:24 --> 00:28:26 you're a Facebook user, of course. Uh
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 you can also join the Space Nuts podcast
00:28:29 --> 00:28:30 group on Facebook. That's a chance for
00:28:30 --> 00:28:32 you to talk to each other and help each
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 other out with astronomy questions. And
00:28:34 --> 00:28:36 it's going gang busters. people are
00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 really uh enjoying finding each other
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 and um that you know the similarity and
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 interest is is rather fascinating. So uh
00:28:44 --> 00:28:46 I occasionally poke my head in there,
00:28:46 --> 00:28:48 but it's it's actually for you the Space
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 Nuts podcast group. So uh you might want
00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 to take advantage of that. Uh and of
00:28:52 --> 00:28:54 course YouTube uh the numbers continue
00:28:54 --> 00:28:55 to grow. So if you'd like to subscribe
00:28:55 --> 00:28:59 to the Space Nuts YouTube channel, you
00:28:59 --> 00:29:03 can do that, too. Now, uh Fred, we have
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 a couple of questions. I didn't uh
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 preview these because I forgot. But uh
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 we we are going to tackle a couple of
00:29:08 --> 00:29:09 questions and then we're going to do um
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 a little bit of homework or go back to
00:29:11 --> 00:29:12 something we talked about a couple of
00:29:12 --> 00:29:15 weeks ago just to finish it off which
00:29:15 --> 00:29:16 was the ro limit which which actually
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 came about as a result of a question.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20 But our first question today comes from
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 Andrew Mitchell. I think Andrew's been
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 in touch with us before. Dear Fred and
00:29:24 --> 00:29:26 Andrew, all this recent talk about black
00:29:26 --> 00:29:29 holes has been fascinating and the last
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 installment got me thinking. According
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 to Einstein's equations, black holes are
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 supposed to have uh infin uh supposed to
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 be infinitely small, infinitely dense
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 singularities at their center. If that's
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 the case, then how do uh two actually
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 merge into one black hole? Shouldn't
00:29:46 --> 00:29:48 they just keep orbiting each other
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50 getting closer forever? Or is the fact
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 that black holes do merge actually
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 evidence that singularities have size?
00:29:55 --> 00:29:57 Perhaps a sphere with a diameter of one
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 plank length. Uh, your regular plugs on
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 YouTube channel have been paying off. I
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 just became subscriber number 993, so it
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 would, you know, we're a bit overdue
00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 getting your question done. Andrew,
00:30:08 --> 00:30:09 thanks for joining us on YouTube,
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 though. Still loving the show. Um,
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 please keep up the mind-blowing stories.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17 Thank you, Andrew. Um, black holes. Gee,
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 we don't talk about them very often. Um
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 but yeah, it's an interesting question
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 because we talk about how the the black
00:30:25 --> 00:30:28 hole itself is quite small when you
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 compare it to the event horizon or the
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 or the you know what's going on around
00:30:32 --> 00:30:35 it. Um but yeah,
00:30:35 --> 00:30:37 two merging black holes, do they
00:30:37 --> 00:30:42 actually merge and how is it? So
00:30:42 --> 00:30:46 it's a really good question. Um, it's
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 uh,
00:30:48 --> 00:30:52 you know, the the the whole black hole
00:30:52 --> 00:30:54 thing is hard to get your head around.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:54 >> Yeah.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 >> Whether you're a physicist or an
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 astronomer or somebody fighting over
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 toilet rolls in the in the aisle of the
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 suit involves a black hole, too, doesn't
00:31:03 --> 00:31:03 it?
00:31:04 --> 00:31:05 >> I'm sure it does. Yeah. There there they
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 are very very hard uh objects to
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 understand. Uh, and Andrew's question is
00:31:11 --> 00:31:15 is really well made. Um, how do two
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 black holes merge into one? Um, I I
00:31:19 --> 00:31:24 don't think there is any need for them
00:31:24 --> 00:31:27 to keep orbiting around each other if
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 they are of infinitely small size. But I
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 do get his point that if you've got
00:31:32 --> 00:31:34 something that's infinitely small uh and
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36 you put something else that's infinitely
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 small next to it, they're never going to
00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 they're never going to touch because
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 they're uh because the dimensions are
00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 infinitely small. But in fact, as as
00:31:45 --> 00:31:47 Andrew says, they do merge. We have
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 evidence of that uh from the
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52 gravitational wave observations that
00:31:52 --> 00:31:54 have been made um over the past two
00:31:54 --> 00:31:59 three years. Um and there is uh there is
00:31:59 --> 00:32:02 this phenomenon um called the ringdown
00:32:02 --> 00:32:05 which is the the sort of aftermath of
00:32:05 --> 00:32:06 the merging. Now I don't know enough
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 about black hole physics to understand
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 specifically what the mechanism of the
00:32:12 --> 00:32:14 ring down is but I suspect that is where
00:32:14 --> 00:32:17 the evidence comes that you actually
00:32:17 --> 00:32:20 have now merged black holes. In fact, we
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 know we know the evidence is there um
00:32:23 --> 00:32:25 because you wind up with a black hole
00:32:25 --> 00:32:29 whose mass is actually usually slightly
00:32:29 --> 00:32:30 less than the sum of the masses of the
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32 two black holes that have merged and the
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 and the excess has gone into creating
00:32:35 --> 00:32:37 the gravitational waves. It's mass into
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 energy. Uh but um Andrew goes on to make
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 an interesting point. He says, "Or do
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 the sing or is the fact that black holes
00:32:46 --> 00:32:47 do merge actually evidence that
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 singularities have a size? Perhaps a
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 sphere with a diameter of one plank
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 length."
00:32:54 --> 00:32:57 >> Now, um, introducing the plank length is
00:32:57 --> 00:33:00 a really neat way of sidest stepping the
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 idea of an infinite decimately small
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 object because the the plank length is
00:33:06 --> 00:33:10 defined as being the smallest distance
00:33:10 --> 00:33:13 and it is got a It does have a proper
00:33:13 --> 00:33:14 physical definition. In fact, it's
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17 actually the distance that light travels
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20 in one unit of plank time. Uh so that
00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 raises the question, well, what's plank
00:33:22 --> 00:33:25 time? Um let me just summarize though,
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 and this is coming directly off
00:33:27 --> 00:33:29 Wikipedia. The plank length can be
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 defined uh sorry uh from yeah, let me
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 read it. The plank length can be defined
00:33:34 --> 00:33:35 from three fundamental physical
00:33:35 --> 00:33:37 constants. the speed of light in a
00:33:37 --> 00:33:39 vacuum, the plank constant, that's
00:33:39 --> 00:33:41 something um which physicists are very
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 familiar with, and the gravitational
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46 constant. It's the smallest distance
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 about which current experimentally
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 corroborated models of physics can make
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 meaningful statements. So what it says
00:33:56 --> 00:33:58 is and I'll go on at such small
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00 distances the conventional laws of macro
00:34:00 --> 00:34:03 physics no longer apply and even
00:34:03 --> 00:34:05 relativistic physics require special
00:34:05 --> 00:34:07 treatment and the bottom line is that a
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09 plank length below that all bets are
00:34:09 --> 00:34:10 off. Okay,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:12 >> we really don't understand what is
00:34:12 --> 00:34:14 happening to the physics and maybe
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16 Andrew's point is well made that uh you
00:34:16 --> 00:34:20 know a plank length black hole is
00:34:20 --> 00:34:23 actually what you have at the center of
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 or constituting a black hole system. Um
00:34:26 --> 00:34:29 I need to talk to my uh expert friends
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32 about this because um at this level of
00:34:32 --> 00:34:35 technicality uh my knowledge is not
00:34:35 --> 00:34:38 specialist but I do know people whose
00:34:38 --> 00:34:41 knowledge is far better than mine and
00:34:41 --> 00:34:43 next time I run into them uh I'm going
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 to ask them exactly about these
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 questions and hopefully feedback to
00:34:47 --> 00:34:50 Space Nuts and to Andrew and his fellow
00:34:50 --> 00:34:51 listeners.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 >> Okay. So the question remains open,
00:34:53 --> 00:34:54 Andrew, but
00:34:54 --> 00:34:56 >> yeah, I think we'll give you a definite
00:34:56 --> 00:34:58 maybe.
00:34:58 --> 00:34:59 >> Maybe.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00 >> Yes. All right. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks
00:35:00 --> 00:35:02 for the question. Let's move on to a
00:35:02 --> 00:35:04 question from Alf Peterson in Sweden.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:07 Yeah. Uh Alf, I've got some news from
00:35:07 --> 00:35:08 you which you may or may not be aware
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 of, but uh a young lady named Julia
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13 Angstrom, a professional golfer from
00:35:13 --> 00:35:17 Sweden, just won the New South Wales
00:35:17 --> 00:35:19 Women's Open, which we hosted here in DO
00:35:19 --> 00:35:20 a couple of weeks ago.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:23 >> Great. I because our course was closed
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 to play for members, we um we uh we we
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 got to go out there and watch these
00:35:27 --> 00:35:28 young ladies go around. It was a
00:35:28 --> 00:35:31 European tour event. Uh she won not only
00:35:31 --> 00:35:33 her share of the prize money, but a
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 2-year exemption on the European tour.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:38 She's 18 years old and she swings it
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40 like a champion. I mean, she was hitting
00:35:40 --> 00:35:44 at 260 to 280 m, whailing it past me,
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 and she's just a slip of a kid, but uh
00:35:47 --> 00:35:49 remarkable player and someone to watch
00:35:49 --> 00:35:50 out for in the future if you're a
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52 golfer. Julia Angstrom is her name. So,
00:35:52 --> 00:35:54 there you go, Al. A little bit of I can
00:35:54 --> 00:35:58 feel his pride swelling now. Um, now he
00:35:58 --> 00:36:00 says, "Hello, Andrew and Fred. What a
00:36:00 --> 00:36:02 fantastic community you've started, and
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04 it's a global one, too. I've been a
00:36:04 --> 00:36:06 faithful listener of your pods now for a
00:36:06 --> 00:36:07 year and enjoy them very much. Never
00:36:07 --> 00:36:09 imagined Thursdays could be that
00:36:09 --> 00:36:11 exciting. I'd usually say something
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13 derogatory, but I'm feeling good today.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:16 Uh, don't know if this question might be
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 of interest to the show. Is there any
00:36:18 --> 00:36:19 chance that a It's a black hole
00:36:19 --> 00:36:21 question, by the way, Fred. Is there any
00:36:21 --> 00:36:23 chance that a black hole might not exist
00:36:23 --> 00:36:26 in its uh inside its event horizon?
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28 After all, black holes are claimed to be
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 singularities, i.e. infantessimal in
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 size. In practical terms, nothing,
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 right? Uh, if so, could an event horizon
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38 act as a sort of a delayed postal
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41 service, never informing anyone outside
00:36:41 --> 00:36:44 what has happened? Like Australia Post,
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 really? Um, no, they're great. Actually,
00:36:47 --> 00:36:49 uh, there's another piece of news. Do
00:36:49 --> 00:36:52 Post Office here in town got Post Office
00:36:52 --> 00:36:53 of the Year.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 >> Oh, fabulous. That's great news.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:57 >> About a month ago, so we're doing all
00:36:58 --> 00:36:58 right here, aren't we?
00:36:58 --> 00:37:00 >> Yeah, you're doing well in double.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:02 >> Back to questions. Would physics allow
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05 matter still to be pulled into the vent
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 event uh into the horizon even if the
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10 black hole was gone?
00:37:10 --> 00:37:14 Uh great question, Ol. And um in in a
00:37:14 --> 00:37:17 sense the um the he's right about the
00:37:17 --> 00:37:20 event horizon acting as a delayed postal
00:37:20 --> 00:37:22 service because
00:37:22 --> 00:37:25 um it it it stops the transfer of
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27 information. We do know that uh black
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29 holes can evaporate courtesy of of
00:37:29 --> 00:37:33 Hawking radiation but uh basically and
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35 and that involves the transfer of
00:37:35 --> 00:37:36 information. We know that but it's very
00:37:36 --> 00:37:40 very slow. So the the the event horizon
00:37:40 --> 00:37:42 does shield the black hole from the
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 outside world if I can put it that way.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:48 But um in terms of whether the black
00:37:48 --> 00:37:50 hole itself exists, it it's kind of the
00:37:50 --> 00:37:53 other way around. The only way the event
00:37:53 --> 00:37:55 horizon can exist is is if there is a
00:37:55 --> 00:37:58 black hole at the center. Uh in other
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 words, this infinite decimally small
00:38:00 --> 00:38:01 singularity
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 essentially distorting spaceime to the
00:38:04 --> 00:38:06 extent that you've got this shield
00:38:06 --> 00:38:07 around it. This black hole the black
00:38:07 --> 00:38:10 hole uh sorry the the black hole event
00:38:10 --> 00:38:13 horizon. The event horizon in some ways
00:38:13 --> 00:38:15 is an illusion, Andrew, because it's um
00:38:16 --> 00:38:18 it's just the point of no return. It's
00:38:18 --> 00:38:20 the the thing that won't let light out.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:22 And it certainly is black. We've seen
00:38:22 --> 00:38:25 that from the the event horizon image uh
00:38:25 --> 00:38:28 that was released last year. But uh
00:38:28 --> 00:38:29 without the black hole, the event
00:38:29 --> 00:38:33 horizon doesn't exist. So uh it it has
00:38:33 --> 00:38:35 to there has to be this singularity at
00:38:35 --> 00:38:38 the middle with all its complicated uh
00:38:38 --> 00:38:41 infiniteesimally small planklength
00:38:41 --> 00:38:42 dimensions that we've just been discover
00:38:42 --> 00:38:45 discussing. Um yeah, great question
00:38:45 --> 00:38:47 though and thank you very much. And yes,
00:38:47 --> 00:38:49 Sweden rocks. I was there not very long
00:38:49 --> 00:38:49 ago.
00:38:49 --> 00:38:51 >> And as Montipython says, nothing can
00:38:51 --> 00:38:53 come from nothing.
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 >> Can't be nothing.
00:38:55 --> 00:38:57 >> Yes. Yes.
00:38:57 --> 00:38:59 >> Thanks, Al. Appreciate the question. Uh,
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01 one more thing before we finish up,
00:39:01 --> 00:39:03 Fred, and this is um a little bit of um
00:39:03 --> 00:39:05 an add-on from a question about the Ro
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07 limit. A couple of weeks ago, we were
00:39:07 --> 00:39:08 trying to figure out
00:39:08 --> 00:39:11 >> the Ro limit between the Earth and the
00:39:11 --> 00:39:13 Moon. And as you explained, the ro limit
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15 is the point where uh gravity will
00:39:16 --> 00:39:19 destroy one of the objects involved in
00:39:19 --> 00:39:23 the um uh in the uh situation. So um you
00:39:23 --> 00:39:24 could probably explain it better than I
00:39:24 --> 00:39:27 just did, but um uh basically we were
00:39:27 --> 00:39:29 trying to figure out how close the moon
00:39:29 --> 00:39:31 could get to the earth before it was
00:39:31 --> 00:39:32 obliterated.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:33 >> Yeah. And you know, life on Earth would
00:39:33 --> 00:39:35 probably be obliterated, too.
00:39:35 --> 00:39:37 >> Well, that's right. It would be a tricky
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39 situation for all of us, but it is. It's
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41 much less than I thought it would be,
00:39:41 --> 00:39:43 Andrew. It's um the ro limit for the
00:39:44 --> 00:39:46 moon is 9
00:39:46 --> 00:39:48 km, and I think that's from the center
00:39:48 --> 00:39:51 of the Earth. So, it's actually 3,14
00:39:51 --> 00:39:54 uh 1114 kilometers above the surface.
00:39:54 --> 00:39:56 Imagine the moon 3 km above the
00:39:56 --> 00:39:57 surface. Whoa.
00:39:57 --> 00:39:59 >> Wouldn't it look amazing?
00:39:59 --> 00:40:00 >> It would look pretty amazing. That's
00:40:00 --> 00:40:00 right.
00:40:00 --> 00:40:03 >> Just for a few moments until we all die
00:40:03 --> 00:40:06 far away. Die. Yes, that's right.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:06 >> Yeah.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:08 >> But that's okay. But we'd have plenty of
00:40:08 --> 00:40:09 toilet paper.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:10 >> No, we would. We'd be all right.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:15 >> Yes. So, three So, 9
00:40:15 --> 00:40:17 >> Yeah. 9
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19 kilometers from the center of the Earth.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21 >> Close as it could get before it was
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23 destroyed by our gravity and we would go
00:40:23 --> 00:40:25 down with the ship.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:26 >> Absolutely.
00:40:26 --> 00:40:28 >> Yeah. In a nutshell. All right. Now,
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29 we've got that sorted out. Uh, thank
00:40:30 --> 00:40:31 you, Fred, so much. It's always a
00:40:31 --> 00:40:32 pleasure.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:34 >> It's always a pleasure talking to you,
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36 too, Andrew. And we'll speak again soon.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:38 We will indeed. And and thank you for uh
00:40:38 --> 00:40:39 listening. Thank you for your
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41 contributions. Keep them coming. We love
00:40:41 --> 00:40:42 to hear from you, whether it's on social
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44 media or via our website where you can
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 send us emails. Uh we have a little
00:40:47 --> 00:40:48 contact form there so you can send us
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51 questions. And uh to the patrons,
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53 there'll be some bonus material coming
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 up real soon. Uh other than that, thank
00:40:56 --> 00:40:58 you and we'll see you again next time on
00:40:58 --> 00:41:00 another edition of the Space Nuts
00:41:00 --> 00:41:01 podcast.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:03 >> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the
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