#471: HERA's Martian Maneuvers, Black Hole Light Echoes & Ancient Healing Rays

[00:00:00] Hi there, thanks for joining us. This is Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley. Lovely to have your company again.

[00:00:07] Coming up in this episode we're going to look at the HERA mission which was launched not so long ago but now they've reached some critical points in the mission even though it won't reach its destination for quite some time.

[00:00:20] They've done some critical burns to get the thing moving in a more expedient fashion let's say.

[00:00:27] We're also going to look at black holes, well not specifically but black hole echoes and how they might be able to be found using light.

[00:00:37] And speaking of light, this is a really interesting story about the human history of using light to treat people's ailments.

[00:00:46] That's all coming up on this episode of Space Nuts.

[00:00:50] 15 seconds, guidance is internal. 10, 9, ignition sequence start.

[00:00:56] Space Nuts. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

[00:01:02] Space Nuts. Astronauts reported, feels good.

[00:01:07] And here again, see what I did there? Is Professor Fred Watson. Hello Fred.

[00:01:14] Oh you should be on radio you know Andrew. Such good stuff. There you do.

[00:01:19] I think 40 years on radio was enough. Although you know what, I'd go back tomorrow if anyone asked.

[00:01:26] Oh don't tell Judy. Don't tell Judy.

[00:01:28] But I would.

[00:01:30] Yeah, it's just good fun. I just, I loved being on the air and telling silly stories and got a big kick out of breaking news if something big happened and no one else knew about it.

[00:01:41] Yeah.

[00:01:42] I know that sounds pretty morbid because sometimes it wasn't good news but breaking a story as a journalist is always a big, yeah, it makes you feel good.

[00:01:55] Sometimes.

[00:01:56] I better qualify that. It's not always.

[00:01:58] No, I know what you mean.

[00:02:00] What you mean, yeah.

[00:02:02] Yes.

[00:02:03] Yes.

[00:02:04] Yes.

[00:02:04] We have plenty.

[00:02:06] This is a really fascinating episode, Fred, because we're talking about firstly the hero mission but I'm really interested in the two different stories about light.

[00:02:19] And of course, you know, we couldn't do without light for many, many reasons.

[00:02:24] So we'll get into that.

[00:02:26] But the hero mission, we didn't really talk about it when it first started because I mean, it started as a rocket launch and what can you say?

[00:02:34] It launched.

[00:02:35] Okay, we got that done.

[00:02:36] But now, HERA has reached a critical point and they've done a fairly significant burn to get it into an accelerated approach to Mars where it will do a gravity assist and then that'll pick it up even more.

[00:02:53] But I think they've got to do another burn before that because they've got to adjust its course to get on target.

[00:02:59] We might start though by talking about what the HERA mission is all about.

[00:03:05] It's got two sort of objectives.

[00:03:06] One's a minor objective taking advantage of the Mars visit.

[00:03:12] Indeed, that's right.

[00:03:13] So it's, in fact, it will be really interesting.

[00:03:16] And that flyby that we're about to talk about is March next year.

[00:03:20] It's not very far down the track.

[00:03:22] So we've got a close approach to Mars and it's a gravitational assist.

[00:03:31] That's why it's basically happening.

[00:03:35] But it comes, it will come within 300 kilometers of the surface of Deimos, which is Mars' smaller moon.

[00:03:44] If I remember right, it's about 14 kilometers across.

[00:03:47] It's a tiny world.

[00:03:49] And this will give us some really good close-up images of the surface of Deimos, which has been explored already by the, you know, some of the orbiters that are around Mars.

[00:04:03] But that is here is going to give us another look.

[00:04:08] And just to tie up the details, you've sort of mentioned this already, but the flyby, the reason why we're talking about this and why it's sort of in the news is because of this trajectory correction.

[00:04:23] So it's an ESA mission.

[00:04:26] I didn't mention that at the beginning.

[00:04:28] European Space Agency launched a 7th of October, so very recently, but towards the end of October on the 23rd, as you said, it was, it underwent a course correction.

[00:04:39] And the details are that it fired all three of its orbital control thrusters for 100 minutes.

[00:04:46] That's a long run.

[00:04:48] And it changed the velocity by 146 meters per second.

[00:04:53] And then there was another one carried out just a few days ago.

[00:05:02] I'm not sure.

[00:05:03] Yes.

[00:05:05] From where we are now, it's four days ago.

[00:05:07] It was on the 6th of November.

[00:05:09] That lasted 13 minutes and put in an additional 20 meters per second.

[00:05:14] And now we've got it absolutely on track for the gravity assist at Mars in March 2025.

[00:05:20] So something to look forward to that we will almost certainly talk about next year.

[00:05:25] Yes, indeed.

[00:05:27] I'm just trying to look up what its actual speed is total, but I'm having trouble finding it.

[00:05:34] But it's going hell for leather.

[00:05:37] Let's just say that.

[00:05:41] Yes.

[00:05:42] Yes.

[00:05:42] So there is a, there's a further burn coming up a little bit later this month, Andrew, on

[00:05:50] 21st of November, which the mission scientists say will be a few, it will be another correction

[00:05:57] of just a few tens of centimeters per second.

[00:06:01] So it's less than a laser.

[00:06:03] Yeah.

[00:06:04] It's just incredible what these guys can do.

[00:06:08] I read, I think, that the telemetry that they're gathering so that they can make the adjustments includes three locations on the surface of the earth.

[00:06:21] And one of those is in Australia.

[00:06:22] Is that right?

[00:06:24] Probably.

[00:06:24] Yes, that's right.

[00:06:25] ESA does have a, it's got a tracking station in Australia.

[00:06:29] I think it's the new Norsia one.

[00:06:31] But I might be wrong with that.

[00:06:33] But there is an ESA tracking station here.

[00:06:35] So, you know, it's going to take a closer look at DEMOS, which is of great interest, given that, you know, it could, it could become crucial in terms of future visits to Mars.

[00:06:49] It might, it might provide some kind of, is it the one that's going to actually fall back into Mars at some stage or is it the other one?

[00:06:58] That's Phobos.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:06:59] Phobos is kind of spiraling slowly downwards towards the surface of Mars.

[00:07:03] I think DEMOS is going the other way, actually.

[00:07:05] Right.

[00:07:06] Oh, okay.

[00:07:08] And is, is the thinking that they used to be like they captured asteroids?

[00:07:13] Yes, probably.

[00:07:15] It's, they're odd worlds.

[00:07:17] Phobos is, it's, it's got the density of a piece of pumice.

[00:07:21] It's, you know, it's made most, probably 50% of it is empty space, which is really interesting.

[00:07:26] So that Phobos will be an interesting world to visit.

[00:07:30] And you might remember, it's probably now at least a decade ago, there was a mission to Phobos, which was launched by the Russian Space Agency, Roscosmos.

[00:07:40] It was called Phobos Grunt.

[00:07:42] And Grunt was the word for ground, because it was going to land on Phobos, but it didn't make it.

[00:07:47] The launch vehicle didn't give it enough orbital velocity and sadly burned up in the atmosphere, in the Earth's atmosphere, not Mars's.

[00:07:54] So yes, you're right.

[00:07:55] There's all that happening.

[00:07:56] And then there is the mission, the mission's real, you know, it's real goal, which is to go into orbit around Didymos.

[00:08:10] So it will actually orbit its target when it gets there.

[00:08:14] And by the way, the, the target date, the date for orbit insertion around Didymos is the 14th of December, 2026.

[00:08:23] That's my birthday.

[00:08:24] So that'll be a good one to celebrate.

[00:08:25] Wonderful.

[00:08:28] So, and what, you know, the questions that it will, it will really be interested in are not so much to do with Didymos, the asteroid, but its moon, Dimorphos, which is, if I remember rightly, about 170 meters across.

[00:08:42] And that's the one that the DART mission impacted in 2022.

[00:08:47] So the questions that Hera will be asking are things like, did it leave a crater or did it just sort of rebuild the whole asteroid?

[00:08:55] Because we think Didymos is a rubble pile.

[00:08:59] Sorry, we think, well, Didymos is probably a rubble pile as well, but we think Dimorphos is a rubble pile.

[00:09:05] And a little bit more about its internal structure, which you'd be able to get from the details of the orbit that Hera finally goes into.

[00:09:12] So I think it's going to be a very interesting mission that will be a really neat follow up for the DART mission.

[00:09:20] And will give us more information again on, you know, all relevant stuff if ever we are under threat from an asteroid impact because this knowledge that we really need.

[00:09:32] Yes, absolutely.

[00:09:33] Absolutely.

[00:09:34] And the good news about this mission is that it's not going to be that long down the track.

[00:09:39] Some of the missions that are headed out at the moment are just going to take so long.

[00:09:43] But this one, yeah, we're looking at just a bit over two years before we reach the destination, which in astronomical terms is a pretty quick trip.

[00:09:53] Yes, it's, if my calculations are correct, it's less than two years.

[00:09:57] Less than two years?

[00:09:59] Oh yeah, hang on.

[00:10:00] No, I beg your pardon, no, you're right.

[00:10:02] No, sorry, it's 20, my mum, 20, so you're quite right.

[00:10:04] Yes, it's a bit over two years.

[00:10:07] Exactly.

[00:10:07] Sorry, I'm miscalculating there.

[00:10:09] I'm putting my marches where my December should be.

[00:10:12] And I believe, well, I would think that Marie Claire, one of our most dedicated listeners who went to NASA for that particular impact event of the DART mission, she'll be pretty keen on what happens next.

[00:10:32] So, yeah, and I've got all my DART memorabilia here, I've got my DART t-shirt, my DART stickers are over there.

[00:10:39] And thanks to Marie Claire and hello to you.

[00:10:44] Thanks for your support.

[00:10:45] And yeah, it'll be a pretty exciting mission for all those involved, even those that were invited just to watch.

[00:10:51] Yeah, terrific.

[00:10:51] So, yeah, we will definitely be updating that when the time comes.

[00:10:55] And if you want to read the story about the course adjustment and the mission, the HERA mission, it's at the phys.org website, P-H-Y-S.

[00:11:07] Now, you're with Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson.

[00:11:09] This is Space Nuts.

[00:11:15] Space Nuts.

[00:11:17] Now, we've got a couple of light stories.

[00:11:19] They're either light stories or light stories, depending on which way you want to look at it.

[00:11:24] This first story, Fred, brings us back to our old favourite topic, black holes.

[00:11:31] But I found this story interesting because it really explains well how light is affected by gravity, particularly the gravitational effect of black holes in space,

[00:11:42] and how we can witness events more than once because of this.

[00:11:47] We've talked about that before, and they refer to them as light echoes, do they not?

[00:11:53] Yeah, they do.

[00:11:54] And light echoes are sort of a broad topic in astronomy.

[00:12:00] We've got a situation where, because of the finite speed of light, you can sometimes see the same event twice.

[00:12:10] Perhaps the classic one is, and the one that's easiest to get your head around, is if you have a supernova explosion, a star explodes,

[00:12:18] and you get the direct beam of light that comes to us that tells the story of the explosion.

[00:12:24] But sometimes you get reflections off dust clouds, which is quite often a long way away from the supernova explosion,

[00:12:31] so that the light takes a dogleg path, and eventually we see it again.

[00:12:36] And that's actually one of the ways why we can sometimes see supernovae, which exploded in historical times.

[00:12:45] The one that I like is Kepler supernova, which took place in 1604, and we can still see it because of a light echo.

[00:12:53] So you can analyse a lot of equipment to analyse the light.

[00:12:57] This is something a little bit different.

[00:12:58] I'm going to pause for a minute, Andrew, because there's a gentleman with what I would call a strimmer,

[00:13:05] and you'd call something else, is doing the grass out the back of our house.

[00:13:10] Are you getting any noise interference there?

[00:13:12] Just a little bit. It's not too bad.

[00:13:14] Okay, I'll keep going then. I'll keep doing it.

[00:13:17] So with the black hole story, it's not about reflections from dust clouds.

[00:13:23] It's about refraction, about the light being bent by gravity around the black hole.

[00:13:33] So the intense gravitational field of a black hole pulls light around it,

[00:13:40] and it will either deflect it slightly, or depending on where the light is emitted,

[00:13:47] or it can be something that goes all the way round.

[00:13:51] And in fact, it can go all the way round more than once.

[00:13:54] And so the paper that we're talking about, which is, I'm looking at the original paper here in Astrophysical Journal Letters,

[00:14:01] is called Measuring Black Hole Light Echos with Very Long Baseline Interferometry.

[00:14:06] And it's by a group of scientists who are all in the US,

[00:14:12] at institutions with very, very prestigious names,

[00:14:16] like the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, which I think was where Einstein worked,

[00:14:22] at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, all of these places.

[00:14:29] And so this is something, you know, it's work of a very high quality.

[00:14:34] What these authors are suggesting is that if you have, so think of a black hole,

[00:14:41] around it it's got the accretion disk, the disk of material that is swirling around the black hole,

[00:14:47] some of which is actually going to disappear inside it,

[00:14:50] and some of it will be squirted upwards along the relativistic jets.

[00:14:55] Think of that accretion disk.

[00:14:57] That's got stuff in it that's swirling together and, you know,

[00:15:02] just basically the energies that are involved as such that you get x-rays and radio waves coming from that accretion disk.

[00:15:09] Now, if you imagine, you know, a particularly big lump of something in there,

[00:15:14] that it's another particularly big lump in that disk,

[00:15:16] you're going to get a flash, basically an explosive event which will release radiation.

[00:15:23] And the point that these authors make is that that radiation, yes, may take a direct path towards the Earth,

[00:15:32] but it could also go around the black hole and it could go around multiple times.

[00:15:38] So you might get an explosion that we see and then a number of light echoes that follow it

[00:15:45] at sort of pretty regular intervals as the light travels around the black hole.

[00:15:51] And so what they've suggested is that if you can analyse that and look at it in detail with radio telescopes,

[00:15:59] we're talking about here because that's the wave band that's of interest in this,

[00:16:03] then that might tell you something about the details of the accretion disk

[00:16:06] and the events that are taking place inside it.

[00:16:09] If you could see, you know, whereabouts these light echoes seem to come from and things of that sort.

[00:16:13] And what they're suggesting is that you could do it with this technique called very long baseline interferometry or VLBI,

[00:16:21] which is beloved of radio astronomers.

[00:16:23] And what you do is you have dishes separated by large distances

[00:16:28] and you can sort of correlate the signals that each gets because they're slightly different,

[00:16:35] you know, because of the separation of them.

[00:16:38] And that lets you essentially see very, very fine detail.

[00:16:43] It's actually how the Event Horizon Telescope works,

[00:16:45] the thing that has indeed mapped the event horizon of several supermassive black holes.

[00:16:51] So the bottom line is you can't actually do it with very long baseline interferometry on Earth.

[00:17:01] You need to put one of your, you can do it with one telescope on Earth,

[00:17:07] but you need to put one of them in orbit around the Earth or at least into space.

[00:17:15] You need the distances that, you know, that you get from putting the antennas that are going to provide the baseline.

[00:17:24] You need to put them very, very far apart.

[00:17:28] And so it's a paper that suggests how you might do that.

[00:17:36] I've just got the abstract from the paper in front of me.

[00:17:40] What they say is,

[00:17:42] our results suggest that detecting echoes may be achievable through interferometric observations

[00:17:48] with a modest space-based, very long baseline interferometry mission.

[00:17:52] The modest is a word that you can put numbers on,

[00:17:56] and I think the numbers are later in the article.

[00:17:58] I haven't actually read the paper itself, but in the abstract,

[00:18:03] they certainly talk about the kinds of effects that you might see

[00:18:07] and what you might need to build in order to do that.

[00:18:11] Now, interferometers in space are not a new suggestion.

[00:18:15] So it may well be...

[00:18:17] Some of our audience have suggested it.

[00:18:19] They have indeed.

[00:18:20] That's right.

[00:18:21] They have indeed.

[00:18:22] We might find that this is something that...

[00:18:26] Almost that the hardware already exists,

[00:18:32] because there are radio telescopes in space already.

[00:18:35] But anyway, they're suggesting...

[00:18:37] They're not really going into detail of how you might do it,

[00:18:40] but they're suggesting that it will, in fact, be possible.

[00:18:43] Okay.

[00:18:44] So we are not there yet,

[00:18:47] but they've certainly looked at ways that they might be able to do this.

[00:18:51] But, you know, through publishing this paper,

[00:18:54] they've gone public on it.

[00:18:56] That's exactly right, yeah.

[00:18:58] What they concentrate on in the paper

[00:19:01] is the details of this, you know,

[00:19:04] this multiple apparition of flashes of light

[00:19:08] and the actual...

[00:19:11] How the gravity of the black hole actually steers the light around

[00:19:15] and just the details of what the black hole might do to the light.

[00:19:19] And by light, I'm talking really here about radio radiation

[00:19:22] and suggesting that you might need bigger tackle

[00:19:26] than we've got already in order to measure it.

[00:19:29] Yeah.

[00:19:30] What fascinated me in the story is how, you know,

[00:19:33] you talk about an event collision that creates a flash

[00:19:37] and that light comes straight towards us

[00:19:39] and we see that event.

[00:19:40] But the light can also be disrupted

[00:19:43] by the gravity of the black hole

[00:19:45] and do a few laps around the black hole

[00:19:48] before it gets headed in our direction.

[00:19:52] So what sort of a time difference would it make

[00:19:54] between us seeing the real event and then the echo?

[00:19:58] Well, they'd be very small, wouldn't they?

[00:20:00] It's going to depend on the size of the black hole.

[00:20:04] You know, some...

[00:20:05] I think they're talking about supermassive black holes

[00:20:07] and in fact, the article talks about...

[00:20:10] We explore the viability of our method using...

[00:20:15] I love this.

[00:20:15] Using numerical general relativistic magnetohydrodynamic simulations.

[00:20:20] There you are.

[00:20:22] Of a near face on accretion system

[00:20:24] scaled to M87-like parameters.

[00:20:27] M87 being the galaxy of which we've imaged

[00:20:30] the supermassive black hole center.

[00:20:32] And so you're talking there about an event horizon

[00:20:36] that is solar system sized

[00:20:38] or much bigger than the solar system.

[00:20:40] So you're talking about possibly hours to days of delay

[00:20:43] in the mass difference.

[00:20:46] Still, that's a short time frame

[00:20:48] in terms of being able to collect data.

[00:20:51] So that's...

[00:20:52] You know, it makes it even more...

[00:20:56] Gee, they're doing a good job in your backyard

[00:20:58] by the sound of it.

[00:20:58] Yeah, I'm wondering what I'm going to have to move,

[00:21:00] Andrew, to find quite a place to do this.

[00:21:04] So let's...

[00:21:07] Let's move house.

[00:21:09] And we'll keep going.

[00:21:12] We'll keep talking.

[00:21:13] But I'm going to take you with me

[00:21:15] and find a quieter part that helps to do this.

[00:21:21] This doesn't happen often, but...

[00:21:23] No, it's all about...

[00:21:25] Yeah, no, that's right.

[00:21:27] That's a deep...

[00:21:28] I'm just going to wander around this way

[00:21:30] because I think it'll be quieter

[00:21:32] right at the other end of the house.

[00:21:35] Right.

[00:21:35] Just depends whether or not you lose your Wi-Fi connection

[00:21:39] in the process.

[00:21:40] Shouldn't you?

[00:21:40] Hopefully.

[00:21:41] Hopefully it should be all right.

[00:21:42] So I'm now in Marnie's study.

[00:21:45] We're currently taking service as a bedroom

[00:21:49] because we've got lots of visitors coming.

[00:21:52] So here we are.

[00:21:53] Oh, very nice.

[00:21:54] Oh, nice view.

[00:21:56] Beautiful.

[00:21:59] Excellent.

[00:22:01] Ah, very good.

[00:22:02] A bit tired.

[00:22:03] Look at that.

[00:22:04] Completely silent.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:05] Yeah, until I come around the corner and do that bit.

[00:22:09] That's right.

[00:22:10] Yes.

[00:22:11] But I think we've pretty well wrapped up that story.

[00:22:12] So if you are interested in reading it,

[00:22:16] it's in universetoday.com

[00:22:18] where you can read the whole thing,

[00:22:20] measuring black hole light echoes

[00:22:22] with very long baseline interferometry

[00:22:24] in the Astrophysical Journal letters.

[00:22:28] This is Space Nuts.

[00:22:30] Andrew Dunkley with Professor Fred Watson.

[00:22:36] Space Nuts.

[00:22:38] Finally, Fred, we continue our look at light,

[00:22:41] but this is light of a very different ilk,

[00:22:45] I suppose you could say,

[00:22:46] because it looks at the relationship

[00:22:49] between light and humans

[00:22:50] and how even since ancient times,

[00:22:53] we've used light for medical purposes,

[00:22:58] which is fascinating.

[00:23:00] And this dates back a long, long time.

[00:23:03] It does indeed.

[00:23:04] That's right.

[00:23:05] And, you know, I guess we are,

[00:23:09] I think, as you said,

[00:23:11] you've almost experienced this yourself.

[00:23:14] We all know that the sun

[00:23:15] is the principal source of heat and light

[00:23:18] for the planet.

[00:23:19] It's what allows life to evolve.

[00:23:21] It's where the energy comes from.

[00:23:22] And so it's not really surprising

[00:23:25] that our forebears of various different ilks

[00:23:29] should have had a special place

[00:23:34] for light in their understanding.

[00:23:38] And you've only to think of some of the civilizations

[00:23:40] in South America,

[00:23:41] which, you know,

[00:23:42] which were based on sun worship.

[00:23:44] I've talked about some of those.

[00:23:47] The reason why we're talking about this

[00:23:49] is a very, very nice conversation article

[00:23:53] that has recently been issued

[00:23:56] the 7th of November,

[00:23:58] just a few days ago,

[00:23:59] written by Philippa Marta,

[00:24:01] who is a lecturer in pharmacology,

[00:24:05] women's health,

[00:24:06] at the School of Biomedical Sciences

[00:24:08] in the University of Western Australia.

[00:24:11] And Philippa's written a lovely,

[00:24:13] a lovely kind of overview

[00:24:15] of the part of light

[00:24:18] in making us better.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:21] And her article is

[00:24:23] Part Science, Part Magic,

[00:24:25] An Illuminating History of Healing with Light.

[00:24:27] It's a very nice title there.

[00:24:29] And it, you know,

[00:24:31] it goes,

[00:24:31] it starts off with

[00:24:33] some of the most ancient religions

[00:24:35] on the planet,

[00:24:36] which involves sun worship

[00:24:37] and takes it from there.

[00:24:41] Because often these early religions

[00:24:43] were tied up with healing.

[00:24:45] And just reading from Philippa's article,

[00:24:50] while, sorry,

[00:24:51] sick people

[00:24:52] would turn to the shaman

[00:24:53] or priest

[00:24:54] or priestess

[00:24:55] for help.

[00:24:57] And that's,

[00:24:59] you know,

[00:24:59] it's a natural thing to do

[00:25:01] when you kind of feel better

[00:25:03] when you're in sunlight.

[00:25:04] And so the article traces,

[00:25:07] you know,

[00:25:07] traces that history

[00:25:08] right through to

[00:25:10] more modern times.

[00:25:12] And,

[00:25:14] you know,

[00:25:15] the fact that we still use

[00:25:17] phototherapy

[00:25:18] with blue lights

[00:25:19] used to treat

[00:25:21] newborn babies

[00:25:21] with jaundice in hospital,

[00:25:23] that sort of thing.

[00:25:24] Really interesting,

[00:25:25] a really interesting story

[00:25:26] with a very comprehensive look

[00:25:28] at sunlight

[00:25:29] and its place

[00:25:30] in our well-being.

[00:25:32] Yes,

[00:25:33] and when you,

[00:25:34] when you talk about

[00:25:35] the ancient cultures

[00:25:36] that used to use it

[00:25:39] and papers were actually

[00:25:40] written about it

[00:25:41] dating back

[00:25:42] to 1500 BCE

[00:25:44] in Egypt,

[00:25:45] Egyptian

[00:25:46] medical scrolls

[00:25:48] have been discovered

[00:25:50] that talk about

[00:25:51] using sunlight

[00:25:53] mixed with other things

[00:25:55] to try and

[00:25:57] overcome certain,

[00:26:00] I don't know,

[00:26:01] frailties,

[00:26:02] illnesses,

[00:26:03] afflictions,

[00:26:04] whatever you want

[00:26:05] to call them.

[00:26:06] But even as simple

[00:26:08] as the warmth

[00:26:09] of the sun

[00:26:10] being used to heal,

[00:26:11] just simply

[00:26:12] getting warmer.

[00:26:14] And

[00:26:15] you probably could read

[00:26:17] some of this stuff

[00:26:17] and say,

[00:26:18] oh, look,

[00:26:18] it's, you know,

[00:26:19] it's all hogwash.

[00:26:20] They were obviously just,

[00:26:21] you know,

[00:26:21] they didn't know much

[00:26:22] about medicine,

[00:26:23] so they came up

[00:26:24] with these lame brain ideas.

[00:26:26] But even today,

[00:26:28] light is used

[00:26:30] in medicine

[00:26:30] and there are

[00:26:32] great examples of it.

[00:26:34] It doesn't so much

[00:26:35] happen in Australia,

[00:26:36] but there are parts

[00:26:37] of the world

[00:26:37] that get very

[00:26:39] dark and dreary

[00:26:40] in winter

[00:26:42] and you can

[00:26:44] overcome that

[00:26:44] with certain forms

[00:26:46] of light.

[00:26:46] You can cure jet lag

[00:26:48] with light.

[00:26:50] You can,

[00:26:51] you know,

[00:26:52] different kinds of light

[00:26:53] for different kinds

[00:26:54] of circumstances.

[00:26:55] White or blue light,

[00:26:57] when you expose

[00:26:58] people to that,

[00:26:59] it can overcome

[00:27:00] forms of depression

[00:27:01] in some cases.

[00:27:03] And you can use

[00:27:05] ultraviolet light

[00:27:06] to treat skin conditions.

[00:27:08] the article refers

[00:27:09] to that.

[00:27:10] It is quite

[00:27:12] a natural

[00:27:13] thing

[00:27:14] because we've

[00:27:15] grown up

[00:27:16] and adapted

[00:27:16] to sunlight

[00:27:18] as a species

[00:27:18] on this planet

[00:27:20] over tens

[00:27:20] of thousands

[00:27:21] of years.

[00:27:22] So it makes sense.

[00:27:24] And some

[00:27:25] of the interesting

[00:27:25] people that have

[00:27:26] talked about light

[00:27:28] have been brought

[00:27:30] up in this article.

[00:27:32] One of them

[00:27:32] was Florence Nightingale

[00:27:34] who actually wrote

[00:27:35] a,

[00:27:36] I think,

[00:27:37] did she write

[00:27:37] a book about it?

[00:27:39] Yeah,

[00:27:39] she wrote a book

[00:27:40] called Notes

[00:27:41] on Nursing

[00:27:42] and was a strong

[00:27:43] believer in the

[00:27:44] power of sunlight.

[00:27:45] So this is quite

[00:27:47] incredible stuff.

[00:27:50] And,

[00:27:51] sorry,

[00:27:52] go on.

[00:27:53] No,

[00:27:53] go ahead.

[00:27:53] Go ahead,

[00:27:54] Andrew.

[00:27:54] That's fine.

[00:27:55] Well,

[00:27:55] I was going to

[00:27:56] just sort of

[00:27:57] put myself out

[00:27:58] there because

[00:27:59] even though

[00:28:00] it's not

[00:28:01] directly

[00:28:02] sunlight

[00:28:03] related,

[00:28:05] we still

[00:28:06] use

[00:28:08] things that

[00:28:09] are created

[00:28:09] in the light

[00:28:10] spectrum

[00:28:11] to treat

[00:28:11] serious

[00:28:12] illnesses.

[00:28:14] And

[00:28:14] you look

[00:28:16] at

[00:28:17] radiation

[00:28:18] therapy

[00:28:18] for cancer,

[00:28:19] well,

[00:28:20] the rays

[00:28:21] that are

[00:28:21] produced

[00:28:21] by radiation

[00:28:22] therapy

[00:28:24] type machines

[00:28:24] are in the

[00:28:25] light spectrum.

[00:28:26] So you could

[00:28:26] argue that

[00:28:27] we're still

[00:28:28] to this day

[00:28:29] in modern

[00:28:29] medicine

[00:28:30] using light.

[00:28:32] And you

[00:28:33] said earlier,

[00:28:34] Fred,

[00:28:35] that I have

[00:28:36] some experience

[00:28:36] with that

[00:28:37] and a few

[00:28:37] people that

[00:28:39] listen to the

[00:28:39] show already

[00:28:40] know this,

[00:28:41] but I

[00:28:42] have been

[00:28:43] for the last

[00:28:45] two and a

[00:28:46] bit years

[00:28:46] been dealing

[00:28:47] with a

[00:28:47] cancer diagnosis

[00:28:49] and over the

[00:28:50] last five

[00:28:50] weeks I've

[00:28:51] been receiving

[00:28:52] radiation

[00:28:52] therapy

[00:28:53] for

[00:28:55] remnant

[00:28:55] cells

[00:28:57] caused by

[00:28:58] prostate

[00:28:58] cancer.

[00:28:59] And

[00:29:00] hopefully

[00:29:00] the

[00:29:01] therapy

[00:29:01] will be

[00:29:02] successful

[00:29:02] and eradicate

[00:29:03] them.

[00:29:03] So

[00:29:05] that's

[00:29:05] my

[00:29:06] personal

[00:29:07] experience

[00:29:07] with,

[00:29:08] if you

[00:29:08] want to

[00:29:08] call it

[00:29:09] light

[00:29:09] therapy.

[00:29:11] It's

[00:29:11] not

[00:29:12] use of

[00:29:13] sunlight.

[00:29:13] These

[00:29:13] in my

[00:29:14] case

[00:29:15] would,

[00:29:16] I've

[00:29:16] done some

[00:29:16] research

[00:29:17] because I

[00:29:17] need to

[00:29:18] know these

[00:29:18] things for

[00:29:18] it.

[00:29:19] But it's

[00:29:21] in my

[00:29:22] case,

[00:29:23] the form

[00:29:23] of therapy

[00:29:24] I'm

[00:29:24] receiving

[00:29:24] is

[00:29:25] actually

[00:29:25] using

[00:29:26] x-rays

[00:29:27] to attack

[00:29:28] the prostate

[00:29:28] cancer

[00:29:29] cells.

[00:29:30] And

[00:29:31] according to

[00:29:32] my oncologist,

[00:29:33] I'm a

[00:29:33] very,

[00:29:34] very good

[00:29:34] candidate for

[00:29:35] this kind

[00:29:35] of therapy.

[00:29:35] And it

[00:29:37] started off

[00:29:38] with an

[00:29:38] injection in

[00:29:39] the bum,

[00:29:40] which was

[00:29:41] a hormone

[00:29:43] suppressant to

[00:29:44] stop

[00:29:44] testosterone,

[00:29:46] which is what

[00:29:46] prostate cancer

[00:29:47] feeds on.

[00:29:48] And then

[00:29:49] that was

[00:29:50] three months

[00:29:51] ago.

[00:29:51] And then I

[00:29:52] started my

[00:29:52] radiotherapy

[00:29:53] five weeks

[00:29:54] ago,

[00:29:54] just after

[00:29:55] we got

[00:29:55] back from

[00:29:56] Turkey.

[00:29:57] And that

[00:29:59] finishes at

[00:30:00] the time of

[00:30:01] this recording

[00:30:01] tomorrow as

[00:30:03] my last

[00:30:03] dose.

[00:30:05] And then

[00:30:06] on Thursday

[00:30:07] I get another

[00:30:07] hormone shot

[00:30:08] to stop

[00:30:10] the testosterone

[00:30:10] from recharging

[00:30:12] so that the

[00:30:13] radiation therapy

[00:30:14] has got the

[00:30:15] best possible

[00:30:15] chance of

[00:30:16] killing off the

[00:30:17] cancer cells.

[00:30:19] So,

[00:30:19] yeah,

[00:30:20] that's been my

[00:30:20] life for the

[00:30:21] last five

[00:30:22] weeks or so.

[00:30:23] And basically

[00:30:25] I've been dealing

[00:30:26] with this for

[00:30:27] a bit over

[00:30:29] two years.

[00:30:30] So at the

[00:30:31] beginning of last

[00:30:32] year I had the

[00:30:32] prostate removed

[00:30:33] but the

[00:30:34] pathology showed

[00:30:35] that the

[00:30:35] cancer had

[00:30:36] broken through

[00:30:37] the prostate

[00:30:39] cell,

[00:30:39] prostate

[00:30:43] wall

[00:30:43] and got into

[00:30:45] a thing called

[00:30:46] the seminal

[00:30:46] vesicle.

[00:30:47] And this

[00:30:48] was probably

[00:30:49] the unlucky

[00:30:49] bit.

[00:30:50] When they

[00:30:50] took the

[00:30:51] prostate out

[00:30:51] they severed

[00:30:53] the seminal

[00:30:53] vesicle.

[00:30:54] So two

[00:30:55] millimetres of

[00:30:56] cancer cells

[00:30:58] were retained

[00:30:59] in my body

[00:30:59] and that's

[00:31:00] where it's

[00:31:00] all sort

[00:31:01] of come

[00:31:02] from.

[00:31:02] So,

[00:31:03] yeah,

[00:31:04] that sounds

[00:31:05] shocking.

[00:31:05] It sounds

[00:31:06] horrible.

[00:31:06] It sounds

[00:31:06] scary and I

[00:31:07] suppose it is

[00:31:08] to a certain

[00:31:08] degree but I'm

[00:31:09] dealing with

[00:31:10] it and my

[00:31:10] prognosis is

[00:31:11] very good.

[00:31:13] Obviously they

[00:31:14] can't give me

[00:31:15] absolute

[00:31:15] guarantees but

[00:31:16] this therapy

[00:31:17] is the most

[00:31:17] successful

[00:31:18] available today

[00:31:19] so fingers

[00:31:21] crossed.

[00:31:22] But yeah,

[00:31:23] light therapy

[00:31:24] is a thing.

[00:31:24] Is a thing.

[00:31:26] So you're

[00:31:27] right,

[00:31:28] the x-rays

[00:31:28] that you use

[00:31:29] are part of

[00:31:29] the electromagnetic

[00:31:30] spectrum and

[00:31:31] so it's just

[00:31:32] light radiation

[00:31:33] with very short

[00:31:33] wavelengths.

[00:31:34] things.

[00:31:35] And,

[00:31:36] you know,

[00:31:36] I think it's

[00:31:38] all credit to

[00:31:40] you,

[00:31:40] Andrew,

[00:31:40] for what

[00:31:41] you're going

[00:31:41] through at

[00:31:42] the moment

[00:31:42] and for

[00:31:44] opening up

[00:31:45] to all

[00:31:47] of us

[00:31:48] space nut

[00:31:48] cases

[00:31:49] who are

[00:31:50] all very

[00:31:51] much interested

[00:31:52] in your

[00:31:53] well-being.

[00:31:54] Yeah,

[00:31:55] I've received

[00:31:56] some nice

[00:31:57] messages.

[00:31:57] I went

[00:31:57] public

[00:31:58] through the

[00:31:59] Cancer Council

[00:32:00] New South

[00:32:00] Wales because

[00:32:01] I get a

[00:32:03] regular newsletter

[00:32:04] from them

[00:32:04] and they

[00:32:05] put an

[00:32:05] appeal out

[00:32:06] for anyone

[00:32:06] who might

[00:32:07] be willing

[00:32:07] to tell

[00:32:07] their story

[00:32:08] in the

[00:32:09] hope that

[00:32:09] it will

[00:32:10] help others.

[00:32:10] So I,

[00:32:11] you know,

[00:32:11] with my

[00:32:11] radio background

[00:32:12] felt that

[00:32:13] was probably

[00:32:13] something

[00:32:14] appropriate

[00:32:15] and I

[00:32:16] will give

[00:32:17] the same

[00:32:17] message

[00:32:18] right now.

[00:32:18] If you're

[00:32:19] a man

[00:32:19] 50 or

[00:32:20] over,

[00:32:21] you need

[00:32:22] to go

[00:32:22] to the

[00:32:23] doctor

[00:32:23] and have

[00:32:23] a PSA

[00:32:24] check

[00:32:24] and get

[00:32:25] them to

[00:32:25] check

[00:32:26] your heart,

[00:32:27] your diabetes

[00:32:28] or blood

[00:32:29] sugar levels

[00:32:30] and your

[00:32:30] cholesterol

[00:32:31] all at the

[00:32:31] same time

[00:32:32] to make

[00:32:32] sure you're

[00:32:33] okay.

[00:32:34] Um,

[00:32:35] particularly

[00:32:35] PSA levels

[00:32:36] because if

[00:32:37] they start

[00:32:37] to climb

[00:32:38] they can

[00:32:38] look innocent

[00:32:39] enough and

[00:32:40] then all of

[00:32:40] a sudden

[00:32:40] they will

[00:32:41] balloon and

[00:32:42] that's what

[00:32:42] happened to

[00:32:43] me.

[00:32:43] I went

[00:32:43] from a

[00:32:44] 2.1

[00:32:45] PSA

[00:32:46] level to

[00:32:46] a 7.8

[00:32:47] in 22

[00:32:48] months and

[00:32:49] that's

[00:32:49] when they

[00:32:50] knew something

[00:32:50] was

[00:32:50] dreadfully

[00:32:51] wrong.

[00:32:53] So all

[00:32:54] it takes

[00:32:54] is an

[00:32:54] annual

[00:32:55] checkup

[00:32:55] at your

[00:32:56] local

[00:32:56] doctor

[00:32:57] just to

[00:32:58] see if

[00:32:58] everything's

[00:32:59] okay and

[00:33:00] if you do

[00:33:01] that and

[00:33:02] you do

[00:33:02] develop

[00:33:03] prostate

[00:33:03] cancer,

[00:33:04] chances are

[00:33:05] they'll catch

[00:33:05] it super

[00:33:06] early and

[00:33:06] you won't

[00:33:07] end up

[00:33:07] where I

[00:33:08] am.

[00:33:10] So don't

[00:33:11] dilly-dally.

[00:33:11] It's not

[00:33:12] going to hurt

[00:33:12] you.

[00:33:12] Just to go

[00:33:13] and get a

[00:33:13] quick blood

[00:33:14] test and

[00:33:14] sort it

[00:33:15] all out.

[00:33:15] That's my

[00:33:15] message to

[00:33:16] any man

[00:33:17] or someone

[00:33:18] you know

[00:33:18] of the

[00:33:19] male persuasion

[00:33:20] 50 or

[00:33:21] over.

[00:33:22] And I

[00:33:23] would take

[00:33:23] that back

[00:33:24] to 40

[00:33:24] plus if

[00:33:24] there's a

[00:33:25] family history.

[00:33:26] There you

[00:33:26] go.

[00:33:27] All right.

[00:33:28] I've done

[00:33:28] my job.

[00:33:30] Well done.

[00:33:32] Yeah.

[00:33:33] It's very

[00:33:34] good to hear.

[00:33:36] Yes.

[00:33:37] I think

[00:33:37] it's an

[00:33:37] important

[00:33:38] message.

[00:33:39] Indeed it

[00:33:40] is.

[00:33:41] And it's

[00:33:42] all about

[00:33:42] light as

[00:33:42] you say.

[00:33:43] It's all

[00:33:43] about light.

[00:33:44] Yes it

[00:33:44] is.

[00:33:44] And it's

[00:33:45] a great

[00:33:45] story.

[00:33:46] Read it.

[00:33:46] It's at

[00:33:47] theconversation.com

[00:33:48] and it's

[00:33:50] a really

[00:33:51] interesting

[00:33:52] story.

[00:33:52] Part

[00:33:53] science,

[00:33:53] part magic

[00:33:55] and illuminating

[00:33:56] history of

[00:33:57] healing with

[00:33:57] light.

[00:33:58] It's a

[00:33:58] terrific

[00:33:59] story.

[00:33:59] Well worth

[00:34:00] reading.

[00:34:01] And we

[00:34:02] might just

[00:34:03] end it

[00:34:03] there.

[00:34:03] Fred,

[00:34:04] thank you

[00:34:04] so much.

[00:34:06] It's a

[00:34:06] pleasure

[00:34:07] Andrew.

[00:34:09] It's a

[00:34:10] temporary

[00:34:10] ending of

[00:34:10] course because

[00:34:11] we'll be

[00:34:11] coming back

[00:34:12] again.

[00:34:13] Yeah,

[00:34:14] yeah.

[00:34:14] I'm not

[00:34:15] dropping off

[00:34:16] there.

[00:34:16] I'm not

[00:34:17] dropping

[00:34:17] out of the

[00:34:17] Twiggins

[00:34:17] hurry.

[00:34:18] Believe me.

[00:34:19] When you

[00:34:20] said

[00:34:20] it there,

[00:34:21] it did

[00:34:22] sound a

[00:34:22] bit

[00:34:22] final.

[00:34:24] Sorry about

[00:34:25] that.

[00:34:26] No,

[00:34:26] it's all

[00:34:26] good.

[00:34:28] Yeah,

[00:34:29] it's all

[00:34:29] right.

[00:34:29] See you

[00:34:30] next time.

[00:34:31] Indeed.

[00:34:32] Yes,

[00:34:32] we've got

[00:34:32] some questions

[00:34:33] to sort

[00:34:33] out in

[00:34:33] our next

[00:34:34] episode,

[00:34:34] so I do

[00:34:35] want to

[00:34:35] be around

[00:34:35] for that.

[00:34:36] Thank

[00:34:36] you,

[00:34:37] Fred.

[00:34:37] See you

[00:34:37] soon.

[00:34:38] Professor

[00:34:38] Fred Watson,

[00:34:40] astronomer

[00:34:40] at large,

[00:34:40] and thanks

[00:34:41] to Hugh

[00:34:41] in the

[00:34:42] studio for

[00:34:44] not sending

[00:34:45] me any

[00:34:45] sick jokes

[00:34:46] this week.

[00:34:47] He does

[00:34:47] it all

[00:34:48] the time

[00:34:48] and some

[00:34:49] of them

[00:34:49] are horrible.

[00:34:50] And from

[00:34:50] me,

[00:34:50] Andrew

[00:34:51] Dunkley,

[00:34:51] thanks for

[00:34:51] your company.

[00:34:52] Catch you

[00:34:52] on the

[00:34:53] very next

[00:34:53] episode,

[00:34:53] guaranteed,

[00:34:54] on Space

[00:34:55] Nuts.

[00:34:56] Bye-bye.

[00:34:56] Space

[00:34:57] Nuts.

[00:34:57] You'll be

[00:34:58] listening to

[00:34:58] the Space

[00:34:59] Nuts

[00:34:59] Podcast.

[00:35:02] Available

[00:35:02] at Apple

[00:35:03] Podcasts,

[00:35:04] Spotify,

[00:35:04] iHeartRadio,

[00:35:06] or your

[00:35:06] favourite

[00:35:07] podcast player.

[00:35:08] You can

[00:35:08] also stream

[00:35:09] on demand

[00:35:09] at

[00:35:10] bytes.com.

[00:35:11] This has

[00:35:12] been another

[00:35:12] quality podcast

[00:35:13] production

[00:35:14] from

[00:35:14] bytes.com.