Space Nuts: Spanish Eclipse, Nancy Grace Roman Launch, Cloud Nine, and Venus's Mysterious Clouds
Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson cover four big astronomy stories in this episode, from Fred’s trip to view a sunset eclipse in Spain to the launch of the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope. They also unpack a starless dwarf galaxy called Cloud Nine and a new way of thinking about the strange dark material in Venus’s clouds.
Guests and speakers
Andrew Dunkley - Host, frames the news, asks listener questions, and guides the discussion.
Professor Fred Watson - Astronomer at large, explains the eclipse, the Roman telescope, Cloud Nine, and Venus’s clouds.
Key topics
In this episode, Fred recounts the Spanish eclipse expedition
The eclipse was only 9 degrees above the western horizon at totality, making the viewing conditions unusually challenging.
He and Marnie led a 16-person tour through France, Spain, and Switzerland before settling near Santander in northern Spain.
They staked out a viewing site 2 kilometers from the hotel, set up a gazebo, and had to tie it down to a car to keep it from blowing away.
The weather looked threatening, but a hole opened in the cloud just before totality, giving them a clear view of the corona.
Fred described the yellowish corona, pink hydrogen clouds, and the crowd of around 2,000 people.
We discuss the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope launch
Andrew watched the launch live after being nudged by his own brain at the right moment.
Fred noted the launch was flawless, with 27 Merlin motors firing.
The telescope is headed for the L2 Lagrange point, about 1.5 million kilometers away.
Roman is a 2.4-meter Hubble-class telescope but with 100 times the field of view.
Its wide-angle infrared design should enable major surveys of dark matter, dark energy, and exoplanets via its coronagraph.
Fred explains why Cloud Nine matters
Cloud Nine is described as a starless dwarf galaxy about 14 million light years away.
It lies near Messier 94 and was studied using the Gran Telescopio Canarias and its Hypercam instrument.
The deep exposure was 2.36 hours, yet the team found no convincing stellar population.
Fred says theory suggests the gas may be too hot to cool and collapse into stars because of the ultraviolet background radiation after reionization.
He says Cloud Nine may be the first strong example of a galaxy predicted by standard cosmology but never before clearly identified.
Venus’s clouds are still puzzling astronomers
Fred explains that Venus appears yellowish because we see the top of its cloud layer, especially in visible light.
In ultraviolet, Venus shows dramatic global cloud patterns caused by an as-yet unidentified absorber.
The new study uses radiative transfer modeling to constrain what the unknown absorber could be.
The team compares Venus’s cloud droplets to cigarette smoke, tiny particles that look light-colored when dispersed but could become dark sludge in bulk.
The result suggests the absorber must be very efficient, very concentrated, or both, but it is not being claimed as evidence of life.
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Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/35083231?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunley,
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 your host. And it is good to have your
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09 company as always. Uh coming up on this
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 episode. Uh we're going to revisit the
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 Spanish eclipse because the man of the
00:00:14 --> 00:00:16 moment, the man who went there and
00:00:16 --> 00:00:17 pointed it out to everyone and said
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 that's what an eclipse looks like, he
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 couldn't join us. But Fred Watson will
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 talk about it. Uh we'll also be uh
00:00:24 --> 00:00:28 discussing the Nancy um Roman uh uh
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 observatory launch which I watched
00:00:30 --> 00:00:32 online the other the other night which
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 was spectacular. Uh and there's a
00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 there's a galaxy that they're looking at
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 with um a bit of a frown and a scratch
00:00:40 --> 00:00:42 of the neck because uh it does not
00:00:42 --> 00:00:45 appear to have many stars. Uh it's not
00:00:45 --> 00:00:48 emitting starlight. How could that be?
00:00:48 --> 00:00:50 And we'll finish up with the mystery
00:00:50 --> 00:00:53 clouds of Venus. That's all coming up on
00:00:53 --> 00:00:55 this episode of Space Nuts.
00:00:55 --> 00:01:00 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9g
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 Ignition sequence start.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:03 >> Space nuts.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:08 >> 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 >> Space Nuts.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 and he's back after traveling halfway
00:01:14 --> 00:01:16 around the world and returning and then
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 getting his leg um amputated. Well, not
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 quite, but uh he got it rebuilt. $6
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24 million. It was I think the price of
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 that. Uh it's Professor Fred Watson,
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28 astronomer at large. Hello, Fred.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 >> Hi, Andrew. Thank you for that great
00:01:30 --> 00:01:34 intro. Yes, $6 million. Um and my health
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 fund provided $42.50. So,
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 >> yes, that's usually how it goes in
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 Australia. Um, that's the going rate. No
00:01:40 --> 00:01:41 matter what it cost you to go and see a
00:01:42 --> 00:01:43 doctor, you get 40 bucks back.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:47 >> Yeah, it's a great system. Um, yeah.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:49 Anyway, we won't go there. That's
00:01:49 --> 00:01:50 politics.
00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 >> Yeah, that's right. But as you alluded,
00:01:52 --> 00:01:55 uh, I have indeed received a new knee.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:59 So, I had a my second T TKR, total knee
00:01:59 --> 00:02:00 replacement.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:00 >> Wow.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 >> Um, which is, uh, it was a week ago.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 Yesterday was the surgery. So, I'm still
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 on painkillers, so will not make any
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 sense whatsoever. Um, I might go to
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 sleep halfway through the show. That's
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 been one of the symptoms.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16 >> Well, between you falling asleep and me
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 sneezing, it should be an interesting
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 show. Hay fever is running right here at
00:02:20 --> 00:02:21 the moment,
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 >> and I I cannot control it. Um, I know
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 there's medications out there, but I'm
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 some I'm not allowed to take anymore
00:02:29 --> 00:02:30 because of my eyes.
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 >> So, it's made it more complicated. So,
00:02:32 --> 00:02:36 um, I'm I'm I'm well armed. Look, I've
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 got Oh, yes. the mandatory box of
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 tissues within arms length. So hopefully
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 we'll get through it, Fred. And um I'm
00:02:43 --> 00:02:44 glad the knee operation went well.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:46 You're the second person in a week that
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 I've met who's had a total knee
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 replacement. A friend of mine um
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 >> literally stepped into a hole that he
00:02:53 --> 00:02:54 didn't know was there because it was
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 full of grass and buckled his knee and
00:02:57 --> 00:02:58 the damage was too severe and they had
00:02:58 --> 00:03:01 to do a a knee replacement. Bit of a
00:03:01 --> 00:03:02 shocker that one.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:03 >> Yes.
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 >> But um he's still on crutches.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 >> Okay. Well, I've parked my crutches,
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 although I did resort to one in the
00:03:10 --> 00:03:12 middle of the night uh when I had to get
00:03:12 --> 00:03:14 up. Uh I thought I'm just going to use
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 the crotch that came this time. But
00:03:16 --> 00:03:20 yeah, um it doesn't take long. But um
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 you know, your colleague uh uh there, he
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 had much more than just a knee
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 replacement with that accident damage.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:30 Mine was just a quick one out, one in.
00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 Uh and so I think it's a lot more
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 predictable and probably a lot easier
00:03:34 --> 00:03:37 for me to recover. Um, I'm sorry he's
00:03:37 --> 00:03:39 still on crutches and hope he I wish him
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41 well. We used to speak on the radio a
00:03:41 --> 00:03:42 long time ago.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:45 >> That's right. One of my old radio mates.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:47 >> Uh, Fred, let's talk about the Spanish
00:03:47 --> 00:03:49 Eclipse. I saw a lot of pictures and
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 footage online. People getting very
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 artistic with their photography at
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 times. Uh, these things have become very
00:03:56 --> 00:03:57 popular.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 >> And, uh, from what I could tell, it was
00:04:00 --> 00:04:01 it was a little bit different because it
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 wasn't sort of up there. It was over
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 there. Is that how it went? It was more
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 on the horizon than than you'd normally
00:04:08 --> 00:04:09 expect.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 >> That's right. It was um and that was
00:04:11 --> 00:04:14 always the issue for us uh because at
00:04:14 --> 00:04:18 the time of totality it was only 9°
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 above the western horizon and that's
00:04:20 --> 00:04:25 very low down. Um but we figured that we
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 would take that risk. Uh the story
00:04:28 --> 00:04:31 actually goes back a long way. So so we
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 were leading a tour group. We had uh uh
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 16 16 of us through France and Spain and
00:04:37 --> 00:04:38 Switzerland. We went to Large Hadron
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 Collider. We went to two observatories
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 in France uh or Puvance and Pipidi, both
00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 of which were sensational. We really
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 enjoyed those visits and wound up at um
00:04:47 --> 00:04:51 Santandere in northern Spain. Uh we we
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 got there I think three days before the
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 eclipse. Um, and the first thing Mani
00:04:57 --> 00:05:01 and I did was to basically stake out
00:05:01 --> 00:05:03 where we were going to watch it from.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 Uh, because, um, in those resorts in
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 northern Spain on the coast, uh, they're
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 all built facing eastwards because they
00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 get the morning sun and often there is
00:05:12 --> 00:05:16 high ground behind them and and so we um
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 found a spot about 2 kilometers from our
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 hotel. We had a couple of vehicles so we
00:05:20 --> 00:05:24 could manipulate everything. Um Manne um
00:05:24 --> 00:05:28 bought a gazebo uh which we erected on
00:05:28 --> 00:05:30 our chosen spot. There was nobody there
00:05:30 --> 00:05:33 at that time, but we knew it was going
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 to fill up. Uh so we had this gazebo. Um
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 we the first night I said, "This is
00:05:38 --> 00:05:40 going to blow away if we just leave it
00:05:40 --> 00:05:43 here." So So we parked one of our
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 vehicles under the gazebo and tied the
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 gazebo down onto the roof of the car.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 Still there the next day. Yeah.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:52 >> And so the next day, but the gazebo was
00:05:52 --> 00:05:56 That's right. So, yeah, it turned into
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 quite a big event. There were there were
00:05:58 --> 00:06:00 very big crowds there. We'd obviously
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 chosen exactly the right spot. Um, lots
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 of people. An ice cream van was there
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 that turned up on day two.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:08 >> Oh, wow.
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 >> Day tminus one. Um, a whole lot of cops
00:06:11 --> 00:06:14 came on horseback and in vehicles and in
00:06:14 --> 00:06:15 helicopters. They were obviously all
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 taken completely by surprise by this
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 event. What's going on up there? Um but
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 yes on the afternoon so it was an
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 evening eclipse the afternoon uh the sky
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 was completely clear but uh towards the
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 end of the afternoon this bank of cloud
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 appeared in the west uh and you could
00:06:34 --> 00:06:36 see that it was sort of spreading
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 upwards as it approached.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 >> So the sun was effectively setting into
00:06:40 --> 00:06:42 that. The partial phase started at half
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 7. We got I spotted that with the
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 binoculars. It was a magical moment when
00:06:47 --> 00:06:49 I first saw the mountains of the moon
00:06:49 --> 00:06:51 just encroaching into the sun's disc.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 This was with binoculars with filters.
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 Uh and then we, you know, eclipses are
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 an amazing spectacle. You've got this
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 buildup over an hour or so as the moon's
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 disc gradually covers the sun and then
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 that time of perfection when it's when
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 the two are exactly aligned. So what
00:07:07 --> 00:07:08 happened? We all got steadily more and
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10 more depressed as the sun was sinking
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 into this bank of cloud. But about 2
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 minutes before totality, a hole opened
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 up uh right where the sun was. And when
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 the total eclipse happened, we got a
00:07:21 --> 00:07:23 perfect view of the corona. It was just
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 magical. It was clear. Um so we could
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 see the outer atmosphere of the sun. The
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 corona looked slightly yellowish and
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 that's because the sun was so low.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:34 Normally pure white
00:07:34 --> 00:07:36 >> and pink clouds of hydrogen which were
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 bigger than I've seen before. They were
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 spectacular. Lots of cheers from the
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 crowd. There were about 2 people
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 there by then. Uh we in our little tent,
00:07:45 --> 00:07:46 there were 20 of us, too, cuz two
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 members of my UK family or four members
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 came out to watch. So, a good time was
00:07:51 --> 00:07:52 had by all.
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 >> Uh and we were delighted to to get a
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 great eclipse and I think everybody was
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 very happy. And I spent the next
00:08:00 --> 00:08:01 >> I was going to say, isn't it twice in a
00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 row that you've been to an eclipse that
00:08:03 --> 00:08:04 was cloudy and it cleared up at the last
00:08:04 --> 00:08:05 second?
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 >> Cleared up. That's right. Um not nearly
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 twice in a It was the one before last, I
00:08:09 --> 00:08:09 think. Was
00:08:09 --> 00:08:10 >> Oh, yeah.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 >> Uh, no. Was it the last one? Yes, it was
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 the last one. It was in Texas. That's
00:08:15 --> 00:08:15 right.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 >> Uh, and it was cloudy. Uh, and then the
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20 holes appeared and
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 >> we we saw the eclipse. So,
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 >> yeah, some somebody's looking after us.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 I don't know who is looking after us. It
00:08:26 --> 00:08:27 was great.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 >> Um, yeah. And that sort of wrapped up
00:08:29 --> 00:08:31 the tour. Then we had a couple of days.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:33 Uh, we had I won't bore you with the
00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 details. We had a nightmare journey
00:08:35 --> 00:08:36 home.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 >> Oh. which involved rebooking flights uh
00:08:39 --> 00:08:41 two hours before they left through to
00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 Sim from Barcelona. But anyway, that's
00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 another story.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:46 >> Travelers tales, you've got plenty of
00:08:46 --> 00:08:47 them as well.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:51 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I guess the
00:08:51 --> 00:08:53 difference with that eclipse in Spain
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 was it was happening at sunset. And
00:08:56 --> 00:08:57 normally when you watch one of these
00:08:57 --> 00:09:01 eclipses, it turns day into night and
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 then it comes back to day again. But at
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 sunset, I guess you sort of missed out
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 on that kind of effect to a certain
00:09:07 --> 00:09:08 degree.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:09 >> Yeah, to a excuse me, to a certain
00:09:09 --> 00:09:11 extent because it but it got dark very
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 quickly as it does. It's only
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 >> when the something like 80 or 90% of the
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 sun's disc is covered. That's the only
00:09:18 --> 00:09:20 time when you notice the that things are
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 dimming. Um I think birds did go to
00:09:23 --> 00:09:24 sleep. We didn't really take much
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 notice. It was um 1 minute and 3 seconds
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 was the time of totality that we had.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:32 >> Yeah. Uh um but yes, it did get light
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 again. Uh light enough for us to take
00:09:34 --> 00:09:36 lots of photographs of each other and
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 all the rest of it. Uh we demolished the
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 gazebo, gave it to a guy, a French guy
00:09:41 --> 00:09:43 who thought it was the bees knees. He he
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 had a camper van next door. We also gave
00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 him the inflatable fridge that we
00:09:48 --> 00:09:49 bought.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:49 >> Oh my goodness.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:51 >> Did you know there was such a thing?
00:09:51 --> 00:09:52 >> I've never heard of it.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 >> My wife does. Uh, we had an inflatable
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 fridge and we gave him some chairs as
00:09:56 --> 00:09:58 well because we couldn't take all this
00:09:58 --> 00:09:59 stuff back to Australia.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:00 >> Of course.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:01 >> Yeah.
00:10:01 --> 00:10:02 >> Fantastic.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 >> Yeah. Well, you know, I'm all set for do
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07 2028.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:10 >> Yeah. 2028. That's right. So,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:11 >> less than two years now.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:12 >> Not far.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 >> We just been sitting on this one for 20
00:10:14 --> 00:10:16 years when we first found out about it.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 But, uh, yeah, looking forward to that.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 In fact, uh I think that year um there's
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 going to be three or four eclipses in
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 our part of the world or over those next
00:10:25 --> 00:10:25 couple years.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 >> Each of the next few years, yeah, I
00:10:27 --> 00:10:31 think till 20 30 something. I can't
00:10:31 --> 00:10:33 remember what it 38.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:35 >> Yeah, I don't know. There there are
00:10:35 --> 00:10:36 another three. That's right.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:37 >> Yeah.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:39 >> Okay. Um well, that sounds like fun.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:40 Let's talk about something else
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 extraordinary. Uh the other night I was
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 sitting uh in my lounge just about to
00:10:45 --> 00:10:46 pop off to sleep and my brain said, "You
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 know, they should be launching the Nancy
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 Roman Telescope sometime soon, Andrew."
00:10:51 --> 00:10:52 So I thought, "Oh yeah, yeah."
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 >> So I grabbed my iPad and I logged on and
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 and sure enough, the countdown was 5
00:10:57 --> 00:10:59 minutes from launch. And I thought,
00:10:59 --> 00:11:02 >> "Isn't the brain an amazing thing?"
00:11:02 --> 00:11:02 >> Yeah.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 >> That it that it reminded me of that 5
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 minutes before the launch. And and and I
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 I was oblivious to it at that moment.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 So, I watched the whole thing. It was
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 fantastic. Yeah, I I watched the replay
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 the next day. I wasn't um switched on as
00:11:18 --> 00:11:19 you were. I was probably asleep actually
00:11:19 --> 00:11:23 with them with the with the painkillers.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:25 But yes, I did I did um realize that it
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 was taking place then. Uh and yeah,
00:11:27 --> 00:11:29 flawless launch. It looked fantastic.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:30 >> It was, wasn't it?
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 >> All 27 of those Merlin motors firing
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 away there. M
00:11:35 --> 00:11:39 and it's now makes the 1 million is it
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 kilometers or miles journey to
00:11:42 --> 00:11:44 >> uh yes a million miles a million and a
00:11:44 --> 00:11:46 half kilometers uh and I think it's well
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 on the way this is to the the L2 point
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 that point on the far side of the earth
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 from the sun where there's this stable
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 stable gravitational thing which we call
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 a lrangee point um several spacecraft
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 there already including the James Web
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 and Gia the that European fantastic
00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 European project that's there. Few other
00:12:05 --> 00:12:06 ones
00:12:06 --> 00:12:07 >> they'll be running out of room up there.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 They'll have to put in traffic lights.
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 >> So it's interesting. Um you kind of
00:12:11 --> 00:12:12 think of that. Oh, if this is a stable
00:12:12 --> 00:12:14 point, they must always be trying to get
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 to the same point. But actually what
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 they are, they're all in orbit around a
00:12:18 --> 00:12:19 stable point.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 >> So you're in orbit around nothing. Um
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 but the gravitational forces work to
00:12:24 --> 00:12:25 sort of keep you keep you in orbit
00:12:25 --> 00:12:31 there. Um yep. So it's um yes. So so I I
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 don't know. I haven't really looked at
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 the commissioning schedule for the Nancy
00:12:36 --> 00:12:39 Grace Roman. Uh but um it's probably
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 already started because they don't waste
00:12:41 --> 00:12:43 much time with these things to you know
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 get as much data as they can just in
00:12:45 --> 00:12:47 case something catastrophic goes wrong
00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 early on. Um what we've got here is a
00:12:50 --> 00:12:54 Hubble class telescope um same sort of
00:12:54 --> 00:12:58 size as the Hubble uh 2.4 4 meters with
00:12:58 --> 00:13:01 uh the big difference that even though
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 it's got the fine detail, the resolving
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 power of the Hubble, it's got a 100
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 times the field of view of the Hubble,
00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 >> which means it sees 100 times more sky.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:14 And so, you know, the Pubble's always
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 been giving us these what you might call
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19 pinhole images, just almost looking
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 through a straw at the sky. Uh the Nancy
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 Grace Roman is a wide angle telescope.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 It's also infrared. Uh so it um it is
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 actually seeing redder than red light.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:33 And we've got high hopes for what it
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 might achieve with the huge galaxy
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 surveys which hopefully will show light
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 on would shed light on dark matter and
00:13:40 --> 00:13:45 dark energy. And um also it's got a very
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 sophisticated coronagraph on board. And
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50 a coronagraph is a thing that blocks out
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52 the light of a star so you can look for
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 other objects nearby. until we should
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 start seeing images of exoplanets coming
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 from the anti-grace Roman as well. So,
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 it is lots to talk about down the track,
00:14:02 --> 00:14:03 Andrew.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 >> Yeah, very exciting. When do they expect
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 it to actually be ready to roll? It it's
00:14:08 --> 00:14:10 a bit of a process, isn't it?
00:14:10 --> 00:14:11 >> It is. That's right. I'm not sure what
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 the schedule is, as I was saying, but um
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 we'll keep um we'll keep Space Not
00:14:16 --> 00:14:17 listeners posted. At the moment, the
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 news is all good. And
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 >> yeah, it is. It is. Uh in fact um I'm
00:14:23 --> 00:14:25 just looking.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 Yeah, first observations maybe early
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 next year sometime. They haven't got
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 >> exactly I had it in mind. It was 2027.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:33 >> Yeah.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:36 >> Um and I mean I I remember because we
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 lived it in real time the commissioning
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 for the Hubble telescope back in 1990. I
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 was an astronomer at the UK Schmidt
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 telescope then and we were getting
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 direct reports from NASA actually about
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 the commissioning before the interweb.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:55 Um and we very quickly realized that
00:14:55 --> 00:14:57 something was wrong uh because we got um
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 reports of the image diameter as they
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 went through focus
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 >> and the image diameter never got small.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:05 So it was quite obvious very early on
00:15:05 --> 00:15:07 that um there was a problem with the
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09 Hubble and of course took them three
00:15:09 --> 00:15:12 years to build a a little device to
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 correct for that and um uh then it was
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 flown on a space shuttle mission and the
00:15:18 --> 00:15:19 rest is history.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 >> Yeah. A pufu valve I think it was they
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 needed to put on it. Yeah. But um anyway
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 >> did have a name costbar was it something
00:15:27 --> 00:15:27 like that.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 >> Something like that. Um it was lucky
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 that it was close enough to get to. Um,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:33 >> yes, that's right.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:35 >> Can't do that with the L2.
00:15:35 --> 00:15:39 >> You can't. That's exactly right. Um,
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 >> yes, things have moved on a bit since
00:15:41 --> 00:15:42 then. They have.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 >> Uh, exciting times and we will watch
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 with interest and of course uh when they
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 um achieve first light and we start to
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 see some other images, we will share
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 them with you here on Space Nuts. And
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 you are listening to the latest edition
00:15:56 --> 00:15:58 with Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred
00:15:58 --> 00:15:59 Watson.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 Think
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 we need to do a little more all weather
00:16:03 --> 00:16:04 testing.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:05 >> Amen.
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 >> Space nets.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:09 >> Okay, Fred, let's talk about this
00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 strange galaxy. Um, some are saying it's
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 a failed galaxy. Uh, it's been described
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 as a starless galaxy and it's got a
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 name. It's called Cloud9. What is this
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 thing?
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 Uh it's um yes it's a not a mystery
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 galaxy in the sense that people have
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 speculated
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 that there may be galaxies without stars
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 and you know we tend to think of
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 galaxies as being made of stars because
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 ours is Milky Way is a gigantic spiral
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 of stars and gas and dust.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46 Very beautiful if we could see it from
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 the outside which sadly we we never can.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:54 Uh but um it has always been speculated
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 that there may be
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 uh galaxies which contain clouds of
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 hydrogen, the raw material of stars,
00:17:03 --> 00:17:07 which basically is too hot for the
00:17:08 --> 00:17:10 clouds to collapse into individual
00:17:10 --> 00:17:11 stars. I think I've got the logic the
00:17:11 --> 00:17:12 right way there.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:16 >> Yeah. Um, so you've got the raw material
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 of stars, but um, it doesn't form a
00:17:20 --> 00:17:25 stellar population. Um, and maybe um,
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27 it's because there's, you know, as I
00:17:27 --> 00:17:30 said, the gas is too hot. So this
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 particular object, Cloud9, it's not very
00:17:34 --> 00:17:37 far away. Uh, it is about 14 million
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 light years away. Uh, which puts it
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 really on our galactic doorstep. Uh it's
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 not far from uh a spiral galaxy called
00:17:45 --> 00:17:50 Messier 94 uh which is a lovely spiral
00:17:50 --> 00:17:51 uh if I remember rightly in the northern
00:17:51 --> 00:17:54 hemisphere sky. Uh well it must be
00:17:54 --> 00:17:55 because it's being observed by a
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 telescope that um I never really had
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 anything to do with but I knew its site
00:18:00 --> 00:18:01 well because it was built on a place
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 where I used to observe a lot. Uh this
00:18:03 --> 00:18:07 is the Grand Telescopio Canaras uh which
00:18:07 --> 00:18:10 is the big Canarian telescope. It's
00:18:10 --> 00:18:11 actually the biggest optical telescope
00:18:11 --> 00:18:13 in the world. It has a 10 m mirror.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:17 >> Um, and it's located
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 in La Palma in the Canary Islands and I
00:18:19 --> 00:18:21 used to observe there on a telescope
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 called the William Roshaw telescope. So
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 uh GTC as it's called Grand Telescopio
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 Canarius has a a camera um uh called
00:18:30 --> 00:18:34 Hyper Cam uh which is the one that I
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 think has really given us this research
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 on Cloud9 because the uh the colleagues
00:18:40 --> 00:18:44 who observed uh this object what they
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 did was they used that big telescope
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 with its um wide-angle camera uh in
00:18:49 --> 00:18:53 order to get very very deep images and
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 by deep images we mean ones that
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 penetrate to really faint levels. Uh
00:18:58 --> 00:19:02 they got 2 hours of integration uh
00:19:02 --> 00:19:06 which is quite quite a long time. Uh and
00:19:06 --> 00:19:09 didn't see any stars. I think they they
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 think they might have seen a small
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 number of stars but not uh a what we
00:19:16 --> 00:19:21 expect in a galaxy. Um so the uh one of
00:19:21 --> 00:19:25 the authors of this paper um basically
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 in offering an explanation of as to how
00:19:27 --> 00:19:31 you could have a galaxy with no stars uh
00:19:31 --> 00:19:32 I'll quote the leading theoretical
00:19:32 --> 00:19:35 explanation involves the ultraviolet
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 background radiation that permeates the
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 universe. Uh after the epoch of
00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 reionization
00:19:41 --> 00:19:43 uh that's right at the beginning this
00:19:43 --> 00:19:45 radiation field heats the gas in low
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 mass dark matter halos to temperatures
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 high enough that the gas cannot cool
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 efficiency and collapse to form stars. I
00:19:52 --> 00:19:53 think that might be what I said earlier
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 which is good. And so um when they do
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 simulations
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 um of uh you know the basically what
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03 this galaxy how it might have evolved
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05 sure enough it remains starless. They
00:20:05 --> 00:20:09 don't have any stars. So this looks like
00:20:09 --> 00:20:12 uh look like looks like a the first real
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 example of something that people have
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 thought must exist. Um and again quoting
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 from it's Dr. Trujill Trujillo who I
00:20:22 --> 00:20:23 think I might have worked with in La
00:20:23 --> 00:20:27 Palma many many years ago uh says cloud9
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 has a halo mass consistent with this
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 regime. In this picture, starless
00:20:32 --> 00:20:36 galaxies are not exotic anomalies, but a
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 natural and abundant prediction of
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 standard cosmological models. The
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 challenge has simply been finding them.
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 So, um maybe it's not such an unusual
00:20:45 --> 00:20:49 thing after all. Uh but, uh something
00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 that has been predicted, but yes, the
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54 first I think the first one that we can
00:20:54 --> 00:20:58 really be sure uh is a starless galaxy.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 >> Yeah, very very unusual. Um, I'd suppose
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 the description failed galaxy would be
00:21:05 --> 00:21:06 probably accurate given the
00:21:06 --> 00:21:07 circumstances.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 >> Yes, if you if you think of a normal
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 galaxy as being populated by stars, it
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 is. Um, but you you can see that there's
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17 good reason for it to fail. If the if
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 the temperature of the background gas
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21 and the dark matter that's in it are too
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 high for stars to form
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 >> um and you might consider it a success
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 because it's a purely gaseous galaxy.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 Yeah. Yeah. Uh I suppose one day it
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 might merge with another galaxy and then
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 you know all hell would break loose.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:40 >> That No, you're right. That's a good
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 point because it's not that far from M94
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 which is a big galaxy. Uh this is a it
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 counts as a dwarf galaxy. I didn't
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 really make that clear. And of course
00:21:50 --> 00:21:53 our our own galaxy has dwarf galaxies in
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55 orbit around it most of which contain
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 stars. Uh and so and the fate of those
00:21:59 --> 00:22:00 dwarf galaxies is basically to become
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03 part of the of the bigger galaxy. So it
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 may be that cloud 9 eventually does that
00:22:06 --> 00:22:09 and maybe the conditions will change so
00:22:09 --> 00:22:12 that the the gas becomes um uh cool
00:22:12 --> 00:22:15 enough or or otherwise relaxed enough uh
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 in order to start form stars.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 >> Okay, if you want to read all about the
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 starless galaxy cloud9 uh there's a
00:22:22 --> 00:22:26 great article on space.com.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:30 Um Fred, we got a live viewer who has it
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 was from do actually. Hi Lynette. Um,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 she says, "Uh, hello from do. How long
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 did you stay?" I assume she means Spain.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:40 Um,
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 >> our earlier conversation.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 >> Yes, we were in Spain for, uh, roughly a
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 week. Actually, uh, I didn't tell you,
00:22:47 --> 00:22:51 but I I got, um, I got
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 thieved from by a pickpocket.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:55 >> Oh,
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 >> yeah. Um, but very very common thing
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 over there. It was in Bilbo and
00:23:01 --> 00:23:02 >> Oh, we went there.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:03 >> Lovely place.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 >> Yeah. Did you get your binoculars nicked
00:23:05 --> 00:23:06 as well?
00:23:06 --> 00:23:12 >> No. No. I I'm very very um
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 look, we'll use the word anal about
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 holding on to my stuff quite literally.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:16 Yep.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:18 >> I put stuff in my pockets and I'll shove
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 my hands in my pockets and I will not
00:23:20 --> 00:23:21 take them out.
00:23:21 --> 00:23:22 >> Yeah.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24 >> I must look weird.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:25 >> Well, you look weird anyway, Andrew. But
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 that's, you know, not not good. Not bad
00:23:28 --> 00:23:30 news anyway. Uh but but no, you're
00:23:30 --> 00:23:34 right. Um so I'm like that too. But um I
00:23:34 --> 00:23:39 I had a a sort of manbag. Um and um I
00:23:39 --> 00:23:41 was walking back from the Guggenheim
00:23:42 --> 00:23:43 exhibition which you probably went to
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 see as well in Bel
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 >> to our hotel
00:23:46 --> 00:23:50 >> and I thought I noticed a bit of a
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 disturbance behind me. I had headphones
00:23:52 --> 00:23:54 on um noise cancelling headphones cuz I
00:23:54 --> 00:23:55 was walking.
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 >> Yeah. Um, and when I got into the hotel,
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 I looked in my manb bag and the zip was
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 open and I know I'd shut it up and my
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 binoculars were missing.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08 >> So, man said, "Go outside and have a
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10 look. They might have thrown them away."
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 So, went outside.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 Here's four policemen bailing up these
00:24:15 --> 00:24:18 two guys.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:18 >> Got them.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:19 >> And they've been they've been following
00:24:20 --> 00:24:21 them because they'd created some sort of
00:24:22 --> 00:24:25 problems in a bar. Um, and I approached
00:24:25 --> 00:24:29 one of the policemen and said, "Um,
00:24:29 --> 00:24:30 I've lost a pair of binoculars." And he
00:24:30 --> 00:24:31 just said, "Yeah, we've got your
00:24:31 --> 00:24:32 binoculars."
00:24:32 --> 00:24:33 >> Wow.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 >> So, I got them back.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 >> Fantastic.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 >> It Yeah. These guys had tried to throw
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 them away when they saw the police were
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 on them and the cops had seen it. The
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 cop who
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 >> dealt with me spoke great English. He
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 was an absolute gentleman. It was uh
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 such a good experience that man insisted
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 on taking our photographs together and
00:24:55 --> 00:24:57 things like that afterwards.
00:24:57 --> 00:24:58 >> Well, you got very lucky, Fred. Very
00:24:58 --> 00:24:59 lucky.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:01 >> Very, very lucky indeed. Yeah,
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 absolutely lucky. I couldn't believe it.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 And actually those
00:25:05 --> 00:25:06 >> uh you know, I can go on about
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 binoculars add infinitum having written
00:25:09 --> 00:25:10 the first book in English on the history
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 of binoculars. Uh but they were a
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15 special pair as well, quite new. They're
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 new to me. They're um basically they
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 were made in the 60s or sorry the the '
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 70s but they're very very good ones and
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 um a lot of money.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 >> So Starchild says um we got a few live
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30 uh viewers at the moment and Starchild
00:25:30 --> 00:25:32 says quite a few thieves in the Milky
00:25:32 --> 00:25:34 Way.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:35 >> Yes, that's right.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:39 >> Yeah. Um and there was another question.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 Uh oh, good says good to see you two
00:25:42 --> 00:25:43 together again. Moose says how much did
00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 I miss? Uh about that much.
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49 I think we're a bit past halfway, Moose.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:53 And um another question. Um how many
00:25:53 --> 00:25:55 light years across is a dwarf galaxy? I
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 guess they're all different sizes. They
00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 are, but it's a good question. I mean um
00:26:00 --> 00:26:02 so think of our galaxy, which is kind of
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 100 lighty years across. Um and
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 that's typical of a of a major spiral
00:26:09 --> 00:26:13 galaxy. A dwarf galaxy would probably be
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 less than a tenth of that. Um 10
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 light years, that sort of size, you
00:26:18 --> 00:26:21 know, just on on on average, that kind
00:26:21 --> 00:26:23 of that kind of size.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:25 >> Okay, thanks for the question. It
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 doesn't happen like this very often, but
00:26:27 --> 00:26:28 today
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 we've got an active audience. That's
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 good.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 >> Yeah. All right. Uh you're listening to
00:26:34 --> 00:26:36 Space Nuts, by the way, uh with Andrew
00:26:36 --> 00:26:40 Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 Okay, we checked all four systems and
00:26:43 --> 00:26:44 >> space nets.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 >> Our final topic, Fred, takes us to
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 Venus. Sunny Venus. Oh, yes. What a
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 place. Go outside, take a deep breath,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 drop dead. Um, but there's some news
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 about Venus, which involves its clouds
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 again. Now, the last time this was big
00:26:59 --> 00:27:01 news was when they thought they might
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 have found um signs of life in the
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05 clouds. That's still under a lot of
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 speculation and debate. But what's the
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 latest with these clouds? The these
00:27:10 --> 00:27:11 aren't the the ones we were talking
00:27:12 --> 00:27:13 about last time. These these are a
00:27:13 --> 00:27:15 little bit different again. Yes, they
00:27:16 --> 00:27:17 are. Yeah. So, I think that was sulfur
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 was it sulfur dioxide? I can't remember
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 the um the detection which uh which
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 people got excited because it might been
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 living organisms in the upper atmosphere
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 of Venus, but I think that's gone away
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 now. Um, it's great to talk about Venus,
00:27:31 --> 00:27:33 especially just now because you would
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 know, Andrew, it's absolutely lighting
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 up the evening sky, uh, over there in
00:27:38 --> 00:27:39 the west. It is very bright, very high
00:27:40 --> 00:27:41 in the sky.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 >> Beautiful object. And when we look at
00:27:43 --> 00:27:47 it, it's kind of got a yellowish color.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49 Uh, which is because we're seeing
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 reflections from the top of its cloud
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 layer. Um but uh it's been known for a
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 long time that if you photograph Venus
00:28:00 --> 00:28:04 in with ultraviolet light you you see
00:28:04 --> 00:28:08 patterns really dramatic patterns and I
00:28:08 --> 00:28:09 I haven't got one in front of me now but
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 I do remember photographs of this that
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 these are sort of globalized patterns
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 that actually move uh with the the
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 clouds of Venus. And as we know, I think
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 most space notes uh listeners and
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 viewers would know that we don't
00:28:25 --> 00:28:26 actually see the surface of Venus
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 directly. We can with radar uh certain
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31 infrared observations that let you
00:28:31 --> 00:28:32 penetrate to the surface, but basically
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 all we see uh and certainly in
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 ultraviolet is the upper parts of the of
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 the cloud belts, cloud layers.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:43 >> So the markings themselves uh are a
00:28:43 --> 00:28:47 puzzle. And um this is where it sort of
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 gets interesting, although it's not one
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 of these stories that's got a neat and
00:28:50 --> 00:28:53 tidy answer, I'm afraid. Um there's
00:28:53 --> 00:28:56 there's a chemical that is thought to be
00:28:56 --> 00:28:59 in Venus's upper atmosphere,
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 which is called the unknown absorber.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:06 Uh and because uh it absorbs light uh in
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 the ultraviolet, and you get dark
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 patches from from this this stuff. Um, I
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 was talking to somebody about this the
00:29:14 --> 00:29:15 other day and they said it sounds like a
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 superhero, the unknown absorber. Uh,
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 which, uh, I think probably would work
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 well. Yeah.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 >> His superhero name would be the sponge.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 >> The sponge. That's right.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:33 So what's happened is that um a team an
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 international team actually of basically
00:29:35 --> 00:29:38 astrobiologists people who are looking
00:29:38 --> 00:29:42 at uh the origin of life in the universe
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 and what we need for life to form and
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 all of those other good things not
00:29:46 --> 00:29:47 necessarily trying to find life but
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 trying to understand life. um what
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53 they've done uh they've essentially this
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 this research team I think they've done
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 very cluey kind of modeling
00:29:59 --> 00:30:03 um of the droplets within the clouds of
00:30:03 --> 00:30:08 Venus to try and not identify what this
00:30:08 --> 00:30:12 unknown absorber is but sort of um place
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15 limits on its properties you know it
00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 does this but it doesn't do that uh and
00:30:18 --> 00:30:19 it does this to to this extent, but it
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 doesn't do that to this extent. So, it's
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 uh it's all about trying to model what
00:30:25 --> 00:30:28 cloud droplets would look like to
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 actually reproduce what we see when we
00:30:30 --> 00:30:35 observe the planet. Um so,
00:30:35 --> 00:30:39 uh one of the authors of the paper
00:30:39 --> 00:30:43 basically poses a question. Uh, if we
00:30:43 --> 00:30:46 were to collect Venus's cloud droplets,
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 and I'm paraphrasing here, into a
00:30:48 --> 00:30:52 bucket, how would the reformed bulk
00:30:52 --> 00:30:53 liquid appear?
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 >> Uh, the scientist actually said a
00:30:55 --> 00:30:58 spectrometric cuette, but a bucket's as
00:30:58 --> 00:31:01 good an analogy for that as you need. If
00:31:01 --> 00:31:02 you could collect the droplets, what
00:31:02 --> 00:31:08 would it look like? Um and that is the
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 sort of key to the modeling that's been
00:31:11 --> 00:31:15 done. Um they there's a comment um I
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17 think it might come from the original
00:31:17 --> 00:31:20 paper but um fsdoc.org has got a very
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 nice article on this uh and I think it
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 may even come from their press release.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:30 Uh but basically it's um likening the
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 droplets in the clouds of Venus to
00:31:33 --> 00:31:37 cigarette smoke. Uh because um cigarette
00:31:37 --> 00:31:40 smoke is tiny particles, tar tiny tarry
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 particles
00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 um which look sort of white or bluish
00:31:45 --> 00:31:47 because of the scattering of light.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 Because these things are so small they
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 scatter light very effectively. But if
00:31:51 --> 00:31:53 you collected it into a flask, you got
00:31:53 --> 00:31:57 this horrible sludge uh t- like sludge.
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 Of course, that is what ends up in your
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 lungs if you're a smoker.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 >> Um yeah. So what they're suggesting is
00:32:05 --> 00:32:08 that there's a similar phenomenon
00:32:08 --> 00:32:10 happening in Venus's clouds. Uh because
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 the particle size of the droplets in
00:32:13 --> 00:32:15 Venus's upper atmosphere are comparable
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 to the particle size of cigarette smokes
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 smoke. So even though um you know even
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 though the clouds with the with visible
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 light look that sort of yellowish color
00:32:28 --> 00:32:31 that we've mentioned already, the actual
00:32:31 --> 00:32:34 droplets themselves could be really
00:32:34 --> 00:32:36 really dark and it's only because they
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37 scatter the light in a certain way that
00:32:37 --> 00:32:40 they look that they look yellowish.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:44 Um so this basically this uh research is
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 asking that question. What h what would
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 happen if you could collect a cloud of
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 material from the atmosphere of Venus
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 and put it into a
00:32:52 --> 00:32:57 basically you know a a flask or a or a
00:32:57 --> 00:33:00 beaker or something like that. Um and
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 that's where this analysis has gone and
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 they've used something it's words that
00:33:06 --> 00:33:08 used to strike terror into me when I was
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 a student in astronomy Andrew and I
00:33:10 --> 00:33:11 don't know whether I've uttered them
00:33:11 --> 00:33:15 ever since. radiative transfer. Uh
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17 radiative transfer is the way radiation
00:33:17 --> 00:33:22 moves around uh among atoms. Uh and it's
00:33:22 --> 00:33:25 very very intense mathematics. So these
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 scientists obviously like that kind of
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30 thing. I'm afraid I didn't. uh and have
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 built a radiative transfer model that uh
00:33:32 --> 00:33:36 actually lets you um account for not
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 just single scattering but multiple
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 scattering because you've you've got to
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 um take into account that light might
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 scatter from one of those droplets and
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 then hit another one and scatter from
00:33:46 --> 00:33:48 that. So you've got multiple scattering
00:33:48 --> 00:33:53 phenomena. Um and so uh they have
00:33:53 --> 00:33:56 basically done that and produced what is
00:33:56 --> 00:33:59 called the absorption coefficient of the
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01 bulk cloud liquid. That's the how it
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 would absorb um if you just had a flask
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 of this stuff. Now what they're saying
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09 is that they don't really know what this
00:34:09 --> 00:34:12 these droplets are, but they're not
00:34:12 --> 00:34:15 suggesting its life. Um they've they've
00:34:15 --> 00:34:18 put limits on the absorption
00:34:18 --> 00:34:24 coefficient. Um and uh essentially
00:34:24 --> 00:34:26 again paraphrasing the uh press release
00:34:26 --> 00:34:29 from f.org uh the result implies that
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32 the unknown absorber must either absorb
00:34:32 --> 00:34:36 light very efficiently, occur at a very
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 high concentration or both. Uh my guess
00:34:39 --> 00:34:42 is it's going to be both. Um, so, uh,
00:34:42 --> 00:34:45 it's it's some sort of probably some
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 sort of organic compound, and by that I
00:34:47 --> 00:34:49 mean one that contains carbon rather
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 than one that contains living organisms.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55 Um, and they've basically, you know,
00:34:55 --> 00:34:57 they've suggested some chemicals that
00:34:57 --> 00:35:01 might actually be be responsible for
00:35:01 --> 00:35:03 this. Uh, excluding, they say
00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 chlorophyll. Chlorophyll, of course,
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 very important in life processes. uh but
00:35:08 --> 00:35:09 they're excluding they're saying they're
00:35:09 --> 00:35:12 not proposing chlorophyll as as a as an
00:35:12 --> 00:35:15 example. So uh as I said it's a story
00:35:15 --> 00:35:18 that doesn't have a conclusion uh but
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21 it's interesting to think of the the
00:35:21 --> 00:35:22 clouds of Venus that if you could
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25 collect them in a bucket or a container
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 they could be very very dark mixtures
00:35:27 --> 00:35:31 like tar a sort of sludge of of tar
00:35:31 --> 00:35:36 which um would be interesting.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38 Yeah, it's um
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40 it's a classic example of a failed
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 earthlike world.
00:35:43 --> 00:35:45 >> Yes, that's right. Yes, indeed. We don't
00:35:45 --> 00:35:47 have things like this on in our planet,
00:35:47 --> 00:35:49 thankfully.
00:35:49 --> 00:35:50 >> Yeah. Um
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52 >> I think there's more um Sorry, Andrew,
00:35:52 --> 00:35:53 just to finish the story, I think
00:35:53 --> 00:35:57 there's more research being designed
00:35:57 --> 00:36:02 possibly looking uh uh with a a future
00:36:02 --> 00:36:05 mission to Venus. uh perhaps looking for
00:36:05 --> 00:36:08 fluoresence in the uh in the clouds
00:36:08 --> 00:36:10 because that would give them another
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 angle on what this stuff is.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:16 >> Okay, we watch with interest. Uh yeah,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 Venus keeps throwing up curve balls. The
00:36:18 --> 00:36:19 uh
00:36:19 --> 00:36:20 >> just doesn't
00:36:20 --> 00:36:22 >> the potential for life in the clouds
00:36:22 --> 00:36:24 because of the discovery of phosphine
00:36:24 --> 00:36:28 and now this um a bucket of tar. Yay.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:31 What a place. Next holiday, I think.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:33 Well, yeah. Plus, you've got the
00:36:33 --> 00:36:34 sulfuric acid as well.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:36 >> Oh, that's true. Yes. Yes. And and the
00:36:36 --> 00:36:39 um undeniable level of heat. I think
00:36:39 --> 00:36:40 Australians could handle it and a few
00:36:40 --> 00:36:42 other places in the world, but most No,
00:36:42 --> 00:36:44 most people couldn't. It's horrible.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:46 It's an horrible place, but very pretty
00:36:46 --> 00:36:48 in the sky at the moment.
00:36:48 --> 00:36:49 >> It is.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:51 >> Uh you can read all about it at f.org as
00:36:51 --> 00:36:53 Fred said or you can read the entire
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 paper which was published in
00:36:55 --> 00:36:57 astrobiology.
00:36:57 --> 00:36:59 And that brings us to the end. Fred,
00:36:59 --> 00:37:01 thank you very much.
00:37:01 --> 00:37:02 Uh, it's a pleasure, Andrew. Um, it's
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05 always good to chat and um, even better
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 to chat when you're half asleep.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10 >> You did well. You did well. For those
00:37:10 --> 00:37:13 who joined us late, um, you'll have to
00:37:13 --> 00:37:14 listen to the episode, get the full
00:37:14 --> 00:37:18 explanation of Fred's sleepiness. Um,
00:37:18 --> 00:37:20 it's got something to do with um,
00:37:20 --> 00:37:24 painkillers. Anyway, we'll get on uh,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:25 hopefully he'll brighten up for the next
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27 episode. I suspect not.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29 >> Um, thank you, Fred. We'll catch you
00:37:29 --> 00:37:30 soon.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:32 Sounds great. Thank Thanks, Andrew.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34 >> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at
00:37:34 --> 00:37:36 large. And don't forget to visit us at
00:37:36 --> 00:37:38 our website between episodes, which you
00:37:38 --> 00:37:40 can do at spaceenutspodcast.com
00:37:40 --> 00:37:44 or spacenuts.io. Have a look around and
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46 um see what's there. The shop, you can
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49 send us messages, you can sign up for
00:37:49 --> 00:37:50 astronomy daily. Plenty of things to see
00:37:50 --> 00:37:51 and do. And don't forget to leave
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54 reviews about our podcast wherever you
00:37:54 --> 00:37:56 listen to us. And thanks to Hugh in the
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58 studio who couldn't be with us today
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 because he discovered that he's um he's
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 more at home in a starless galaxy. And
00:38:03 --> 00:38:04 from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for your
00:38:04 --> 00:38:06 company. See you on the next episode of
00:38:06 --> 00:38:08 Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09 >> Space Nuts.
00:38:09 --> 00:38:11 >> You'll be listening to the Space Nuts
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