00:00:00 --> 00:00:01 Hello again. Thanks for joining us on
00:00:01 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts. This is a Q&A edition. My
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 name is Andrew Dunley. What's a Q&A
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 edition? It's an edition where we get
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 Q's and give you A's because you're so
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 clever. Uh, something like that. Anyway,
00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 we're going to answer audience
00:00:15 --> 00:00:16 questions. That's what I'm getting at.
00:00:16 --> 00:00:18 We've got questions about Red Shift. We
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 got questions about dark photons. What?
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 Uh, we've got questions about deep space
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 astronomy. And another one about the
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 expansion of the universe. So, I think
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 we talked about that last episode.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:31 Anyway, uh we'll see if we can solve all
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 of that on this episode of Space Nuts.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:39 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 Ignition sequence start.
00:00:41 --> 00:00:42 >> Space Nuts.
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 >> 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 >> Space Nuts.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:55 And with us again to kind of try to
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 maybe answer some of that is Professor
00:00:57 --> 00:00:59 Fred Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,
00:00:59 --> 00:00:59 Fred.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 >> Hello, Andrew. Um, kind of is probably
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 the best description really, isn't it?
00:01:04 --> 00:01:05 [laughter]
00:01:05 --> 00:01:09 >> Possibly. So, possibly so. Um, but you
00:01:09 --> 00:01:10 know, it's good to get questions. We've
00:01:10 --> 00:01:13 got a whole new batch. So, um, let's get
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 stuck straight into it. Our first
00:01:15 --> 00:01:18 question comes from, um, uh, I I love
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 the way he always ends his questions.
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 I'm not going to reveal anything, but um
00:01:23 --> 00:01:24 let's hear from Roger.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 >> Hey there, space nuts. This is Roger the
00:01:27 --> 00:01:31 truck driver. Tonight I'm in uh Rutland,
00:01:31 --> 00:01:32 Vermont.
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 Got a question about the red shift of
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 galaxies.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 Um if the light that we're seeing from a
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 far off galaxy is shifted to the red and
00:01:41 --> 00:01:44 it started out at a higher frequency,
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 doesn't that mean energy's lost
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 somewhere between here and there? And is
00:01:49 --> 00:01:52 that energy just transferred into space?
00:01:52 --> 00:01:54 And if it is, does that contribute to
00:01:54 --> 00:01:56 the expansion of space? And I'm not
00:01:56 --> 00:01:59 saying it's dark energy, but it is does
00:01:59 --> 00:02:03 it contribute to it or does that energy
00:02:03 --> 00:02:06 get dissipated in another way? All
00:02:06 --> 00:02:08 right. Always digging the show. You guys
00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 keep on trucking.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:13 [laughter] I love that. I love that. Uh
00:02:13 --> 00:02:15 we got train drivers that do that.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 Unfortunately, they do it at 3:00 in the
00:02:17 --> 00:02:18 morning. [gasps]
00:02:18 --> 00:02:21 Although today he did it at 10 to 7, I
00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 was pretty annoyed. Pretty annoyed.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:25 >> This is uh the one going past your
00:02:25 --> 00:02:25 place.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 >> Yeah, behind our place there's a rail
00:02:27 --> 00:02:28 line. It doesn't get used a heck of a
00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 lot, but when it does, um yes, the the
00:02:31 --> 00:02:33 glasses rattle. Uh the ones on my face,
00:02:34 --> 00:02:35 I mean. Uh thanks, Roger. Great
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 question. Uh so um yeah the change in
00:02:39 --> 00:02:44 frequency with the um energy loss um
00:02:44 --> 00:02:46 where does the energy go and does it
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 contribute to the expansion of the
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 universe and could it possibly be maybe
00:02:51 --> 00:02:55 maybe not dark matter or dark energy
00:02:56 --> 00:02:56 >> or something.
00:02:56 --> 00:02:57 >> Yeah.
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 >> Yeah. Um there's a lot he packed a lot
00:02:59 --> 00:03:00 into that question.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:02 >> He did and it's a great question too. Uh
00:03:02 --> 00:03:06 and you know I mean it's a um project is
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 absolutely right the conservation of
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 energy uh energy can't be created or
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 destroyed. That's the the fundamental
00:03:13 --> 00:03:18 rule. Uh it's energy is always conserved
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 [snorts] but
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 uh the universe doesn't play by the
00:03:22 --> 00:03:24 ordinary rules.
00:03:24 --> 00:03:30 Uh and um it it's a it's an interesting
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 answer here. Um and and I have to say
00:03:33 --> 00:03:37 it's changed my view of what this you
00:03:37 --> 00:03:38 know what the answer to this problem
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 was.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:39 >> Okay.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 >> Uh because um when we've been asked this
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 before been asked it for a long time I
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 just assumed that the energy uh
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 basically was absorbed by the universe
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 by spacetime
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 uh and maybe contributed to the
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 expansion. Although there's it's a it's
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 a you can't have it both ways because
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 it's the expansion that's causing the
00:04:04 --> 00:04:08 the photon's energy to be to be lost. Uh
00:04:08 --> 00:04:11 and and just stepping back exactly as
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 Roger said, uh you've got light going
00:04:13 --> 00:04:17 through the universe. It's uh the its
00:04:17 --> 00:04:18 wavelength is being stretched by the
00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 expansion of the universe. Therefore,
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 the light is losing energy because the
00:04:24 --> 00:04:26 energy of a beam of light is all about
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 the frequency of the light. In other
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 words, or the wavelength, putting it
00:04:30 --> 00:04:31 another way.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 >> So, if you increase the wavelength, you
00:04:34 --> 00:04:38 lose energy and that's that's um a given
00:04:38 --> 00:04:41 already. Uh so, what I used to say was
00:04:41 --> 00:04:43 yes, it kind of goes into the universe,
00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 but um I've done a bit more reading on
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 this and I was wrong. Oh.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:48 [sighs and gasps]
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 Um because
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 when you apply general relativity to the
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 universe as a whole and that's the as
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 we've talked about and we talked about
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 it at length in the last episode it's uh
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 the the kind of fundamental rule that
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 governs everything that we understand in
00:05:06 --> 00:05:10 the universe. Um when you apply general
00:05:10 --> 00:05:11 relativity
00:05:12 --> 00:05:18 uh that conservation of energy that we
00:05:18 --> 00:05:21 expect to happen in the everyday world
00:05:21 --> 00:05:25 uh it doesn't hold good. So uh energy is
00:05:25 --> 00:05:28 not conserved in an expanding universe.
00:05:28 --> 00:05:29 >> Oh
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 >> uh and so basically the energy simply
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 disappears.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 It's just not there anymore because of
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 the expansion of the universe. It's not
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 causing the expansion of the universe.
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 It's not create contributing to dark
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 energy or dark matter, the energy loss.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 It just vanishes.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 >> Wow.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:51 >> So, work that one out.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 >> I can't. [snorts]
00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 >> No, I can't either. [laughter]
00:05:55 --> 00:05:59 >> Uh it's um it's I I kind of really need
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 to look at the equations on this.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:05 >> Um you don't show them to me. I mean,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 I'm yeah I'm not that keen on looking at
00:06:08 --> 00:06:09 them myself either got too much else to
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 do but uh but um uh but that's yes that
00:06:14 --> 00:06:18 is the thinking on this uh and I think
00:06:18 --> 00:06:22 the conservation rule does not work uh
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 when it comes to
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 um when it comes to consu to to to the
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 universe on a whole.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 >> Yeah. Wow. Gee, that's um that's quite a
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 revelation. And who who figured that
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 out?
00:06:37 --> 00:06:38 >> Uh [sighs]
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 uh it's on a number of uh different
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 physics uh related.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 >> There's there there's the reason no one
00:06:45 --> 00:06:48 knows about it cuz it's physics and
00:06:48 --> 00:06:48 [laughter]
00:06:48 --> 00:06:51 who reads that stuff?
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 >> Yeah. I think I think the relativistic
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 bit of it
00:06:55 --> 00:06:59 >> uh comes from the fact that the energy
00:06:59 --> 00:07:00 of a particle which is what we're
00:07:00 --> 00:07:04 talking about it's an observer dependent
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 quantity and so that's why relativity
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 plays a part in this because you're the
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 observer and and you're talking about
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 something that's relative to another
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 observer i.e. the photon.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 >> Yeah. Uh, and that's why you've got, you
00:07:19 --> 00:07:22 know, a relivist a relativistic uh,
00:07:22 --> 00:07:24 access to it.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 >> Wow. Okay. Um, great question, Roger.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 I'm not sure you were expecting that
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 answer, but uh, there it is. Uh, the
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 energy just
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 gone,
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 goes, vanishes, ceases to exist. It's a
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 dead poly.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 So
00:07:43 --> 00:07:47 anyway, um, no one got that joke. I was,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 um, I was doing a Montipython skit for
00:07:50 --> 00:07:50 some reason.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 >> Yeah. Yeah, you were. That's right. I'm
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 I'm Look, I'm pursuing this in a little
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 bit more detail and, uh, and just trying
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 to, you know, see whether we've got
00:07:59 --> 00:08:03 alternative alternative views of this.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:04 >> Generally speaking, you do get
00:08:04 --> 00:08:06 alternative views when it comes to this
00:08:06 --> 00:08:06 kind.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 >> That's right.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:15 >> Um, yes. So, so the the that's right. Uh
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 I think I think the the standard
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 explanation today is that energy is not
00:08:20 --> 00:08:23 is not conserved. Okay, we'll leave it
00:08:23 --> 00:08:25 at that until somebody throws another
00:08:25 --> 00:08:26 spanner into the
00:08:26 --> 00:08:27 >> Yeah, we might be giving a different
00:08:27 --> 00:08:28 answer next week.
00:08:28 --> 00:08:30 >> It could be. [laughter] Thanks, Roger.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 Great to hear from you. Toot toot. Uh
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 we'll catch you next time. Our next
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 question comes from Peter. He's from San
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40 Diego, California. While listening to
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 another astrophysics podcast, I heard
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 the term dark photon for the first time.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:47 Apparently, this is a particle
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 astrophysicists are seeking in order to
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 explain dark matter and/or dark energy.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 Could you please elaborate on what a
00:08:54 --> 00:08:58 dark photon could be? Um, dad joke for
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 Andrew. A photon travels at the speed of
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 light. Does that mean a dark photon
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 travels at the speed of dark?
00:09:06 --> 00:09:06 >> [laughter]
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 >> I like that. That's good.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:10 >> That's really good. Keep up the great
00:09:10 --> 00:09:12 work, he says. Uh, thank you, Peter.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 Hope all is well in San Diego,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:16 California.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:17 >> Uh, have you ever heard of a dark
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 photon, Fred? Um, yes. I've probably got
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 a few in this box here. [laughter]
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 Um, your the speed of dark just just
00:09:25 --> 00:09:29 going back to that that quip. Uh there
00:09:29 --> 00:09:33 was a story I read uh probably a
00:09:33 --> 00:09:37 fortnight ago uh about exactly this in
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 that darkness
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 can move faster than the speed of light.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 >> No, [clears throat]
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 it it's but it's a an illusory darkness.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 is when you've got um light beams
00:09:52 --> 00:09:55 interfering with one another so that
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 you've that and interference
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 light beams can cancel out. So if you've
00:10:00 --> 00:10:02 got two light waves and you add them up
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 out of phase, they can cancel out and
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 you get darkness.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07 >> That's well-known principle of
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 intererometry. I used to play with that
00:10:09 --> 00:10:13 when I was a student a lot. Uh but there
00:10:13 --> 00:10:14 are certain circumstances that those
00:10:14 --> 00:10:18 patterns of darkness can actually exceed
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 the speed of light because they're not
00:10:21 --> 00:10:22 actually real. They're not real
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 entities. They're not a thing that's
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 carrying any sort of information or
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 energy. They're just patterns in a in an
00:10:29 --> 00:10:30 [clears throat] interference pattern.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 They're just dark patches in it. And I
00:10:32 --> 00:10:33 think under certain circumstances, they
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 could go faster than the speed of light.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:40 So, darkness might be not quite as uh
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 you know as twe as you thought it was,
00:10:43 --> 00:10:43 >> I guess.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 >> Anyway, anyway, uh that's not the the
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 question. Uh because dark photons are
00:10:50 --> 00:10:51 definitely something different and
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 they're basically
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 uh hypothetical. They've been
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 hypothesized by physicists and
00:10:59 --> 00:11:00 cosmologists
00:11:00 --> 00:11:05 as being a force carrier similar to the
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 ordinary photon but related to
00:11:09 --> 00:11:12 dark matter.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 In in other words, you might have Sorry,
00:11:15 --> 00:11:17 somebody's trying to phone me. I'm just
00:11:17 --> 00:11:18 going to kill that call.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:19 >> Yeah.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:21 >> Uh um
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 >> that was me. That was me. No, it wasn't.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 [laughter]
00:11:25 --> 00:11:26 >> [sighs and gasps]
00:11:26 --> 00:11:27 >> They're they're you know they're part of
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 the there may be when we discover
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 finally what dark matter is there may be
00:11:34 --> 00:11:38 a suite of dark particles
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 which could include dark photons. That's
00:11:40 --> 00:11:41 the line
00:11:42 --> 00:11:43 >> right?
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 >> And and so you know we mentioned last
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 week the or the last episode the uh the
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 large hydrron collider being upgraded to
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 be the high luminosity large hydrron
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 collider. Um, that's one of the things
00:11:55 --> 00:11:57 they'd be looking for will be dark
00:11:57 --> 00:11:58 photons.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:04 Okay. Uh, yeah, I tried to do a um an AI
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 search for an explanation on it and um
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 it it it sort of gave me all this gobbly
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 but um you know what would a dark
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 proton photon do? It says it would carry
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 a force within the dark sector.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 We call that the government. uh it might
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 allow dark matter particles to interact
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 with each other and it could very weakly
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 mix with normal photons giving us a way
00:12:27 --> 00:12:30 to detect it. And the reason they reckon
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 that scientists care about this is as
00:12:33 --> 00:12:35 you said could explain what dark matter
00:12:35 --> 00:12:38 is made of. So therefore solving some of
00:12:38 --> 00:12:40 those gaps in our current physics
00:12:40 --> 00:12:42 theories.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 So that's that's that's why people are
00:12:44 --> 00:12:45 interested in this and that's why
00:12:45 --> 00:12:47 they're upgrading the Large Hadron
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 Collider and
00:12:49 --> 00:12:52 >> hopefully we will learn more in years to
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 come. That's that's the that's the hope.
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 That's the hope. Yeah. So we might you
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 know we might be talking one day about
00:12:59 --> 00:13:01 dark photons um having been detected
00:13:01 --> 00:13:03 which would be
00:13:03 --> 00:13:05 >> a coup for space nukes.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 >> Yes, it will. Uh but at this stage uh
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 they are not proven. It's just a theory.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:13 So that's That's about as much as we
00:13:13 --> 00:13:15 know at this point in time.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:17 >> But uh very good question uh and thank
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19 you Peter for sending it in. This is
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25 Professor Fred Watson.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:27 Let's take a short break from the show
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 to tell you about our sponsor NordVPN
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00:15:14 --> 00:15:15 >> And I feel
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17 >> Space Nuts. Okay, Fred, we'll move
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 straight on to our next question, which
00:15:19 --> 00:15:23 is uh another audio question from Eli.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:27 Hello, this is Eli from sunny Coachella
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 Valley in California.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:33 I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I still
00:15:33 --> 00:15:35 can't get my head around deep space
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 astronomy. I get that the light from say
00:15:38 --> 00:15:41 a distant galaxy is a billion years old.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 But why that particular point in its
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 time? Is it just a matter of whatever
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 light is hitting us is the time we get
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 to see?
00:15:51 --> 00:15:55 But for really early light, the JWST
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 early universe stuff that's been
00:15:57 --> 00:16:01 traveling for 13 billion years and just
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04 hitting us now. Are we looking for the
00:16:04 --> 00:16:07 light that hasn't passed us by or hasn't
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 made it here yet, but is from that one
00:16:10 --> 00:16:14 precise location long ago?
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 This stuff is so difficult to get my
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 head around. Love the show and hope you
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 guys can clear this up for me.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 >> Uh, no we can't. We just thought we'd um
00:16:25 --> 00:16:27 put the question in there. Uh, thanks
00:16:28 --> 00:16:31 Eli. Uh it this is a deep um not only in
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 deep space astronomy terms but it is a
00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 deep deep topic. Uh I mean when we look
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 up into the sky at night and we see all
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 those beautiful colored dots we are
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 looking at history and it's variable
00:16:44 --> 00:16:47 history because some of it's 4.41 light
00:16:47 --> 00:16:51 years away and some of it's 400
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 light years away. Some of it's further
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 than that. It's um but then you've got
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 the cosmic microwave background
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 radiation which is kind of a leftover of
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 of um [gasps]
00:17:03 --> 00:17:05 what happened after the big bang and
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 that that's that's a different kettle to
00:17:08 --> 00:17:10 fish and I can understand why you got a
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 headache Eli. Over to you Fred.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14 [laughter]
00:17:14 --> 00:17:20 Thanks. Um so I guess you know that I I
00:17:20 --> 00:17:25 understand Eli's issue as well. um
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27 you you've got to be in the right place
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 at the right time to see a photon from a
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 distant galaxy. But I I guess the way to
00:17:32 --> 00:17:36 envisage this is if you think of the
00:17:36 --> 00:17:40 universe um and you've got to perhaps
00:17:40 --> 00:17:41 think of it as if you were looking at it
00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 from the outside, which we never can.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:46 But uh if you can think of it that way,
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 then it's full of objects which are
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 radiating light even in its infancy.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 when the universe was very young, the
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 stuff in it was basically shining. Um
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 once we got past the dark ages where no
00:17:59 --> 00:18:03 stars were shining, uh but um and those
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 are the galaxies that we now see. So so
00:18:05 --> 00:18:08 they're constantly radiating light and
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 that's like just like a river of light
00:18:10 --> 00:18:12 that's flowing
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 down time, if I can put it that way. Uh
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 and a long time in in the future, it
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 reaches us. But it's not just, you know,
00:18:22 --> 00:18:25 an individual photon or something that's
00:18:25 --> 00:18:27 reaching us. It's this stream of stuff
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 that is being radiated throughout the
00:18:30 --> 00:18:34 universe by these galaxies. So we um and
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 and we we pick it up. We pick it up
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 sometimes as exactly as you've said,
00:18:39 --> 00:18:40 well up to 10 billion years after it's
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 been radiated. I think
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 >> 12 billion years are the are the oldest
00:18:45 --> 00:18:47 or the earliest galaxies that we now
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49 see. We're looking back in time. 12
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 billion years and seeing them as they
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 were perhaps a billion and a half years
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 after the big bang. Um, and they're they
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 are shining. They're radiating light uh
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01 in the early universe and down the track
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 that reaches us because that light's
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 going in all directions. So, it wouldn't
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 matter where in the universe we were, we
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 would still see them. Uh, we'd just see
00:19:10 --> 00:19:12 them in a, you know, in a different
00:19:12 --> 00:19:14 position in the sky if we're a long way
00:19:14 --> 00:19:15 from where we are now.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 >> Yeah. Um but yeah so I I guess it's you
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 know in a way one way of thinking about
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 this is if you imagine us on planet
00:19:25 --> 00:19:28 earth here and imagine us being
00:19:28 --> 00:19:32 surrounded by a whole series of shells
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 uh which we're at the center of and this
00:19:34 --> 00:19:36 is a bit like the crystalline spheres
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 that people used to think uh the
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 universe was made of. Uh but these these
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 shells uh spherical shells all centered
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 on the earth but each one clicks over to
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 a to a a time further in the past. Uh
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53 because the lights coming to us from the
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 whole the whole cosmos which is full of
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 stuff. Uh and that's why we can see
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 these these shells sort of being
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 illuminated in a way by the objects that
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 uh that radiated them at that time. uh
00:20:05 --> 00:20:09 that has um that we see them because of
00:20:09 --> 00:20:11 the the distance that they are away from
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 us means that they've the light has
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 taken that long to get to us. Whether
00:20:16 --> 00:20:17 that helps or not in fact I think I've
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 just confused it completely but
00:20:20 --> 00:20:21 [snorts]
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 um I
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 just doing a little experimental search
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 here for a sec.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 What what I I I agree with in terms of
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 Eli's question and and getting your head
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 around it is um if Beetlejuice or
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 however you want to pronounce it went
00:20:42 --> 00:20:47 supernova right now as we were speaking
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 >> we wouldn't see it for
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 640 years.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:53 >> Yeah.
00:20:53 --> 00:20:57 So for it to have gone supernova in the
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 past and us to witness it, it has to
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 have happened
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 pretty close to 640 years ago. Does that
00:21:06 --> 00:21:07 make sense?
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09 >> Yes. Um so you could think of that in
00:21:09 --> 00:21:13 another way. Um you know um anywhere
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 between us and 640 light years away
00:21:16 --> 00:21:18 there could be this pulse of light
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 that's on its way to us
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 >> from Beetlejuice. uh it would spread out
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 in a sphere uh and as that sphere
00:21:26 --> 00:21:28 expanded eventually it would wash over
00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 the earth and we'd see it um and perhaps
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 see it during the day as well because it
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 might get bright enough to do that.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 >> Uh and and I think that's a really good
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39 way of putting it, Andrew, because um
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41 thinking about the galaxies, they're
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 just streaming light out all the time.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45 But something like uh a supernova
00:21:45 --> 00:21:47 explosion which gives a big pulse of
00:21:47 --> 00:21:50 light um that's perhaps easier to get
00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 your head around because that's that's
00:21:52 --> 00:21:57 just got a um it'll take whatever
00:21:57 --> 00:21:59 whatever time is represented by the
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 distance away. So 640 light years away.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 It'll take 640 years to get here for
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 that pulse to get here. But then it will
00:22:06 --> 00:22:09 sweep over us uh and we'll see the light
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11 the the light fading away.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:15 >> Yeah. And um the reason I chose that
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 target is because there's a lot of
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 conjecture about its future and the
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 possibility that it's reaching that
00:22:22 --> 00:22:23 critical mass point.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:24 >> Yes.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 >> Um but it could have already happened.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 That's the other thing. [laughter]
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30 >> But we that's that's something we can
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 have no knowledge of. That's the the key
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35 thing because um we are limited by the
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 speed of light. That's the thing that
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39 always limits our view of the universe.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 And just to confuse Eli a little bit
00:22:41 --> 00:22:45 more, there are probably things in the
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 universe we will never witness because
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49 the light is just too far away to reach
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 us in any reasonable amount of time.
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53 Even even
00:22:53 --> 00:22:56 >> beyond the life of the earth itself or
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 or our sun,
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 >> we we we there are things we will never
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 ever know about.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:04 >> Correct.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 >> It's um and that's where it just gives
00:23:06 --> 00:23:08 you um
00:23:08 --> 00:23:09 >> [snorts and laughter]
00:23:09 --> 00:23:11 >> one of those headaches that uh requires
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 you to take paracetamol and ibuprofen at
00:23:13 --> 00:23:17 the same time. So,
00:23:17 --> 00:23:18 [laughter]
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 >> um deep deep headaches. But Eli, great
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 question. I'm not sure we solved your
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 problem, but um anyway, uh it it I I try
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29 to explain this sort of stuff to my
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 grandson uh and my granddaughters and
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 you know, how do you explain time and
00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 distance to a to a a young child and um
00:23:40 --> 00:23:41 when you're trying to get through
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 traffic, it's [laughter]
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 >> that might not be the best time to do
00:23:45 --> 00:23:45 it.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 >> Probably not, but they're very
00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 interested.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 >> Very interested. Thanks, Eli. Great
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 question.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 The crew of Artemis 2 now bound for the
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 moon. Humanity's next great voyage
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 begins.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:03 >> Space nuts. Our final question uh comes
00:24:03 --> 00:24:07 from Nova Scotia. It's from Ken. Uh
00:24:07 --> 00:24:08 look, this is an old chestnut. We've
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10 we've probably spoken about this many
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 times, but it's always good to um to to
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 revisit. If the universe is expanding,
00:24:16 --> 00:24:20 what is it expanding into? And also is
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 the universe spherical?
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 So um yes, what's it expanding into?
00:24:25 --> 00:24:29 Well, we don't know. And yes,
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 >> that's yes. Uh it's actually we don't
00:24:32 --> 00:24:33 know and maybe
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 >> and maybe maybe.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 >> So um the the universe is everything
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41 that we can detect. That's the
00:24:41 --> 00:24:43 definition of the universe. Everything
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 we can measure or detect. And that means
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 and we observe the expansion
00:24:49 --> 00:24:52 but we don't know whether there's an
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54 edge to the universe. We don't know
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 whether it's infinite. We don't know
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 anything beyond the horizons that we
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 see. And the most obvious one is the
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 cosmic microwave background radiation
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 um which beyond which we can't see. But
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 the universe almost certainly goes on be
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 beyond that probably for a very long
00:25:09 --> 00:25:12 way. It may be very big. But we've got
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14 no knowledge of a boundary or or any
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 other medium that it might be expanding
00:25:17 --> 00:25:18 into.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:22 >> So um one possibility is the idea of
00:25:22 --> 00:25:27 multiple universes and they might exist
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 maybe in a higher dimensional
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 uh arena if I can put it that way. you
00:25:34 --> 00:25:37 know, if you've if if you can um find
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 that there are extra dimensions, we we
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 know the three dimensions of space and
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 one of time, that's what we've got now.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:49 Um but uh if there are hidden extra
00:25:49 --> 00:25:53 dimensions, maybe they provide a venue
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 for the universe to expand into. Uh and
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 there are various theories that accept
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 that. um M theory is one of them where M
00:26:02 --> 00:26:04 is probably an abbreviation for
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06 membrane. The idea is that the universe
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08 is can be collapsed onto a
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 two-dimensional membrane and there are
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 lots of these membranes in the univer in
00:26:12 --> 00:26:15 the in the kind of higher dimensional
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 universe but that's just conjecture and
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 we've got no mechanism for proving that
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 at the moment the only thing we know
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 with certainty with absolute certainty
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26 is that the universe is expanding.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:28 >> Yes. uh at an accelerating rate,
00:26:28 --> 00:26:29 although the accelerating rate's not as
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 accelerating as it once was. Possibly.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:33 >> Possibly.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35 >> Um yeah, there there's there's three
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 possible shapes of the universe. He asks
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 it's if it's a a sphere. Um there's uh
00:26:41 --> 00:26:43 the flat universe theory. Oh, do we have
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 to go there? Uh there's the closed
00:26:46 --> 00:26:49 universe theory, which is the positive
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 curvature, so a sphere. or the open
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 universe theory which is negative
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 curvature. So it's more like the shape
00:26:56 --> 00:26:57 of a saddle.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 >> From what I'm reading, the most popular
00:27:01 --> 00:27:04 >> likelihood is the flat universe theory,
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 >> but it but it's only flat in a ukidian
00:27:07 --> 00:27:10 sense. It doesn't mean it's shaped like
00:27:10 --> 00:27:11 a tabletop.
00:27:11 --> 00:27:14 >> Uh it means that parallel lines never
00:27:14 --> 00:27:16 meet. Basically, that's what we mean by
00:27:16 --> 00:27:17 flat. It's the the shape of the
00:27:17 --> 00:27:20 geometry. And the other thing that they
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 suggest is that um you know it can be
00:27:23 --> 00:27:25 flat and still expanding as you said uh
00:27:25 --> 00:27:28 it might be infinite. We've we've talked
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 about that before and there is likely no
00:27:30 --> 00:27:32 center and no edge.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 >> Correct. That's what we believe.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:40 >> Yeah. Now um to its shape so
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 uh so
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 basically I think Ken's question is is
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 it spherical
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49 >> and we don't know the answer to that. We
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52 we know that the volume within which we
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 can detect is spherical because the the
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 cosmic microwave background radiation
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 forms a an imaginary shell all around
00:28:02 --> 00:28:05 all around our galaxy. And it's the same
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08 distance in every direction. So in that
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10 regard, it's what we call isotropic, the
00:28:10 --> 00:28:12 same in all directions.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 Uh and that's really the only thing we
00:28:15 --> 00:28:18 can lay it down to. But there are ideas
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20 that if you looked at the universe on a
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 bigger scale than we could see, it
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 wouldn't be that it might be different
00:28:24 --> 00:28:26 in different directions.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 Um, and that in fact has been
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31 hypothesized as one of the sources of
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33 dark energy that we're just seeing a
00:28:33 --> 00:28:34 local bit of the universe that's
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 expanding whose expansion is increasing
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 whereas somewhere else it might be
00:28:40 --> 00:28:42 slowing down the expansion of the
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 universe. Um,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:45 >> yeah,
00:28:46 --> 00:28:46 >> sorry. Go on.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 >> No, that that would be a a universe
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 that's not isotropic. It's not the same
00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 in all directions, but we assume it's
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 isotropic. That's all we can do in our
00:28:55 --> 00:28:56 assumptions in cosmology.
00:28:56 --> 00:28:59 >> We just can't see
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 beyond what we can see, which sounds
00:29:01 --> 00:29:02 stupid, but that's that's the way the
00:29:02 --> 00:29:03 universe is.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 >> Yeah.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 >> Um Yeah. We've got the known universe
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 and then the rest.
00:29:08 --> 00:29:09 >> That's right.
00:29:09 --> 00:29:09 >> Basically,
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 >> and the rest might be a lot bigger than
00:29:11 --> 00:29:12 the known universe.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 >> We just Yeah. But we just don't know. Um
00:29:14 --> 00:29:16 I I [clears throat] the only thing I
00:29:16 --> 00:29:18 thought of is like you look at Earth's
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 atmosphere and as you go out it fins and
00:29:20 --> 00:29:24 so there's no defined line between space
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 and the earth proper. Could the universe
00:29:28 --> 00:29:30 be of the same ilk?
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 Yes. But that would imply that the
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 spacetime just sort of keeps keeps on
00:29:35 --> 00:29:37 going. It just might be empty.
00:29:38 --> 00:29:39 >> Uh
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 >> yeah. Don't know.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:41 >> Don't know more.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 >> We don't know. We don't know.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 >> Why are you asking us? We don't know.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 [laughter]
00:29:49 --> 00:29:52 >> Oh dear. Um, thank you, Ken. Uh, very
00:29:52 --> 00:29:54 thoughtprovoking question and thanks for
00:29:54 --> 00:29:55 sending it in. If you have questions for
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 us, please send them to us via our
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 website, spacenutspodcast.com,
00:30:00 --> 00:30:01 spacenuts.io.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:03 There's a little button at the top
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 called AMA, and that's what you click on
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08 to send us text and audio questions. If
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 you've got a device with a microphone,
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 you're all set. Uh most smartphones and
00:30:12 --> 00:30:14 smart devices have that and you can send
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17 it to us in audio form. Don't forget to
00:30:17 --> 00:30:18 tell us who you are and where you're
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 from or you can send us a text question.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:23 Just fill in the blanks. And while
00:30:23 --> 00:30:24 you're there, have a look around, visit
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26 the shop, get something from yourself.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:29 Um you know, whatever you like. And
00:30:29 --> 00:30:31 we're done. Fred, thank you so much.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 That was a tough one. [laughter]
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 Well, we you know, uh Space Nuts always
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40 probes the limits of knowledge. We does.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:40 That's what we do.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 >> Unfortunately, I have such limited
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 knowledge. I'm not very helpful, but um
00:30:44 --> 00:30:45 glad you're here.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 >> No, you are very helpful and um so are
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50 our listeners because they keep on
00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 probing which
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 >> they do indeed. All right, Fred. Thanks
00:30:53 --> 00:30:54 very much. We'll catch you on the next
00:30:54 --> 00:30:55 episode.
00:30:55 --> 00:30:56 >> Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:58 >> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00 large. And thanks to Hugh in the studio,
00:31:00 --> 00:31:01 who couldn't be with us today because
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 he's been expanding at an accelerating
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 rate, so he went to the gym. And from
00:31:05 --> 00:31:07 me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for your
00:31:07 --> 00:31:08 company. We'll see you on the next
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10 episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:11 >> Space nuts.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:13 >> You've been listening to the Space Nuts
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