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Black Holes, Time Dimensions, and the Future of Life on Mars
In this thought-provoking episode of Space Nuts, host Andrew Dunkley and the ever-insightful Professor Fred Watson tackle a variety of intriguing questions from listeners. From the mysteries of black holes to the complex nature of time and the potential for life on Mars, this episode promises to stimulate your cosmic curiosity.
Episode Highlights:
- Black Holes and Time: Andrew and Fred Watson delve into a listener's question about black holes and the nature of time as one approaches the event horizon. Can time really reverse, or does it simply stop? The duo explores these mind-bending concepts and the implications of black hole physics.
- The Nature of Time: A fascinating discussion arises from a question about whether time can be considered a true dimension. Andrew and Fred Watson unpack the complexities of time as a dimension, including its unique properties compared to spatial dimensions and how it affects our understanding of the universe.
- Future Habitats on Mars: The conversation shifts to the potential for life on Mars and the impact of Milankovitch cycles on the planet's climate. Can Mars become a habitable world again, and what does that mean for the future of life in our solar system? The duo examines the possibilities and the ongoing search for extraterrestrial life.
- Listener Ideas and Cosmic Creativity: Andrew shares an exciting book premise suggested by a listener, exploring the idea of Martian microbes merging with human cells. This sparks a conversation about the implications of such a scenario and the creative possibilities it presents.
For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website. Follow us on social media at SpaceNutsPod on Facebook, X, YouTube Music, Tumblr, Instagram, and TikTok. We love engaging with our community, so be sure to drop us a message or comment on your favourite platform.
If you’d like to help support Space Nuts and join our growing family of insiders for commercial-free episodes and more, visit spacenutspodcast.com/about
Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
(00:00) Welcome to Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson Watson
(01:20) Discussion on black holes and the nature of time
(15:00) Exploring the potential for life on Mars and Milankovitch cycles
(25:30) Listener Ash ideas and cosmic creativity
For commercial-free versions of Space Nuts, join us on Patreon, Supercast, Apple Podcasts, or become a supporter here: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-astronomy-insights-cosmic-discoveries--2631155/support.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Andrew Dunkley here and this is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 Space Nuts, a Q and A edition. Thanks for
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 joining us. Coming up we're going to oh
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 gosh, talk about something never before
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 spoken of on Space Nuts. A black
00:00:13 --> 00:00:15 hole. A little bit of a different twist on
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 this one though. We're also going to look at
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 the. Dimension of time, our obsession
00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 with life, the malinkov cycles
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 of Mars and Paddy's got an idea for
00:00:25 --> 00:00:28 me to write a book. That's all coming up
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 on this edition of space nuts.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 10, 9. Ignition
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 report it feels good.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 Andrew Dunkley: And with all the answers is Professor
00:00:49 --> 00:00:50 Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large.
00:00:50 --> 00:00:51 Hello friend.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 Professor Fred Watson: Hello Andrew. It's not all the answers but
00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 well, two or three of them, that's all
00:00:58 --> 00:00:58 we need.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 Andrew Dunkley: I thought I'd show you my background today.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I was to ask you about that.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 Andrew Dunkley: All these rockets launching into space.
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 That's from the sphere in Las Vegas.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:10 I took that photo when we went to a show
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 there called Postcard From Earth.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 And the basis of the story
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 is that Earth's become uninhabitable due to
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22 global warming. So everyone basically went
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24 let's get out of Dodge. And that's the scene
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 of all the rockets taking off as humanity
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 leaves the planet. And the whole
00:01:29 --> 00:01:32 storyline basically is about people coming
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 back to visit but we can't live here anymore
00:01:34 --> 00:01:37 because we messed it up so bad. And
00:01:37 --> 00:01:39 that, yeah, so that's the launch sequence
00:01:39 --> 00:01:41 from all the humans leaving the planet after
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 we decimated it with global warming and
00:01:43 --> 00:01:46 climate change. and it's a
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 360 degree sphere in Las
00:01:49 --> 00:01:52 Vegas, which you can walk around and
00:01:52 --> 00:01:54 it has pictures on the outside, but on the
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 inside it's a visual screen that goes all
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 around you. not only is it showing you
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 pictures but you can also experience weather
00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 while you're there. So you fly over snow
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 fields and you can feel the cold and the
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 wind. you fly over an orchard in
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 California, you can smell the citrus. it's
00:02:13 --> 00:02:15 really brilliant, really amazing facility
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 that they've, they've built there and all
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 centred around science. So yeah, loved it,
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 Absolutely loved it. Notwithstanding the fact
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 the Eagles are performing there pretty much
00:02:24 --> 00:02:26 as I speak. So they do all kind of thing as
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 well. Yeah. But yeah, I like that, I like
00:02:29 --> 00:02:31 that as a backdrop. Sort of fits in with what
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 we do. Space Nuts launching rockets, that
00:02:34 --> 00:02:34 kind of thing.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 Professor Fred Watson: So the reason why Earth, is uninhabitable. Is
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 because of all these rockets leaving behind
00:02:41 --> 00:02:44 their trailer were nasty
00:02:44 --> 00:02:44 stuff.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:45 Andrew Dunkley: They dusted chemicals.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 It probably didn't help that many take.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:50 Professor Fred Watson: I don't think it would, no.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 Andrew Dunkley: Let's get down to some questions. And our
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 first one comes from Mark, Painter. this one
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 came via, Facebook. Dear Andrew and Professor
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 Fred Watson. I have a few questions that
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 puzzle me today. I'll start with, of course,
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 black holes in the movie Interstellar.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 As they get closer to the black hole, time
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 slows down relative to the outside observer.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 By extension, as we get close to the event
00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 horizon, time would stretch more and more and
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 I assume follows an exponential curve
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 to the point where time effectively stops.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:24 So then to enter the black hole, wouldn't
00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 time have to go in reverse? Could it be
00:03:27 --> 00:03:30 that all black holes are actually chunks that
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 come from the Big Bang that did
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 not, form, That did not
00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 form normal matter?
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks in advance.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41 Andrew Dunkley: We kind of talked about that in our last
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 episode. The primordial black holes. And
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 they're maybe being responsible
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 for dark matter, which Fred Watson
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 debunked pretty heavily. Yeah, there's
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 a big up. Really? No, but, So he's
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 asking about time being reversed. If you
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 entered a black hole, I know something
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 that would be reversed. Your life. But that's
00:04:05 --> 00:04:05 besides the point.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, Just. Just to, elaborate on what you
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 were just saying though, Andrew.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:15 primordial black holes may exist. We just
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 don't know. and my comment was that I didn't
00:04:17 --> 00:04:20 think they would amount to forming
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 the. The dark matter that, you know,
00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 looking for. But we do, we do know that,
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 some black holes are actually formed
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 from supernova explosions. The debris left
00:04:32 --> 00:04:35 over by supernova. The collapse of the core
00:04:35 --> 00:04:37 of a star that has sufficient mass,
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 up to 22. Something like 22
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 solar masses. So, the answer to the
00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 last bit of Mark's question there. Could it
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 be that all the black holes are actually
00:04:47 --> 00:04:49 chunks that came from the Big Bang that did
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 not form normal matter? And, some of
00:04:52 --> 00:04:55 them probably did, the primordial ones. But,
00:04:55 --> 00:04:58 some also didn't. We know that black
00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 holes are formed by. By stars getting to the
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 ends of their lives. And regarding time
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 reversal, Mark is absolutely right that
00:05:06 --> 00:05:09 as you, To an outside observer, the
00:05:09 --> 00:05:11 closer you get to the event horizon,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 the, More
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 your time to the outside observer slows down,
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 if I can put it that way. And when you cross
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 the event horizon, basically time stops. So
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 your person would be frozen, on the event
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 horizon. Although they've actually fallen
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 into it. They don't see the event horizon
00:05:30 --> 00:05:32 because that's ah, basically an optical
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 illusion. It's the point at which light
00:05:35 --> 00:05:36 cannot escape.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 Andrew Dunkley: We thought this, some
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 episodes back about how if you were to
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 cross the threshold, like, oh, space and
00:05:44 --> 00:05:45 time would flip.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, they do. that's. As you
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 get close to it, it's exactly right. The
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 dimensions flip. And we had quite a nice
00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 explanation as to why that would be.
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 Andrew Dunkley: Which great YouTube video on it, I think.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:00 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that was it. There was a YouTube video.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 Very nicely put. very nicely put.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 Why the. Effectively space and time
00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 flip. and that in a way sort
00:06:09 --> 00:06:12 of illuminates Mark's question as
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 well. The, the time
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 doesn't reverse for you. time basically
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 disappears along with you
00:06:20 --> 00:06:22 and you get swallowed into the, into the
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 black hole from your perspective. and
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 you know, it's no good thinking about whether
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 to an outside observer time might reverse
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 because the outside observer can't see you
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 because you're, by that time you're inside
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 the event horizon. So nobody's going to see
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 you, Nobody will feel your pain.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:41 Andrew Dunkley: No, no.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 Andrew Dunkley: But you'll be covered in spaghetti sauce.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:44 Professor Fred Watson: Spaghetti. Yes, that's right.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 Andrew Dunkley: In the movie Interstellar, of course he's
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 referring to a situation where an
00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 astronaut did cross the plane into a black
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 hole to help solve,
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 a, a, a puzzle that they could only solve
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 if they could get inside a black hole.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:01 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:02 Paddy: Yep.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:04 Professor Fred Watson: I, I did see the movie, but I don't remember
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 the exact plot. I just remember thinking, no,
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 that couldn't possibly happen. No. What are
00:07:10 --> 00:07:10 they talking about?
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 Andrew Dunkley: All a gravity problem and they couldn't do
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 it. Black hole. So that's,
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 I had to go in, brilliant film, but that was
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 probably where it jumped the shark, so to
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 speak. in terms of reality. But
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 who cares? It's science fiction. I loved it.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:29 Absolutely loved it. Thank you Mark, great to
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 hear from you and thanks for reaching out on
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 Facebook. Our next question comes from
00:07:35 --> 00:07:35 Craig.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 Craig: Hi professors, it's Craig calling from
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 Sunny Marimbula in New South Wales.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 I have a question about dimensions.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 1, dimension, 2, 3.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:51 They all need time and we
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 describe time as a dimension. But
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 is it really? It's kind of
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 like half a dimension. We can move in
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 one vector but not in the other.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 Unless you can move faster than the speed of
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 light and I don't think we can. So
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 it's not really a full dimension.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 It's as I said, more like a Half a dimension.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:15 What are your thoughts?
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 Andrew Dunkley: M. Okay, Craig, thank you.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:21 Andrew Dunkley: yes, half a dimension.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:23 Andrew Dunkley: We do describe time as a dimension
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 and while you're talking I'm going to do some
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 research because I remember us talking not so
00:08:29 --> 00:08:32 long ago about a paper that was
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 released suggesting time travels
00:08:35 --> 00:08:36 in two directions at once.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:38 Was that.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's that was
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 for the. It's
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 the way some quantum processes experience it.
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 I think that was what it was about. Yeah. so
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 time is a dimension. this
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 emerged from sort of mathematical
00:08:56 --> 00:08:58 studies in the wake of Einstein's special
00:08:58 --> 00:08:59 theory of relativity.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 and so you can write down an
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 equation, if I
00:09:07 --> 00:09:08 remember it rightly
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 so you, excuse me, imagine yourself
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 moving, in
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 three dimensions, a
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 distance which we'll call S. You've got
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 three coordinates and actually in three
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 dimensions you can write down an equation
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 which we call the metric. And this is for
00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 normal non relativistic space which would be
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 the S squared equals X squared plus Y squared
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 plus Z squared. That would be a formal
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 equation of how you would move in a three
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 dimensional coordinate system. we,
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 you know, we express these things
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 mathematically. It's called a metric. That is
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 the bottom
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 line of this. but with
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 relativity coming along people realise that
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 yes, time behaves just like a dimension,
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 and it is variable, it can be
00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 squashed and it can be extended. Just as
00:10:03 --> 00:10:06 we've been talking about time dilation, your
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 time can look differently from the time
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 of somebody else, who's in a different frame
00:10:12 --> 00:10:13 of reference from you, whether
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 gravitationally or moving. so time is
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 bendy, but
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 you find that when you move to that
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 relativistic situation you can write the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 equation down where you've got four
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 dimensions, and one of them is time. And if I
00:10:29 --> 00:10:30 remember rightly, it's S squared equals X
00:10:30 --> 00:10:33 squared plus Y squared plus Z squared minus C
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 squared T squared, where T is time.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 So it behaves just like a dimension.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 And that is why we call it a
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 dimension, because it is, but it is clearly
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 different in some ways from the three
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 dimensions of space because. Exactly, as
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 Craig says, we can move willy nilly about the
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 three dimensions of space within reason of
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 course, but we can move around them, but we
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 can't move willy nilly around the dimension
00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 of time, except under certain circumstances
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 where you're travelling at very high
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 velocities and things of that sort. So it
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 is a very unusual, it's an unusual
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 dimension, but it is a dimension.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:16 I quite like the idea of it being half A
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 dimension. but I think my mathematical
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 friends would say no, it's definitely
00:11:22 --> 00:11:23 not half a dimension.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:26 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I found several articles on what
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 we'd spoken about, which was, a paper
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 published late February, early March. In the
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 quantum realm, time arrow might fly in
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 two directions. Mark might want
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 to, Craig, I mean, might want to look that
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 up, and read a bit more about it. But
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 yeah, it's a special circumstance I
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 suppose would be the best way to
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 describe it. but yeah, it's,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 it's, yeah, it's an interesting article.
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 Professor Fred Watson: It's an interesting question from Craig too.
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, very interesting. Thank you Craig. Great
00:11:58 --> 00:11:59 to hear from you.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 this is Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley here with
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:07 Andrew Dunkley: Let's take a break from the show to tell you
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00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 Now back to the show.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 Andrew Dunkley: SpaceNuts. Okay, Fred Watson, we've got
00:13:56 --> 00:13:58 another audio question from a regular
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 senderinera. Here's Mikey.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 Mikey: Hey friend. And Andrew. It is Mikey from
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 Illinois. Once again, I'm sitting here
00:14:06 --> 00:14:08 at 5:30 in the morning as one does, pondering
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 about life in the universe. And I Was just
00:14:11 --> 00:14:13 wondering why we're so fixated on life
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 had already happening on other
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 planets. we look for signs of life
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 from the past on Mars, you know eventually on
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 Venus and all these places that we go. But
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 what are the odds that these places say
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 Venus for example are
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 on their infancy stage of life and
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 Venus will eventually cool down
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 one day and when the Earth is
00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 long gone, possibly because we've self
00:14:41 --> 00:14:44 annihilated ourselves, maybe one day
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 millions of years in the future, Venus will
00:14:46 --> 00:14:49 be an oasis. I'm just
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 curious on your guys thoughts of this and I
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 mean what are, what are the chances that
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 maybe some planet or somebody in our solar
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 system as of right now may not be able to
00:14:58 --> 00:15:01 harbour life but someday in the future will
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 be. Thanks guys.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 Andrew Dunkley: Thank you Mikey.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:07 Andrew Dunkley: that's a really interesting question. in
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09 terms of the Venus theory,
00:15:10 --> 00:15:13 you might argue that Venus has already been
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 there because I remember a story way back
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 when we talked about the potential for
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 three planets in our own solar system that
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 all could have potentially harboured life.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 We know of one, we live on it. But Mars and
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 Venus were also cited as planets at some
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 stage had what would
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 have been a ah,
00:15:35 --> 00:15:37 chemistry, an environment
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 that could have harboured life. And
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 Mars lost its atmosphere which sort of put
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 them to bed. Venus went rogue.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 Greenhouse effect. And that put their
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 potential for life to bed but doesn't write
00:15:53 --> 00:15:55 off the possibility that they might have had
00:15:55 --> 00:15:55 it.
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 Professor Fred Watson: That's true. and I think that's absolutely
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 right. Both those planets might have had it.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 as you say Venus had the
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 runaway greenhouse effect which put its
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 surface temperature up to what is it, 450 or
00:16:10 --> 00:16:10 thereabouts.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 Andrew Dunkley: That's yeah, Celsius.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 Professor Fred Watson: so I think with Venus it's
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 done its dash because as time
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 goes on the likelihood is that Venus will
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 get even more inhospitable to life.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 as the sun basically
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 swells towards the end of its
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 lifetime and I'm talking now about 3 billion
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35 years or so in the future it'll start
00:16:35 --> 00:16:37 swelling, Venus will get
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 even hotter than it is now. Earth might
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 very well become uninhabitable by then.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 Mars however might turn into a
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 warm world. it's doubtful it would
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 regain its atmosphere. it might regain
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 a lot of water which probably would evaporate
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 into space without pressure of an atmosphere.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 But yeah it's impossible. Future ah,
00:17:01 --> 00:17:03 habitable world even if it's not. Now we
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 don't know whether any microbes on Mars, but
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 that's why we're being so careful to avoid
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 contaminating them if there are, Perhaps an
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 even more interesting world is Titan.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:18 As the Goldilocks zone creeps outwards as the
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 sun expands in its later years,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:23 Titan is going to become a much more
00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 desirable place. in terms of
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 habitability. It's the only place in the
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 world. Sorry, the only place in the universe
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 that we know of where there are ah, lakes and
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 rivers in equilibrium with its atmosphere.
00:17:36 --> 00:17:38 They are liquid natural gas rather than
00:17:38 --> 00:17:41 water. But I think it's a, you know, it's a
00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 big planet. It's bigger than the planet
00:17:43 --> 00:17:44 Mercury. Sorry, It's a big satellite. It's
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 bigger than the planet Mercury. maybe that's
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 a place where we could find living organisms
00:17:50 --> 00:17:52 some way down the track in the future.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 Andrew Dunkley: Not, not to mention Europa,
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 Enceladus, Ganymede, Callista,
00:17:58 --> 00:17:58 Triton.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 Professor Fred Watson: All possible. Yapetus.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 Andrew Dunkley: Yapetus, yes, yes.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:07 the ice moons in
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 orbiting the gas giants are all looking,
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 being looked at favourably for potential life
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 with their under ice oceans.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:20 So you can't say never. I mean we haven't
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 yet. We haven't found it yet.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 But they have found the,
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 the seeds of life in the, in the geysers
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 coming out of Of one or two of these moons.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:32 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:34 Andrew Dunkley: Was it Cassini that did that?
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, with Enceladus.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:37 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 Professor Fred Watson: Such as some of us.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:41 Andrew Dunkley: No, it's The evidence is starting to build
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 up. I do believe that we will
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 find something in our own solar system in
00:18:47 --> 00:18:50 the not too distant future. That's
00:18:50 --> 00:18:51 my theory anyway.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:54 Professor Fred Watson: I hope you're right because I'd like.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 Andrew Dunkley: To know, and in
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 answer to the initial question, why are we
00:19:00 --> 00:19:02 so obsessed with life? because
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 we are living creatures and we want to know
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 if there are any others beyond our planet. I
00:19:07 --> 00:19:10 mean it's, it's a natural thing to consider.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 And wouldn't it be great if we found it? It
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 would be the, the probably the biggest
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 discovery in the history. History of
00:19:18 --> 00:19:19 humanity.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, exactly.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 Andrew Dunkley: Even if it's a flea
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 or krill, I'm still hanging.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 Yes, there's krill, there's whales.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:31 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:34 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks Mikey.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 Good to hear from you. And our next question
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 comes from Fritz, who's put
00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 this one.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 Paddy: Hi, space nuts. This is Fritz from
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 Northeast, rural Georgia.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 My question is for
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 planetary scientists and Mars
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 and water on the surface. Why
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 aren't they discussing further the
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 Milankovitch cycles and the influence
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 on Mars having wetter, warmer
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 phases? This is part of the
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 obliquity the axle tilt which can
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 range between 10 to
00:20:13 --> 00:20:16 66.0degrees
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 over a range of 120
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 years up to a longer modulation
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 of as much as 1.25 million
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 years. And even at 40%
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 it could trigger significant ice
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 redistribution or melting.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 And this could change
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 what's a cold dry period to a surface
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 of flowing water at times and
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 a wetter period at times.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 And this happens regularly and Mars will
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 have a wet and warm period
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55 again. So I'm surprised
00:20:55 --> 00:20:57 planetary scientists don't discuss this when
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 they talk about the loss of water. But water
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 is there in the permafrost and
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 such and where did it all go and everything.
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 But it's not discussed how it will return.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 Thanks a lot and love the show.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:12 Can't wait to hear more.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:12 Andrew Dunkley: Thank you.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 Andrew Dunkley: Fritz, you kind of touched on that when you
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 were talking about Mikey's question and
00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 how Venus is probably a write off but
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 Mars will actually get back to a state of
00:21:23 --> 00:21:24 having liquid water.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27 what's the Malinkov cycle?
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31 Professor Fred Watson: actually the Milankovitch
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 is yes the name of the person
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 who put the idea on the map that
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 various periodicities and they're to do
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 with the eccentricity or non
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 circularity of an orbit, the incline
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 of the you know, the axis in the orbit, and
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 other parameters like that, these things vary
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 in cycles. Mars has had exactly
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 as Fritz says, a really big
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 range in its axial tilt, 10 to 60
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 degrees is what he quoted. And I think that's
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08 about right. we think the reason why that
00:22:08 --> 00:22:10 hasn't happened on Earth is because the moon
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 actually stabilises the Earth's rotation. So
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 it's the tilt of its axis has remained much
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 much closer to its present 23 and a half
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 degrees. but the answer
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 to Fritz's question is that actually
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 planetary scientists do look at this and you
00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 don't have to look that far to find papers
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 that refer to these M.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 Milankovitch cycles. in terms
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 of Mars climate. I found a nice one
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 by some Swiss authors published in
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 2019. this is
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 called time scales of the climate record in
00:22:46 --> 00:22:49 the south polar ice cap of Mars. And it's
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 basically linking the
00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 ice layer deposits
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 basically in the south polar ice cap of Mars,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 the largest water ice reservoirs on Mars as
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 they say in the abstract of their paper, and
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 linking them to climate oscillations, the
00:23:05 --> 00:23:08 Milankovitch cycles of Mars's orbit.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 and so that's quite an interesting paper.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:12 As I said I don't Know whether I mentioned
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 published in 2019 in Geophysical
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 Research Letters. and there are other papers
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 too that talk about the climatic effect
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 of these orbital cycles. So it's not
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26 something that's being ignored by planetary
00:23:26 --> 00:23:27 scientists. I think the view that they've
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 come to though is that they're
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 giving you relatively modest changes in
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 climate. the fact that the
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 solar parameters will themselves change over
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 time, as we were discussing in Mikey's
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 question, that means that even without those
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 you might find that Mars is warming up enough
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48 that perhaps we will see a warm wet planet
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 one day, but we won't be around to see it
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 here on planet Earth because we'll be gone by
00:23:52 --> 00:23:52 then.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, however, as you said
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 with Mikey's question, that water will
00:23:58 --> 00:23:58 probably.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 Professor Fred Watson: Get, it depends what, yeah, what the,
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 what the circumstances are. But yeah, check
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 out Mars and Milankovitch cycles and there's
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 quite a few papers that refer to it.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 Andrew Dunkley: Very good, thank you Fritz. Great question
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 though. Love those curveballs. That's ah,
00:24:14 --> 00:24:15 a rip up.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:18 Andrew Dunkley: Let's take a little break from the show to
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00:27:33 --> 00:27:34 Now back to the show.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, we checked all four systems and being
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 with a go Space Nuts, one final
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 thought and this one comes from
00:27:44 --> 00:27:47 Paddy. He said hi Andrew and Fred Watson. I
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49 have a premise for a book for Andrew. your
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 discussion on Martian water provoked the
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54 thought what if humans are on Mars,
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 drink unfiltered water and ingest a
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 Martian microbe that merges with human
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 cells like mitochondria did,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 resulting in whatever you wish to
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 knew the story with. I hope you
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 like the idea. Cheers from Patty. I do like
00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 the idea. Funny, funny you should bring that
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 up Patty because this is my last show
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 for a few months. Judy and I and
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 going around the world basically and we're
00:28:22 --> 00:28:25 going to take our time. and Judy said,
00:28:25 --> 00:28:27 you know, I don't want you to get bored. Why,
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29 why don't you write a book while you're away.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 And I was trying to come up with concepts. I
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 was thinking about maybe, you know, a story
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38 revolving around Earth building its own
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 Dyson Sphere or some kind of megastructure.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 But, now you've given me something else to
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 think about. So might. Might
00:28:47 --> 00:28:50 go down that road. Although it's kind of been
00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 done before. There was a movie many, many
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 years ago about a, meteorite
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 that hit Earth and it had some
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 kind of viral thing in it that.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 That was basically killing people. And the
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 whole story centred around a bunch of
00:29:04 --> 00:29:07 scientists that were basically in
00:29:07 --> 00:29:09 lockdown in some facility in the middle of
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 the desert trying to figure out how to stop
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 it. I can't remember what it was called, but
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 it's a great film. Fabulous film.
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 scared the bajeebis out of me. It
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 was. It wasn't the Blob or anything like
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24 that. This was just a micro. But it had, It.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 It just was highly volatile and,
00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 and very destructive and. Yeah,
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 but look, definitely food
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 for thought, Patti. I'll. I'll give it some
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 consideration and wonder how I can
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 actually merge that with a Dyson spear angle.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:43 Professor Fred Watson: Sure you'll manage it, Andrew. I look forward
00:29:43 --> 00:29:45 to hearing about it. when you come back in
00:29:45 --> 00:29:48 August, we'll probably get a full
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50 rundown of what the plot is. Yes.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:53 Andrew Dunkley: a few people have contacted me saying, oh,
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 when are you in New York? I might. And things
00:29:56 --> 00:29:56 like that.
00:29:56 --> 00:29:57 Professor Fred Watson: So cool.
00:29:58 --> 00:29:59 Andrew Dunkley: We might be able to track a few people down
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 and have a chat. But look, what I'm going to
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05 try and do during the trip is do some
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 monologues back into the show so I can give
00:30:07 --> 00:30:10 you updates of, of what we're doing. So if
00:30:10 --> 00:30:11 anyone's interested. If you're not, I'll just
00:30:11 --> 00:30:12 stay out of it.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:15 Professor Fred Watson: I think that would be great. I think you
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17 should, do that. It will, be something that
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 Heidi and I can fit into the, into the scheme
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 of things, I hope. And, and enjoy it very
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 much. So we look forward to that every
00:30:24 --> 00:30:25 week.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 Andrew Dunkley: But, there's some really interesting
00:30:27 --> 00:30:29 places. So, there might be something to talk
00:30:29 --> 00:30:32 about. we'll see. It looks like every
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34 time we go somewhere there's a volcano, it
00:30:34 --> 00:30:35 erupts.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:35 Professor Fred Watson: So.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40 Andrew Dunkley: Might be able to. That, we'll see how it
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 goes. but yeah, we've been planning this trip
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 for a long, long time and yeah, we, we head
00:30:44 --> 00:30:45 off next week.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:45 Andrew Dunkley: So.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 Andrew Dunkley: Very exciting, very exciting.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:51 and that brings us to the end. Thanks to
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 everybody who contributed. Keep the questions
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 coming because Heidi will need them to try
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57 and stump Fred Watson. which is very, very
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 hard to do. but yes,
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 just go to our website and send them via the
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 AMA tab. So there's two
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 URLs Space Nuts IO or
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 Space Nuts podcast.com
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 and keep those, keep those messages coming
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16 in. and Heidi and Fred Watson will
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 tackle them over the next few months. Gosh,
00:31:18 --> 00:31:21 it's hard to believe it'll be that long. But,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 yeah, I've never been away from home for that
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 long in my life. But you
00:31:26 --> 00:31:28 know, it'll be exciting. And thank you as
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 always, Fred Watson. Thank you very much as
00:31:30 --> 00:31:31 always.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33 Professor Fred Watson: A pleasure, Andrew. And yeah, have a great
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 trip. We hope everything goes well for you.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 I look forward to seeing your emails from
00:31:38 --> 00:31:41 time to time. Find out what's happening. I'd
00:31:41 --> 00:31:42 be interested to know whether you'll be
00:31:42 --> 00:31:43 homeless when you get back.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 Andrew Dunkley: It's a distinct possibility. We put an ass on
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 the market and just deal with all that when
00:31:49 --> 00:31:49 we get home.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 Professor Fred Watson: There you go. Nice, good, good, good stuff.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55 And so have a great time, both you and Judy.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:57 And we'll speak again in August.
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Thank you, Fred Watson. Thanks as
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 always been, it's been terrific.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 And thanks, to Huw in the studio who
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 couldn't be with us today. Tried to ride a,
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 Milankovich cycle and the chain fell off.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:12 And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your
00:32:12 --> 00:32:14 company. See you in a few months.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:14 Professor Fred Watson: Bye.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:14 Andrew Dunkley: Bye.
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