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Black Holes, Time Dimensions, and the Future of Life on Mars
In this thought-provoking episode of Space Nuts, host Andrew Dunkley and the ever-insightful Professor Fred Watson tackle a variety of intriguing questions from listeners. From the mysteries of black holes to the complex nature of time and the potential for life on Mars, this episode promises to stimulate your cosmic curiosity.
Episode Highlights:
- Black Holes and Time: Andrew and Fred Watson delve into a listener's question about black holes and the nature of time as one approaches the event horizon. Can time really reverse, or does it simply stop? The duo explores these mind-bending concepts and the implications of black hole physics.
- The Nature of Time: A fascinating discussion arises from a question about whether time can be considered a true dimension. Andrew and Fred Watson unpack the complexities of time as a dimension, including its unique properties compared to spatial dimensions and how it affects our understanding of the universe.
- Future Habitats on Mars: The conversation shifts to the potential for life on Mars and the impact of Milankovitch cycles on the planet's climate. Can Mars become a habitable world again, and what does that mean for the future of life in our solar system? The duo examines the possibilities and the ongoing search for extraterrestrial life.
- Listener Ideas and Cosmic Creativity: Andrew shares an exciting book premise suggested by a listener, exploring the idea of Martian microbes merging with human cells. This sparks a conversation about the implications of such a scenario and the creative possibilities it presents.
For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website. Follow us on social media at SpaceNutsPod on Facebook, X, YouTube Music, Tumblr, Instagram, and TikTok. We love engaging with our community, so be sure to drop us a message or comment on your favourite platform.
If you’d like to help support Space Nuts and join our growing family of insiders for commercial-free episodes and more, visit spacenutspodcast.com/about
Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
(00:00) Welcome to Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson Watson
(01:20) Discussion on black holes and the nature of time
(15:00) Exploring the potential for life on Mars and Milankovitch cycles
(25:30) Listener Ash ideas and cosmic creativity
For commercial-free versions of Space Nuts, join us on Patreon, Supercast, Apple Podcasts, or become a supporter here: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-astronomy-insights-cosmic-discoveries--2631155/support.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Andrew Dunkley here and this is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 Space Nuts, a Q and A edition. Thanks for joining
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 us. Coming up we're going to oh gosh,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 talk about something never before spoken of on
00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 Space Nuts. A black hole. A little
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 bit of a different twist on this one though. We're also going to look at
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 the. Dimension of time, our obsession
00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 with life, the malinkov cycles
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 of Mars and Paddy's got an idea for
00:00:25 --> 00:00:28 me to write a book. That's all coming up
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 on this edition of space nuts.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 10, 9. Ignition
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 report it feels good.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 Andrew Dunkley: And with all the answers is Professor Fred Watson
00:00:49 --> 00:00:51 Watson, astronomer at large. Hello friend.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 Professor Fred Watson: Hello Andrew. It's not all the answers but
00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 well, two or three of them, that's all
00:00:58 --> 00:00:58 we need.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 Andrew Dunkley: I thought I'd show you my background today.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I was to ask you about that.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:06 Andrew Dunkley: All these rockets launching into space. That's from
00:01:06 --> 00:01:09 the sphere in Las Vegas. I took that photo
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 when we went to a show there called Postcard From
00:01:12 --> 00:01:15 Earth. And the basis of the
00:01:15 --> 00:01:18 story is that Earth's become
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 uninhabitable due to global warming. So everyone
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 basically went let's get out of Dodge. And that's the
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 scene of all the rockets taking off as humanity
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 leaves the planet. And the whole
00:01:29 --> 00:01:32 storyline basically is about people coming back
00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 to visit but we can't live here anymore because we messed it
00:01:35 --> 00:01:38 up so bad. And that, yeah, so that's the
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 launch sequence from all the humans leaving the planet
00:01:41 --> 00:01:44 after we decimated it with global warming and climate
00:01:44 --> 00:01:47 change. and it's a 360
00:01:47 --> 00:01:50 degree sphere in Las Vegas, which you
00:01:50 --> 00:01:53 can walk around and it has
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 pictures on the outside, but on the inside it's a
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 visual screen that goes all around you.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 not only is it showing you pictures but you can also
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 experience weather while you're there.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 So you fly over snow fields and you can feel the cold
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 and the wind. you fly over an
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 orchard in California, you can smell the citrus.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 it's really brilliant, really amazing facility
00:02:15 --> 00:02:18 that they've, they've built there and all centred around
00:02:18 --> 00:02:21 science. So yeah, loved it, Absolutely loved
00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 it. Notwithstanding the fact the Eagles are performing
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 there pretty much as I speak. So they do all kind of thing
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 as well. Yeah. But yeah, I like that, I like that as
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 a backdrop. Sort of fits in with what we do. Space Nuts
00:02:33 --> 00:02:34 launching rockets, that kind of thing.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 Professor Fred Watson: So the reason why Earth, is uninhabitable. Is because of all
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 these rockets leaving behind their trailer
00:02:43 --> 00:02:44 were nasty stuff.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:45 Andrew Dunkley: They dusted chemicals.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 It probably didn't help that many take.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:50 Professor Fred Watson: I don't think it would, no.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 Andrew Dunkley: Let's get down to some questions. And our first one
00:02:54 --> 00:02:56 comes from Mark, Painter. this one came via, Facebook.
00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 Dear Andrew and Professor Fred Watson. I have a few questions that
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 puzzle me today. I'll start with, of course,
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 black holes in the movie Interstellar.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 As they get closer to the black hole, time slows down
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 relative to the outside observer. By
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 extension, as we get close to the event horizon, time
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 would stretch more and more and I assume follows
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 an exponential curve to the point where time
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 effectively stops. So then to enter
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 the black hole, wouldn't time have to go in
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 reverse? Could it be that all black holes
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 are actually chunks that come from the Big
00:03:31 --> 00:03:33 Bang that did not,
00:03:34 --> 00:03:37 form, That did not form normal matter?
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks in advance.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 Andrew Dunkley: We kind of talked about that in our last episode. The
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 primordial black holes. And
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 they're maybe being responsible
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 for dark matter, which Fred Watson
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 debunked pretty heavily. Yeah, there's
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 a big up. Really? No, but, So he's
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 asking about time being reversed. If you entered a
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 black hole, I know something that would be
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 reversed. Your life. But that's besides the point.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, Just. Just to, elaborate on what you
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 were just saying though, Andrew.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:15 primordial black holes may exist. We just don't know.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 and my comment was that I didn't think they would
00:04:19 --> 00:04:21 amount to forming the. The dark matter that,
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 you know, looking for. But we
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 do, we do know that, some black holes are
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29 actually formed from
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 supernova explosions. The debris left over by
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 supernova. The collapse of the core of a star that
00:04:36 --> 00:04:39 has sufficient mass, up to 22.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 Something like 22 solar masses. So, the answer
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 to the last bit of Mark's question there. Could
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 it be that all the black holes are actually chunks that came from the Big
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 Bang that did not form normal matter? And,
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 some of them probably did, the primordial ones.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 But, some also didn't. We know that
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 black holes are formed by. By stars getting to the ends of their
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 lives. And regarding time
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 reversal, Mark is absolutely right that
00:05:06 --> 00:05:09 as you, To an outside observer, the
00:05:09 --> 00:05:11 closer you get to the event horizon,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 the, More
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 your time to the outside observer slows down,
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 if I can put it that way. And when you cross the event
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 horizon, basically time stops. So your person
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 would be frozen, on the event horizon. Although
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 they've actually fallen into it. They don't see
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 the event horizon because that's ah, basically an
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 optical illusion. It's the point at which light
00:05:35 --> 00:05:36 cannot escape.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 Andrew Dunkley: We thought this, some
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 episodes back about how if you were to
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 cross the threshold, like, oh, space and
00:05:44 --> 00:05:45 time would flip.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, they do. that's. As you get close
00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 to it, it's exactly right. The dimensions
00:05:51 --> 00:05:54 flip. And we had quite a nice explanation as
00:05:54 --> 00:05:55 to why that would be.
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 Andrew Dunkley: Which great YouTube video on it, I think.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that was it. There was a YouTube video. Very nicely put.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 very nicely put. Why the.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 Effectively space and time flip. and that
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 in a way sort of illuminates
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 Mark's question as well.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 The, the time doesn't reverse for you.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 time basically disappears along with
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 you and you get swallowed into the,
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 into the black hole from your perspective. and
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 you know, it's no good thinking about whether to an outside
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 observer time might reverse because
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 the outside observer can't see you because you're, by
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 that time you're inside the event horizon. So
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 nobody's going to see you, Nobody will feel your pain.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:41 Andrew Dunkley: No, no.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 Andrew Dunkley: But you'll be covered in spaghetti sauce.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:44 Professor Fred Watson: Spaghetti. Yes, that's right.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 Andrew Dunkley: In the movie Interstellar, of course he's referring to
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 a situation where an astronaut did
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 cross the plane into a black hole
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 to help solve, a, a, a
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 puzzle that they could only solve if they could get
00:06:59 --> 00:07:00 inside a black hole.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:01 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:02 Paddy: Yep.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 Professor Fred Watson: I, I did see the movie, but I don't remember the exact plot.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:08 I just remember thinking, no, that couldn't possibly
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10 happen. No. What are they talking about?
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 Andrew Dunkley: All a gravity problem and they couldn't do
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 it. Black hole. So that's,
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 I had to go in, brilliant film, but that was probably
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 where it jumped the shark, so to speak.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 in terms of reality. But who cares?
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 It's science fiction. I loved it. Absolutely loved it.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 Thank you Mark, great to hear from you and thanks
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 for reaching out on Facebook. Our next question
00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 comes from Craig.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 Craig: Hi professors, it's Craig calling from
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 Sunny Marimbula in New South Wales.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 I have a question about dimensions.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 1, dimension, 2, 3.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:51 They all need time and we
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 describe time as a dimension. But
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 is it really? It's kind of
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 like half a dimension. We can move in
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 one vector but not in the other.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 Unless you can move faster than the speed of light
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 and I don't think we can. So
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 it's not really a full dimension.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 It's as I said, more like a Half a dimension.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:15 What are your thoughts?
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 Andrew Dunkley: M. Okay, Craig, thank you.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:21 Andrew Dunkley: yes, half a dimension.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:23 Andrew Dunkley: We do describe time as a dimension
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 and while you're talking I'm going to do some research because
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 I remember us talking not so long ago
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 about a paper that was released
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 suggesting time travels in two
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 directions at once. Was
00:08:38 --> 00:08:38 that.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's that was
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 for the. It's
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 the way some quantum processes experience it. I
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 think that was what it was about. Yeah. so time is
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 a dimension. this emerged
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 from sort of mathematical studies in the
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 wake of Einstein's special theory of relativity.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 and so you can write down an
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 equation, if I
00:09:07 --> 00:09:08 remember it rightly
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 so you, excuse me, imagine yourself
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 moving, in
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 three dimensions, a
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 distance which we'll call S. You've got
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 three coordinates and actually in three
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 dimensions you can write down an equation which we call the metric.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 And this is for normal non relativistic space
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 which would be the S squared equals X squared plus Y squared
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 plus Z squared. That would be a formal
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 equation of how you would move in a three
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 dimensional coordinate system. we,
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 you know, we express these things
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 mathematically. It's called a metric. That is the
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 bottom line of this. but with
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 relativity coming along people realise that
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 yes, time behaves just like a dimension,
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 and it is variable, it can be
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 squashed and it can be extended. Just as we've been talking
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 about time dilation, your time
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 can look differently from the time of
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 somebody else, who's in a different frame of
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 reference from you, whether gravitationally or moving.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 so time is bendy, but
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 you find that when you move to that
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 relativistic situation you can write the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 equation down where you've got four dimensions,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:30 and one of them is time. And if I remember rightly, it's S squared equals
00:10:30 --> 00:10:33 X squared plus Y squared plus Z squared minus C
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 squared T squared, where T is time.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 So it behaves just like a dimension.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 And that is why we call it a
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 dimension, because it is, but it is clearly
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 different in some ways from the three
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 dimensions of space because. Exactly, as
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 Craig says, we can move willy nilly about the three
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 dimensions of space within reason of course, but we can
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 move around them, but we can't move willy
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 nilly around the dimension of time, except under
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 certain circumstances where you're travelling at very high velocities
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 and things of that sort. So it is a very
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 unusual, it's an unusual dimension,
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 but it is a dimension. I quite
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 like the idea of it being half A dimension. but I
00:11:18 --> 00:11:19 think my mathematical friends would
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 say no, it's definitely not half a dimension.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:26 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I found several articles on what
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 we'd spoken about, which was, a paper
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 published late February, early March. In the
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 quantum realm, time arrow might fly in
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 two directions. Mark might want
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 to, Craig, I mean, might want to look that
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 up, and read a bit more about it. But
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 yeah, it's a special circumstance I
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 suppose would be the best way to
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 describe it. but yeah, it's,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 it's, yeah, it's an interesting article.
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 Professor Fred Watson: It's an interesting question from Craig too.
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, very interesting. Thank you Craig. Great to hear from you.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 this is Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley here with
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:08 Andrew Dunkley: Let's take a break from the show to tell you about our sponsor,
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00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 Now back to the show.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 Andrew Dunkley: SpaceNuts. Okay, Fred Watson, we've got another
00:13:56 --> 00:13:58 audio question from a regular
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 senderinera. Here's Mikey.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 Mikey: Hey friend. And Andrew. It is Mikey from Illinois. Once again,
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 I'm sitting here at 5:30 in the morning as one does,
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 pondering about life in the universe. And I
00:14:11 --> 00:14:13 Was just wondering why we're so fixated on life
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 had already happening on other
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 planets. we look for signs of life
00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 from the past on Mars, you know eventually on Venus
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 and all these places that we go. But what are the
00:14:25 --> 00:14:27 odds that these places say
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 Venus for example are
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 on their infancy stage of life and
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 Venus will eventually cool down
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 one day and when the Earth is
00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 long gone, possibly because we've self
00:14:41 --> 00:14:44 annihilated ourselves, maybe one day
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 millions of years in the future, Venus will be an
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 oasis. I'm just curious on
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 your guys thoughts of this and I mean what are, what are the
00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 chances that maybe some planet or
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 somebody in our solar system as of right now may not be able
00:14:58 --> 00:15:01 to harbour life but someday in the future will
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 be. Thanks guys.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 Andrew Dunkley: Thank you Mikey.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 Andrew Dunkley: that's a really interesting question. in terms of the
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 Venus theory,
00:15:10 --> 00:15:13 you might argue that Venus has already been there because
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 I remember a story way back when we
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 talked about the potential for three
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 planets in our own solar system that all
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 could have potentially harboured life. We know of one, we
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 live on it. But Mars and Venus were also cited
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 as planets at some stage
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33 had what would have been
00:15:35 --> 00:15:37 a ah, chemistry, an environment
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 that could have harboured life. And
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 Mars lost its atmosphere which sort of put them to
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 bed. Venus went rogue.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 Greenhouse effect. And that put their
00:15:51 --> 00:15:54 potential for life to bed but doesn't write off
00:15:54 --> 00:15:55 the possibility that they might have had it.
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 Professor Fred Watson: That's true. and I think that's absolutely right. Both those
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 planets might have had it.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 as you say Venus had the
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 runaway greenhouse effect which put its
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 surface temperature up to what is it, 450 or
00:16:10 --> 00:16:10 thereabouts.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 Andrew Dunkley: That's yeah, Celsius.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 Professor Fred Watson: so I think with Venus it's
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 done its dash because as time
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 goes on the likelihood is that Venus will
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 get even more inhospitable to life.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 as the sun basically
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 swells towards the end of its
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 lifetime and I'm talking now about 3 billion
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 years or so in the future it'll start swelling,
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 Venus will get even hotter than it is now.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 Earth might very well become uninhabitable by
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 then. Mars however might turn into a
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 warm world. it's doubtful it would
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 regain its atmosphere. it might regain
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 a lot of water which probably would evaporate
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 into space without pressure of an atmosphere. But
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 yeah it's impossible. Future ah, habitable
00:17:01 --> 00:17:04 world even if it's not. Now we don't know whether any
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 microbes on Mars, but that's why we're being so
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 careful to avoid contaminating them if there are,
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 Perhaps an even more interesting world is Titan.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:18 As the Goldilocks zone creeps outwards as the
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 sun expands in its later years,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 Titan is going to become a much more desirable
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 place. in terms of habitability.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:30 It's the only place in the world. Sorry, the only place
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 in the universe that we know of where there are ah,
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 lakes and rivers in equilibrium with its
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 atmosphere. They are liquid natural gas rather
00:17:38 --> 00:17:41 than water. But I think it's a, you know, it's a
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 big planet. It's bigger than the planet Mercury. Sorry, It's a big
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 satellite. It's bigger than the planet Mercury.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 maybe that's a place where we could find
00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 living organisms some way down the track in the future.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 Andrew Dunkley: Not, not to mention Europa,
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 Enceladus, Ganymede, Callista,
00:17:58 --> 00:17:58 Triton.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 Professor Fred Watson: All possible. Yapetus.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 Andrew Dunkley: Yapetus, yes, yes.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:07 the ice moons in
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 orbiting the gas giants are all looking,
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 being looked at favourably for potential life
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 with their under ice oceans.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:20 So you can't say never. I mean we haven't
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 yet. We haven't found it yet.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 But they have found the,
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 the seeds of life in the, in the geysers
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 coming out of Of one or two of these moons.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:32 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:34 Andrew Dunkley: Was it Cassini that did that?
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, with Enceladus.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:37 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 Professor Fred Watson: Such as some of us.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 Andrew Dunkley: No, it's The evidence is starting to build up.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 I do believe that we will find something
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 in our own solar system in the not too distant future.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:51 That's my theory anyway.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:54 Professor Fred Watson: I hope you're right because I'd like.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 Andrew Dunkley: To know, and in
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 answer to the initial question, why are we
00:19:00 --> 00:19:02 so obsessed with life? because
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 we are living creatures and we want to know if there
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 are any others beyond our planet. I mean it's,
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 it's a natural thing to consider. And
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 wouldn't it be great if we found it? It would be the, the
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17 probably the biggest discovery in the
00:19:17 --> 00:19:19 history. History of humanity.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, exactly.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 Andrew Dunkley: Even if it's a flea
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 or krill, I'm still hanging.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 Yes, there's krill, there's whales.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:31 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:34 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks Mikey.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 Good to hear from you. And our next question comes
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 from Fritz, who's put
00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 this one.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 Paddy: Hi, space nuts. This is Fritz from
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 Northeast, rural Georgia.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 My question is for
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 planetary scientists and Mars
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 and water on the surface. Why
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 aren't they discussing further the
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 Milankovitch cycles and the influence
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 on Mars having wetter, warmer
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 phases? This is part of the
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 obliquity the axle tilt which can
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 range between 10 to
00:20:13 --> 00:20:16 66.0degrees
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 over a range of 120
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 years up to a longer modulation
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 of as much as 1.25 million
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 years. And even at 40%
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 it could trigger significant ice
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 redistribution or melting.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 And this could change
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 what's a cold dry period to a surface
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 of flowing water at times and
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 a wetter period at times.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 And this happens regularly and Mars will
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 have a wet and warm period
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55 again. So I'm surprised
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 planetary scientists don't discuss this when they talk about the
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 loss of water. But water is there in
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 the permafrost and such and where did it all
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 go and everything. But it's not discussed how it
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 will return. Thanks a lot and love the
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 show. Can't wait to hear more.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:12 Andrew Dunkley: Thank you.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 Andrew Dunkley: Fritz, you kind of touched on that when you were talking about
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 Mikey's question and how
00:21:18 --> 00:21:21 Venus is probably a write off but Mars will actually
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 get back to a state of having liquid water.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27 what's the Malinkov cycle?
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31 Professor Fred Watson: actually the Milankovitch
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 is yes the name of the person
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 who put the idea on the map that
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 various periodicities and they're to do
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 with the eccentricity or non
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 circularity of an orbit, the incline
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 of the you know, the axis in the orbit, and
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 other parameters like that, these things vary
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 in cycles. Mars has had exactly
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 as Fritz says, a really big
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 range in its axial tilt, 10 to 60
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 degrees is what he quoted. And I think that's about right.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 we think the reason why that hasn't happened on Earth is because the
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 moon actually stabilises the Earth's rotation. So
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 it's the tilt of its axis has remained much
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 much closer to its present 23 and a half
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 degrees. but the answer
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 to Fritz's question is that actually planetary
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 scientists do look at this and you don't have to
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 look that far to find papers that
00:22:30 --> 00:22:32 refer to these M.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 Milankovitch cycles. in terms
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 of Mars climate. I found a nice one
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 by some Swiss authors published in
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 2019. this is
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 called time scales of the climate record in the south
00:22:46 --> 00:22:49 polar ice cap of Mars. And it's basically
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 linking the ice layer
00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 deposits
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 basically in the south polar ice cap of Mars, the largest
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 water ice reservoirs on Mars as they say in
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 the abstract of their paper, and linking them to
00:23:04 --> 00:23:07 climate oscillations, the Milankovitch cycles of
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 Mars's orbit. and so that's quite
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 an interesting paper. As I said I don't Know whether I mentioned
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 published in 2019 in Geophysical
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 Research Letters. and there are other papers too that talk
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 about the climatic effect of these
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 orbital cycles. So it's not something that's
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 being ignored by planetary scientists. I think the view that
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29 they've come to though is that
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 they're giving you relatively modest changes
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 in climate. the fact that
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 the solar parameters will themselves change over
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 time, as we were discussing in Mikey's question,
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 that means that even without those you might find that
00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 Mars is warming up enough that perhaps we will see
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50 a warm wet planet one day, but we won't be around to see it here
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 on planet Earth because we'll be gone by then.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, however, as you said
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 with Mikey's question, that water will probably.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 Professor Fred Watson: Get, it depends what, yeah, what the,
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 what the circumstances are. But yeah, check out
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 Mars and Milankovitch cycles and there's quite a
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 few papers that refer to it.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 Andrew Dunkley: Very good, thank you Fritz. Great question though.
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 Love those curveballs. That's ah, a rip
00:24:15 --> 00:24:15 up.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 Andrew Dunkley: Let's take a little break from the show to tell you about our
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00:27:33 --> 00:27:34 Now back to the show.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, we checked all four systems and being with a go
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 Space Nuts, one final
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 thought and this one comes from
00:27:44 --> 00:27:47 Paddy. He said hi Andrew and Fred Watson. I
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49 have a premise for a book for Andrew. your
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 discussion on Martian water provoked the thought what
00:27:52 --> 00:27:55 if humans are on Mars, drink
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 unfiltered water and ingest a Martian
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 microbe that merges with human cells
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 like mitochondria did, resulting in
00:28:04 --> 00:28:07 whatever you wish to knew the story
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09 with. I hope you like the idea.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 Cheers from Patty. I do like the idea.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 Funny, funny you should bring that up Patty because
00:28:15 --> 00:28:18 this is my last show for a few months. Judy and
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21 I and going around the world
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 basically and we're going to take our time.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 and Judy said, you know, I don't want you
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 to get bored. Why, why don't you write a book while you're away.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 And I was trying to come up with concepts. I was
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 thinking about maybe, you know, a story
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38 revolving around Earth building its own
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 Dyson Sphere or some kind of megastructure.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 But, now you've given me something else to think about. So
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 might. Might go down that road. Although it's
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 kind of been done before. There was a movie many, many
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 years ago about a, meteorite
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 that hit Earth and it had some
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 kind of viral thing in it that.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 That was basically killing people. And the whole story
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 centred around a bunch of scientists that were
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 basically in lockdown in some facility
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 in the middle of the desert trying to figure out how to stop it.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 I can't remember what it was called, but it's a great film.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 Fabulous film. scared the bajeebis out of me.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:22 It was. It wasn't the Blob or anything like that. This was
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 just a micro. But it had, It. It
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 just was highly volatile and, and very
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 destructive and. Yeah, but
00:29:30 --> 00:29:33 look, definitely food for thought,
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 Patti. I'll. I'll give it some consideration
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38 and wonder how I can actually merge that with
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40 a Dyson spear angle.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 Professor Fred Watson: Sure you'll manage it, Andrew. I look forward to hearing about
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 it. when you come back in August, we'll
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 probably get a full rundown of what the plot is. Yes.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 Andrew Dunkley: a few people have contacted me saying, oh, when are you in
00:29:54 --> 00:29:56 New York? I might. And things like that.
00:29:56 --> 00:29:57 Professor Fred Watson: So cool.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:01 Andrew Dunkley: We might be able to track a few people down and have a chat. But
00:30:01 --> 00:30:03 look, what I'm going to try and do during
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 the trip is do some monologues back into the show so
00:30:06 --> 00:30:09 I can give you updates of, of what we're doing. So
00:30:09 --> 00:30:12 if anyone's interested. If you're not, I'll just stay out of it.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 Professor Fred Watson: I think that would be great. I think you should, do that. It will,
00:30:16 --> 00:30:18 be something that Heidi and I can fit into the,
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 into the scheme of things, I hope. And, and enjoy it very
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 much. So we look forward to that every
00:30:24 --> 00:30:25 week.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 Andrew Dunkley: But, there's some really interesting
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 places. So, there might be something to talk about.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 we'll see. It looks like every time we go somewhere there's a
00:30:34 --> 00:30:35 volcano, it erupts.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:35 Professor Fred Watson: So.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40 Andrew Dunkley: Might be able to. That, we'll see how it goes.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:43 but yeah, we've been planning this trip for a long, long time and
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45 yeah, we, we head off next week.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:45 Andrew Dunkley: So.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 Andrew Dunkley: Very exciting, very exciting.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 and that brings us to the end. Thanks to everybody who contributed.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 Keep the questions coming because Heidi will need them to
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57 try and stump Fred Watson. which is very, very
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 hard to do. but yes,
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 just go to our website and send them via the
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 AMA tab. So there's two
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 URLs Space Nuts IO or
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 Space Nuts podcast.com
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 and keep those, keep those messages coming in.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17 and Heidi and Fred Watson will tackle them over the next
00:31:17 --> 00:31:20 few months. Gosh, it's hard to believe it'll be that long.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 But, yeah, I've never been away from home for that long in
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 my life. But you know,
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 it'll be exciting. And thank you as always, Fred Watson.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:31 Thank you very much as always.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 Professor Fred Watson: A pleasure, Andrew. And yeah, have a great trip. We
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 hope everything goes well for you. I look forward
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39 to seeing your emails from time to time. Find out what's
00:31:39 --> 00:31:42 happening. I'd be interested to know whether you'll be homeless when
00:31:42 --> 00:31:43 you get back.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 Andrew Dunkley: It's a distinct possibility. We put an ass on the market
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 and just deal with all that when we get home.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 Professor Fred Watson: There you go. Nice, good, good, good stuff.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 And so have a great time, both you and Judy. And we'll
00:31:56 --> 00:31:57 speak again in August.
00:31:57 --> 00:32:00 Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Thank you, Fred Watson. Thanks as always been,
00:32:00 --> 00:32:01 it's been terrific.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 And thanks, to Huw in the studio who
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 couldn't be with us today. Tried to ride a,
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 Milankovich cycle and the chain fell off.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your company. See you in
00:32:13 --> 00:32:14 a few months.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:14 Professor Fred Watson: Bye.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:14 Andrew Dunkley: Bye.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18 Generic: You've been listening to the Space Nuts Podcast,
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26 iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast
00:32:26 --> 00:32:27 player. You can also stream on
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 demand at bitesz.com This has been
00:32:30 --> 00:32:33 another quality podcast production from
00:32:33 --> 00:32:34 bitesz.com