K2-18b, Gravitons & The Comet Conundrum: A Cosmic Q&A

[00:00:00] Hi there, Andrew Dunkley again, the host of the Space Nuts podcast and we are happy to bring you yet another episode. This is a Q&A episode where we'll be answering questions about the life that they think they may have found possibly could be Dunno on K2-18b, gravity and Gravitons, the Swan Comet and hopefully not the Swan Song Comet, boom boom, and fake news. That's all coming up in this episode of Space Nuts.

[00:00:30] 15 seconds, guidance is internal. 10, 9, ignition sequence start. Space Nuts. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space Nuts. Astronauts reported. So does and with me as always is Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at large. Hello Fred. Hello Andrew. Nice to see you again.

[00:00:53] Nice to see you too, yes. Still sort of getting back down to earth because it's only two minutes since we did the last episode. Frank. So still getting over the jet lag but that'll pass. Didn't get seasick. I didn't mention that before in the last episode. Didn't get seasick at all.

[00:01:13] I think we only had one day where we hit some big swells and the captain came on and said, as you can see, the seas are rather busy today. Those waves are 14 feet high. And I thought, hmm, 14 foot waves. Yeah. It had a boat with me at the time. So not that you need one where I live. No, yeah, it was, it was, it was a good ship. Very nice ship. Very good staff. Had a great time.

[00:01:45] And, yeah, I, I, I, I won't go through all the things we did. But I will point out one thing, nothing to do with astronomy, but we'd been to Las Vegas before 15 years ago. And we were, you know, it's a sensory overload. You spend a couple of days there and you just can't wait to get out. It's just that, it's just so in your face.

[00:02:09] We went back this time and I, we didn't say it to each other until after we left, but we both felt the same, that it, it's lost some of its mystique.

[00:02:18] And I put that down to the fact that a lot of the casinos had all sorts of things to try and get people in, like the magic garden and dolphin pools and white lions and MGM casino had lions in the casino living in, I don't know, habitats that were built into the structure of the casino complex.

[00:02:45] It was really quite impressive and, um, uh, notwithstanding what the animal rights activists probably thought. Snacking. That's all gone. Oh. Most of that's gone. You know what they've put in their place? Sports bars. Sports bars. You walk into a giant room that has umpteen televisions covering the space of a, of a theater screen and just lists and lists of odds.

[00:03:15] And a bar with 10,000 different kinds of drinks and people just sitting there betting on the whatever, any sport you can think of. Ice hockey, I think was the flavor of the month while we were there. Um, yeah. And we just walked away and went, gee, that's sad. It's sad. It's sad. It's just, um, and, and the, um, one of the big casinos there called the Mirage is gone. It's just gone. It's just flat ground there.

[00:03:43] They, they've completely demolished it and they're going to replace it with a hard rock. Um, you've heard of hard rock cafes. They're going to have a hard rock, you know. Okay. Unbelievable. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. Anyway, that's beside the point. We've got some questions to get to Fred and we might as well get stuck straight into it. Uh, I'm going to read them all today because I've been away and I, I cleared the deck. So if you've got questions, send them in because I have absolutely wiped the slate clean.

[00:04:11] If you've got a question and we didn't answer it, that's on me. Send me your hate mail because, um, I I'm starting from scratch. Fresh material from next Q and a episode onwards. So, um, send them in via our website. So first one from Martin Berman, gore vine of Potomac, Maryland. Hello space nuts. That's what I won't do it.

[00:04:36] Uh, author and writer extraordinary asks about the recent buzz surrounding the possible detection of life on exoplanet K to 18 B specifically diamental sulfide. Did I say that right? Uh, which could be a bio signature. And while acknowledging it's too early to draw any big conclusions, but that hasn't stopped the popular press. I threw that in not Martin. Martin playfully wonders if life is found there, might they grant asylum to a struggling American

[00:05:05] sci-fi writer disillusioned with earth. Uh, way with words. He does. He does. Um, now I know you, I know you covered K to 18 B, um, the other day with, with Heidi. Uh, but there, there's been, has there been any more information about it? I think what's happened is, um, it's, it, it's basically caused a lot of serious reflection,

[00:05:34] uh, among the science community and the philosophy community as well, uh, who've muscled into this, um, with quite, quite, you know, understandably, um, as to what we're really doing here, what we're looking for when we, when we're looking for evidence of alien life. Uh, and I, I think there are two aspects of this.

[00:05:56] One is, first of all, there is still some doubt about the, uh, the actual detection of these, um, these compounds, these molecules. Um, that there are two of them that have been found. They, some of the authors claim that the authors come from the US and the UK, uh, dimethyl sulfide and dimethyl disulfide.

[00:06:22] Those are the two which on earth are products of the environment caused by phytoplankton, those little microbes that live in water. Uh, and the, the, the authors of the paper have drawn a few strings here. This, this is a world that's actually bigger than earth.

[00:06:46] It's, uh, about, um, 8.6 times the mass of the earth, about 2.6 times the diameter of earth. Yeah. Uh, and the authors believe that this is something called a Heishan world. And the Heishan world, it's a great word actually, uh, is an amalgamation of hydrogen and ocean. It's basically an ocean world with a hydrogen atmosphere. Wow. So it's been called a Heishan world. Uh, we think they exist.

[00:07:14] Um, and the authors of this paper think that they've got evidence to suggest that, uh, uh, K2-18b is actually a Heishan world. Now there are other authors who've stepped in and said, wait a minute, we think it's too hot for that. We think it's, you know, it's got volcanic activity and it's not, it's not a world with an ocean at all. So that's a moot point. But the, the detection of these, uh, of these chemicals, the DMS as it's called and DMDS,

[00:07:43] uh, the abbreviations for them, cause it's too hard to say D-methyl sulfide. Uh, they are, um, uh, those detections themselves are in some doubt because they're at a confidence level. Yes, it's 99.7% certain, but that's not the pretty well 100% that science demands. No. Um, and so there's still uncertainty about that.

[00:08:07] So that's one aspect that maybe this is a misidentification of features in the spectrum of the atmosphere of K2-18b. But the other side of it is, um, one or two people have pointed out that these chemicals have been detected in the, uh, uh, gaseous envelopes of comets. Uh, now on earth, yes, they only come from biological activity, but where are they going

[00:08:37] to come from on a comet, uh, whose temperature is minus 200 degrees Celsius? Uh, it's, so there's gotta be chemical reactions that are independent of life that, that will, um, that will actually generate these, what have been called biomarkers. And so the question is, are they biomarkers at all? Uh, or is it, are we just clutching at straws?

[00:09:02] Um, one of the, one of the articles I read, I really liked the, the term. It was, um, something to the effect that we've been hunting for, uh, needles in a haystack. And is this just a particularly sharp piece of hay that they found? And that could be the case is very nicely put. And so that's where the philosophers have come in and said, you know, we really, we've no idea what alien life might look like.

[00:09:29] Um, it, and to, to sort of in many ways, um, uh, blinker ourselves so that we're only looking for things that are found on earth that are markers of biological activity. Uh, maybe we have to be looking much broader in a much broader sense. Now people have said this for a long time, but I think this particular discovery has really heightened, uh, the concentration of, uh, philosophers coming in on this.

[00:09:59] Um, there's a very interesting article on the conversation, uh, and its title is scientists claim to have found evidence of alien life, but biosignatures might hide more than they reveal. And that comes from a scientist who is actually, um, uh, PhD candidate in the philosophy of biology, uh, at Sydney university. So these, this is philosophy rather than science, but, um, it's a scientific article and it makes

[00:10:26] the point that maybe what we should be looking for is not life as we know it, but life as we don't know it, uh, because it could be different. Yes. We've talked about that before that, uh, yeah, we, we, we make, I suppose, logically make assumptions that life elsewhere might just be like it is on earth, but it, it might be so alien to us. We probably wouldn't even notice it. Yep. We don't know what we're looking for. So that.

[00:10:52] On the other hand, you know, the other side of this coin is all we can look for is biosignatures as we think we interpret them from earth. Yeah. So we've got a few interesting steps to take here. So I think that the, um, K2 18 B story has yet to run quite a long way. I think there'll be more observations of it, uh, maybe with the James Webb, but certainly with the, uh, the ESO ELT, when that comes on stream, the 39 meter optical telescope, uh,

[00:11:21] that will probably give us a much firmer view of whether DMS and DMDS are, are actually in the atmosphere. But the philosophy of what we're looking for, I think is perhaps the, almost the more interesting aspect of this. It kind of reminds me of the recent, uh, discovery that they announced about the atmosphere of Venus. Yes. And that was ultimately debunked, but I think it's been undebunked again. Yeah. Yes, it has. Yeah. That's right. But it's still very, very controversial. Yes. Yes, indeed.

[00:11:50] But, um, again, that was phosphine, wasn't it? It was. Uh, but once again, phosphine is only a biomarker under certain circumstances. Uh, and you know, that's the thing. It may just, there may be natural causes of it in the, um, in the atmosphere of Venus. It's the same situation. It was first of all, a very, um, uh, perhaps, um, adventurous identification of a chemical

[00:12:18] that you found because the data really don't match up to it yet. Yeah. Uh, that coupled with the fact that there may be other ways that this, this compound can be, can be formed. Mm. No, this is fascinating. I was just reading some of the headlines of the, of the major outlets that have latched onto this story and it goes to what Fenton is asking us about it. It's not that one till last because it's my favorite topic at the moment.

[00:12:42] So, um, we'll, we'll get into that, but, uh, and, and that Venus story pops up in, in the list of fake news stories, but it, it, fake news is a terrible way to describe it. These were probably genuine attempts to, to come up with theories and ideas and, um, um, some of them missed the mark. So yeah, fake news is, uh, I don't know who popularized that, but anyway, we'll carry on. Uh, Martin, you know, too, it was. Thank you, Martin. Great to hear from you.

[00:13:10] Uh, different, unusual, um, but always welcome. Let's take a short break from the show to tell you about our sponsor, Insta 360. Now, as you know, and particularly if you follow me on Facebook or Instagram, I love taking photos on our recent trip, I was just in photo heaven. I always look for the perfect shot. I, I got it on this holiday with a whale breaching. Um, so, you know, I love photography.

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[00:17:05] Uh, next question comes from James. Uh, we're not sure where James is, but I'm sure he knows where he is. Uh, this is about gravity and gravitons. The Higgs particle generates the field that gives other particles mass. Gravity is a property of mass directly proportional to the mass of an object. In other words, why do we need another particle as in a graviton to provide gravity? That's a good one. It is. Yes, it is a good one.

[00:17:32] And certainly, um, the, uh, the particle physicists do see, uh, these as two completely separate things. Um, the Higgs particle, uh, was proposed as, as being something that the other particles needed back in, I think it was 1966 or 1967 by Peter Higgs at the University of Edinburgh, uh, who I think he died only a couple of years ago, if I remember rightly.

[00:17:59] Um, and I mean, the graviton has, is still a, is still a hypothetical particle. Um, but, and it, but it's different from what the Higgs does. Uh, the way to interpret the Higgs is very much as the particle that, uh, as exactly as James says, it generates the field that gives particles mass. Um, and the field is, it's like a force field.

[00:18:28] Um, the, the, the way, um, I read a lovely interpretation of, of, uh, of this, that, um, if you imagine some, you know, something like a marble moving around, uh, in space, then it's, it's moving freely. And, uh, you, you, you don't really have anything to sense its mass.

[00:18:49] But if you put it in a jar of treacle or honey, uh, then the, the treacle or the honey actually mimics the Higgs field. Uh, and it provides a resistance which is proportional to the mass of the particle. Uh, and so, uh, the Higgs particle, uh, uh, you know, this is my understanding of it.

[00:19:09] I'm not a particle physicist and I don't think I'm explaining this particularly well, but it has a different function from what the hypothetical graviton has, which would be, um, transmitting another field, the field of gravity. That's a field as well, uh, but, um, uh, but would have different characteristics from the Higgs particle, uh, providing the, the gravitation.

[00:19:34] I suspect James is not going to be convinced by my explanation here, uh, because his question, why do we need another particle to provide gravity? Um, all I'm saying is that gravity is a different thing from the Higgs field. Um, uh, and so we need another particle for it. Uh, but, um, I hope you'll take that. Uh, and perhaps, uh, James, you know, follow up on some of the, uh, on some of the stuff you can find online that really talks about the difference between these particles. Last thing. Yeah. Go on.

[00:20:03] I was just going to say, first thing I'd Google will be, what's the difference between a Higgs particle and a graviton? Done that because I haven't had time, but that's right. And, um, uh, Peter Higgs died last year. Was it last year? Yeah. April the 10th. So just over a year. Yes. Yes. Much missed. He was a great man. Yes, indeed he was. Uh, thank you, James. This is Space Nuts. You're with Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson.

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[00:22:54] You can do that. Or you can add on a few other things as you see fit. That's nordvpn.com slash space nuts. And don't forget the keyword space nuts when you go to the checkout. So, uh, check it out today at nordvpn.com slash space nuts. Now back to the show. Okay. We checked all four systems and came with the go. Space nuts. Next question comes from Ted. No known location.

[00:23:23] No known abode. It reminds me though, Fred, when we, um, no, I hope this, this is not a reflection on, on Ted at all. But when we were in Las Vegas, I was walking across the street and there was a homeless guy in a wheelchair on the opposite side. And I was walking straight towards him and he had a sign and next to it, a bottle for people who put in tips and you read the sign. And it, it, it, it, honestly, it, I can't say it because it is, it, it's got a nasty word

[00:23:52] in it, but it was something word Trump. And you can figure it out for yourself. But if you read with him, you gave him a tip. If you didn't, you just kept walking. So he's a rich man. No, he had quite a few, quite a few, um, handfuls of change. When I went past, but, um, yeah, um, that's beside the point. But, uh, Ted, Ted wants to know, I've been observing the Swan comet every morning for the last few days.

[00:24:21] Please discuss this if you have not already done so. Well, I'm going to ask you anyway, Fred, because I was interested in it. Um, what's the latest? Yeah, it's, um, we haven't discussed it already. Um, so, uh, it's, it's a, it's a timely, uh, a timely question from Ted. And great to hear, Ted, that you've been observing it, uh, because it's not an easy object to observe. It's, um, it's quite faint. It's certainly below naked eye visibility.

[00:24:48] Its full name is C2025F2, Swan. Uh, and it's, uh, a morning object at the moment. Um, I haven't observed it. Uh, I, I'm not a morning person because astronomers aren't generally, unless there's an object like Swan that they really want to see. Um, uh, but, uh, yes, it, it's, um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a,

[00:25:13] an interesting object because it's quite, um, bluish in color. Um, uh, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the, uh, observations that you can see made with relatively small telescopes definitely give it a bluish tinge. Uh, it's, um, it's got a tail that is very, very thin.

[00:25:40] I haven't seen images of its tail, but I believe it's, it's very, very thin. Uh, and it's roughly a degree or so long. Um, but good on Ted for, for observing it. It's, it's probably fading, uh, although not apparently fading as fast as some observers have expected. Yeah. Some articles are describing it as green, but, um, different objects being different colors. Um, yes.

[00:26:09] So that from John sent me some images the other day of, um, what was probably a meteor or meteorite, um, scraping our, uh, our, what do you call it? Atmosphere. And, uh, and it was green, bright green. Um, but they're not always color. Yeah. So that's from the, the oxygen, uh, in the upper atmosphere, um, that you get from a fireball or a meteor.

[00:26:36] Uh, and yeah, I think, um, blue comes, if I remember rightly, I've probably got this wrong. Carbon monoxide in a comet. Okay. Or that might be the green. I can't remember. But yes, the color is essentially, it means, it's telling you something about the, the, the gases that make up the, or the frozen gases that make up the comet. Because that's what they are. They're balls of frozen gas. Green comets glow primarily due to a molecule called diatomic carbon. Yes, that's right. Indeed.

[00:27:06] And the emission of blue light is, um, it just says ionized gases such as carbon monoxide. Yeah. So at least I got that one right. One of three, you're doing well. Yeah. But I haven't seen the comet, but, uh, thank you very much for, yeah, for raising it with space. It's nice to have a mention of it too. We've had, we've had quite a glut of comets lately, haven't we? Yeah. It's not been bad. That's right. And especially those big ones that threaten us.

[00:27:35] But anyway, we'll, we'll not go there. Uh, thank you, Ted. Lovely to hear from you. Finally, we're going to, um, discuss something that has been brought up by Fenton in St. Paul, Minnesota. Uh, I've been an enthusiastic follower of your podcast for several years and have no doubt about the quality of your knowledge. Uh, I was laughing at myself then, uh, analyses and conclusions, which you reach during the discussions. Even when you infer, I don't know, he's talking about you there.

[00:28:03] I just, I just came across the following layperson article, which voices an opinion on sensational results, which make it into the popular press. Several examples pertain to astronomy and astrophysics. Uh, is it worth commenting on this phenomenon in your podcasts? Uh, that comes from Fenton. Thank you, Fenton. Um, Fenton's a regular, lovely to hear from you.

[00:28:27] Um, this is something John T Horner talked about while he filled in for you a couple of months ago, and he was very, very scathing on the way the popular press misinterprets or just goes for the sensationalist headline. And I think we've seen it a bit with the, um, life on the other planet that we talked about earlier, um, K2 18b. There's been a bit of that going on.

[00:28:54] Um, a lot of them have actually been very good and said, look, we don't know. This is what scientists are hoping and thinking and studying, but it's not confirmed. But others have gone, oh, life on another planet. Boom. End of story. Not true. Or they probably put it in the last paragraph. That happens a lot, unfortunately, Fred. We're, I know, I know where John T stands. Uh, I'm sure your, um, thoughts are probably similar.

[00:29:23] They're, they're similar. That's right. Um, it's partly, you know, as scientists in many ways, it's partly our own fault. Um, because we do tend to couch things in maybes and perhapses and possibilities. And of course, that's what the media pick up on. Um, uh, it's, uh, it is hard to avoid that.

[00:29:48] I think, um, we have to be careful. I mean, the, the, the, you know, the story we discussed, uh, a few minutes ago about K2-18b,

[00:29:59] um, a quote from the lead author of the paper was that, um, he says that the most obvious interpretation of the discovery is that the, um, the, uh, planet K2-18b is a Heishan world teeming with life.

[00:30:23] And that's, that's throwing, you know, it's just throwing a grenade into the, uh, the media because they'll pick up on that. And that's the headline, teeming with life. Um, but we've got absolutely no evidence for that. Uh, even if, uh, the observations of these chemicals, uh, is, is confirmed, uh, it's still not proof of living organisms.

[00:30:50] And so to say it's teeming with life, I mean, he didn't say it's teeming with life. He said that the, the, the simplest interpretation of what they found is that that's the case, but that does not mean it is the case. And yes, the media pick up on that. And I'm also reminded, uh, as well as the sorts of discoveries like the phosphine on Venus and all of the other things, um, it's, it seems to be happening less often now.

[00:31:16] But for a while, uh, every, almost every month we got a picture of, um, a doorway on Mars or, uh, you know, a tire on Mars, a truck tire. Uh, there was one which was a bowler hat on Mars. So somebody who had been abducted, um, all of that, which we now know is this phenomenon called pareidolia, where we, we look at things and say, oh, that looks like a bowler hat. Oh, that looks like a tire. We humanize everything. We humanize it. Yes.

[00:31:46] Yeah. And that, that's a great generator of fake news. Absolutely. What? Um, yeah, the, the article that Fenton sent us, I had a look at, and it's got a few examples of fake news and has, as someone who worked in the media for 40 years, I'm very much aware of how some journalists operate, not all, but some don't have the integrity to just stick with the, the facts.

[00:32:12] They want, they want, um, you know, clickbait, I think is the modern term for it. Um, and the, the, the writer of this article, um, very astute, um, gives examples of what turned out to be untrue situations. Um, citing 2014 astronomers announced a whopper of a discovery primordial waves from the earliest moments of the big bang.

[00:32:36] The South Pole telescope results validated longstanding, but still shaky hypothesis of cosmic inflation turned out to be nuts. Yes. Um, and there's a couple of stories like that. Tabby's star in 2015, um, with its strange light pattern. Um, and you know, the popular press latched onto the possibility that it was surrounded by a megastructure built by aliens. A Dyson sphere, that's right. Yeah. It was bust again. Yeah. Uh, and so it goes on.

[00:33:04] Uh, and they actually cite the Venus story that we've talked about a couple of times already, but, um, as we said, it was debunked, but now they're undebunking it. Uh, but it's still got a big question mark over it. And I did a bit of research myself, Fred, to see if I could find any other stories that popped up that turned out to be wrong.

[00:33:24] Uh, 2016, a paper in the Astrophysical Journal Letters suggested that galaxy D4, uh, DF44 was highly unusual, containing an exceptionally high amount of dark matter, at least 98%. Um, they did some, uh, follow-up studies and found out that it had a normal amount of dark matter. Um, because it was, uh, a low mass dwarf galaxy. Yeah. So, yeah. And, and so it goes on.

[00:33:51] Look, I know that a lot of the time this sensationalism is driven by journalists trying to make a headline. And that's, that's what it comes down to. A lot of these papers are published and, and the writer of the article that Fenton refers to said it openly. There's a lot of pressure on scientists and astronomers and physicists and people in the science fraternity to get published.

[00:34:18] And sometimes they'll push the boundaries to get that paper out there and, and get the headline. And the popular press will hone in on, we have found life like, like a fly to a flame. And that's, that's really the, that is the problem. But I, I'd like to say that most people are astute enough to read beyond the opening paragraph. And get to the part where they actually tell you the truth.

[00:34:48] Does it be in there somewhere? Yeah. Yes, that's right. It is. Yeah. It's nearly always in there somewhere. Yeah. No, I, I, I agree with that. And so it sounds as though Johnty said the same thing as what I would have said. He did. Yes. Yes. Um, he was sitting on a wheelchair with a sign and a, yes, that's right. No, he wasn't. Um, kind of looked like him though. Nevermind. Um, but yeah, Fenton, you, you're right. Uh, it is something, uh, that exists.

[00:35:17] Is it something to worry about? Oh gosh, maybe a bit, but I think overall the science fraternities got enough integrity and certainly an abundance of intelligence to get past it and stick to the facts. That's, that's how I read it. Um, yeah, I think that's pretty well all we can say about it. What do you reckon, Fred? Yeah, there's, um, you know, we, there's an almost endless list of things.

[00:35:47] Uh, you know, uh, the Apollo astronauts never went to the moon, another piece of fake news, all of that kind of thing. Uh, it's, um, it's sort of borders into conspiracy theory, uh, some of the time as well. It feeds into the same sort of psychology that, uh, lets people believe conspiracies. Yeah. Yep. People are always looking for something to believe in and quite often they're easily duped and that happens.

[00:36:15] And, and yes, the media needs to take a long, hard look at itself and to use the Australian colloquialism, give themselves an uppercut. And that might solve it. I think so. Yeah. If you don't know what introspection means, it's time you took a long, hard look at yourself. That's, sorry, I couldn't resist. All right. Thank you, Fenton. Uh, that's a, that's a great topic for debate and I hope we get to talk about it again because, um, it won't stop. It just won't stop.

[00:36:45] Um, anyway, all good. Uh, and thanks to all our contributors. Don't forget to contribute yourself. If you have questions for us, send them to us via our website, space nuts podcast.com space nuts.io, uh, if you turn up on a Facebook messenger and things like that. Um, and when I remember to look, I will, I will dig them up, but, uh, yeah, best to go through our website, audio or text. We'll take them both. Uh, or you can send us a carrier pigeon if you can find one that hasn't become extinct.

[00:37:14] Um, and that brings us to the end. Fred, thank you very much. Great pleasure, Andrew. And, uh, um, we will do it again soon. I hope. Yes. Maybe next week or the week after or, you know, something like that. Whenever we can get together. Uh, Fred Watson, astronomer at large. And thanks to Hugh in the studio, although he couldn't be with us today. He was too busy generating fake news. Got back to his old career like that. And from me, Andrew Dunphy, thanks for your company.

[00:37:44] See you on the next episode of space nuts. Bye bye. Space nuts. You'll be listening to the space nuts podcast. It's a complete issue. Available at Apple podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player. You can also stream on demand at bytes.com. This has been another quality podcast production from bytes.com.