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Space Nuts: The M87 Black Hole, a Vanishing Exoplanet and Dragonfly’s Journey to Titan
In this episode of Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson revisit the Event Horizon Telescope’s landmark image of the black hole in galaxy M87 — and explain how a CSIRO team has now independently confirmed it using artificial intelligence. They then investigate an exoplanet that stopped transiting its star, apparently because the gravity of another planet has tilted its orbit out of view. Finally, Andrew and Fred Watson look ahead to NASA’s Dragonfly mission to Titan, where a flying rotorcraft will explore a moon with methane and ethane lakes. You can even send your name along for the ride. Join Andrew and Fred Watson for black holes, shifting planetary orbits and an extraordinary mission to Saturn’s largest moon.
Key topics
- How a CSIRO team used AI to independently validate the M87 black hole image.
- Why independent confirmation is an essential part of the scientific process.
- How gravitational interactions may have tilted exoplanet TOI 2535b’s orbit, making its transits disappear.
- Whether the planet may return to view, and if its unseen neighbour could transit its star.
- NASA’s Dragonfly mission, its planned exploration of Titan and how to send your name.
- Titan’s thick atmosphere, icy surface and lakes of liquid methane and ethane.
- How AI is helping scientists make new discoveries.
Timestamps
00:00 - Introduction and the episode’s cosmic stories
01:30 - The 2028 total solar eclipse across Australia
04:30 - CSIRO independently confirms the M87 black hole image
10:00 - Why independent validation matters in science
13:30 - An exoplanet’s transits disappear from view
17:00 - How another planet’s gravity may be tilting its orbit
20:00 - Could the planet return, or might its neighbour become visible?
23:00 - Send your name to Titan aboard NASA’s Dragonfly mission
26:00 - Titan’s methane lakes and the search for unusual forms of life
29:00 - Can AI accelerate the pace of scientific discovery?
33:00 - Closing conversation and Space Nuts details
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts and we are here to
00:00:04 --> 00:00:07 talk astronomy and space science. My name is
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 Andrew Dunkley, your host and, uh, it's good
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 to have your company. Uh, coming up on this
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 episode, we're going to revisit,
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 uh, the event of 2019, where the event
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 Horizon Telescope, uh, caught
00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 an image of the black hole at the centre of
00:00:23 --> 00:00:26 the M M87 galaxy. So
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 why has it come up again in the news now?
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 Well, it's taken all this time to confirm the
00:00:31 --> 00:00:33 image, believe it or not. We'll tell you all
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 about that. That's a big, uh, big story. Uh,
00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 and with a very strong Australian connection,
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 we're also going to look at, uh, something
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 a little bit different. Uh, an exoplanet
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 that's been observed for the last, uh,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 several years, which vanished.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:53 So where did it go? What did it do? Maybe it
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 didn't like being watched. We will tell you
00:00:56 --> 00:00:58 all about that. And would you like to send
00:00:58 --> 00:01:01 your name, uh, on the Dragonfly
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 mission? You can do that. We'll tell you all
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 about it. If you're looking on YouTube, you
00:01:05 --> 00:01:07 can see behind me. I've already got my
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 boarding pass. That's all coming up on this
00:01:10 --> 00:01:11 episode of space nuts.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 10, 9. Ignition
00:01:17 --> 00:01:18 sequence start.
00:01:18 --> 00:01:19 Generic: Space nuts.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22 Generic: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1, 2, 3, 4,
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 nuts. Astronauts report it feels good.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 Andrew Dunkley: And joining us again is the one and only
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at
00:01:32 --> 00:01:33 large. Hello, Fred Watson.
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 Professor Fred Watson: Hi, Andrew. Good to see you again.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:36 Andrew Dunkley: See you too.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 Professor Fred Watson: Good to see you. Good to see your boarding
00:01:39 --> 00:01:40 pass. When do you. When do you actually
00:01:40 --> 00:01:41 depart?
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 Andrew Dunkley: I can't read the date. It's because
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 on my image it's actually backwards. So, um,
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Hang
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 on, let me have a look. July
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 2028 is the scheduled departure.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Now that's, uh, an interesting date
00:01:58 --> 00:01:59 month, uh, because it's the month that we
00:01:59 --> 00:02:02 have the Australia wide eclipse, the total
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04 eclipse of the sun that will bring
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 pretty well the whole population of the Earth
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 to Australia to watch it.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:09 Andrew Dunkley: To Dubbo.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:10 Professor Fred Watson: To
00:02:10 --> 00:02:10 Andrew Dunkley: Dubbo.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:11 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:13 Andrew Dunkley: We're watching now.
00:02:13 --> 00:02:16 Professor Fred Watson: So I hope there'll be
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 somebody left to light the fuse for, um,
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 Dragonfly when, uh, it lifts
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 Andrew Dunkley: off. Yeah, that's right. It is that date.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 Yeah. Um, now I'm looking
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 forward to that. It's going to be a huge,
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 huge day. Hopefully the weather will be good.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:31 It'll be cold that time of year,
00:02:32 --> 00:02:34 but, uh, it will be really exciting
00:02:34 --> 00:02:37 to have that happen locally. I
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 Think it'll cross the entire continent from
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 the northwest in Western Australia across
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 the Red Centre. Um,
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 excuse the noise, I've got a window open to
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 keep cool and I have
00:02:50 --> 00:02:51 no idea what that is.
00:02:53 --> 00:02:56 Um, anyway, uh, that'll be a really exciting
00:02:56 --> 00:02:58 event in July 2028, um,
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 uh, with the uh, eclipse, uh, crossing
00:03:02 --> 00:03:04 Central Australia, then, uh, blacking out the
00:03:04 --> 00:03:06 town of Bourke and then Dubbo and then
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 Sydney. Sydney will get it. Which
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 reminds me of the event back in the 70s where
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 Melbourne was blacked out by a total solar
00:03:14 --> 00:03:15 eclipse.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 1974. Ish.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 Six, was it six? Might have been six. Yeah. I
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 remember, uh, we had to, uh, go down and stay
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 with a friend. We um, were only kids, so we
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 were um, put in charge of a friend
00:03:29 --> 00:03:30 of the family because Mum and dad had an
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 event to go to and they wouldn't let us
00:03:33 --> 00:03:35 outside because
00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 Professor Fred Watson: they
00:03:37 --> 00:03:38 Andrew Dunkley: just wouldn't let us outside.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:42 Professor Fred Watson: It's one of the challenges we have on the
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 eclipse working group for the Astronomical
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 Society of Australia is getting the message
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 across that um, you know, the time when
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 you need the filters and things is
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 most of it, but there's that few minutes
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 in the middle when you can look directly at
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 the sun and um, everybody should see that.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 It's such a, uh, rare sight to be seeing
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 the sun. Exactly. Blacked out with the corona
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 shining around it. It's quite spine tingling.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. One of the great coincidences,
00:04:12 --> 00:04:15 um, in astronomy is that uh, the
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 distance of the moon from Earth
00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 versus the distance of sun from
00:04:21 --> 00:04:23 the uh, Earth, they're relatively the same
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 size and yeah,
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 Professor Fred Watson: so, yeah, it's 400 times. The moon's
00:04:28 --> 00:04:31 400 times smaller and on average 400 times
00:04:31 --> 00:04:33 nearer. So that is one
00:04:34 --> 00:04:35 doozy of a coincidence. Crazy
00:04:35 --> 00:04:37 Andrew Dunkley: science, isn't it? It really is,
00:04:37 --> 00:04:38 Professor Fred Watson: yeah. Yeah.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, anyway, we'll get to the boarding pass
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 later, but let's, let's get on,
00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 let's get started.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 Let's get on to this really good story which
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 broke three o' clock this morning, our time.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51 Um, by the time you hear this, that'll be
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 five or six years ago. Uh, no, um,
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 but this involves the uh, first
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 ever image of a black
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 hole. The M M87, um,
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 galaxy's black hole centre, uh,
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 was imaged back in 2019, but
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 here we are talking about it again because
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 it's finally been confirmed through
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 scientific work at the csiro. Is that.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 What? Am I right about that? Have I got that
00:05:19 --> 00:05:19 right?
00:05:20 --> 00:05:21 Professor Fred Watson: That's exactly right, Andrew. Okay,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:22 Andrew Dunkley: the next
00:05:22 --> 00:05:22 Professor Fred Watson: story
00:05:22 --> 00:05:24 Andrew Dunkley: we're going to talk about today is. No, I'M
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 Professor Fred Watson: kidding. Well,
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 there's not that much more to say except it
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 is, um, you know, it's a remarkable story
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 of, uh, Australian ingenuity. I think we
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 can say that this is a very small team
00:05:37 --> 00:05:39 compared with the cast of thousands that were
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 involved in securing the image. Uh,
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 originally, uh, if I remember rightly, there
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 were nine radio astronomy
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 observatories, uh, are all
00:05:49 --> 00:05:52 working together. Um, they were all on one
00:05:52 --> 00:05:53 side of the Earth. Sadly, that did not
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 include any of the Australian radio astronomy
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 observatories because we were facing the
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 other way. Um, but, um, I do
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 remember the crucial aspect of it was,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 uh, to get the timing right. Uh,
00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 and I think for that reason, if I remember it
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 kind of dragging up now, memories from
00:06:12 --> 00:06:15 2019, um, I think there were
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 all these atomic clocks that were taken to
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 each of the observatories so that they were
00:06:19 --> 00:06:22 all synchronised. And uh, that meant that the
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 timing was able to be used in order to
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 actually secure these observations.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 I mean, it is an extraordinary,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 uh, observation to make. And
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 that's why the Event Horizon Telescope image,
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 and that's Event Horizon Telescope was this
00:06:40 --> 00:06:42 configuration of all these different radio
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 observatories. That's where their image is so
00:06:46 --> 00:06:48 remarkable. Uh, um, one of the
00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 CSIRO team has
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 commented that, um, basically,
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 um, in terms of the sort of
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 scale of what's happening, uh, it's like
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 standing in your backyard. This is a quote.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 It's like standing in your backyard and
00:07:04 --> 00:07:06 trying to take a photo of a doughnut on the
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 moon. That's the same
00:07:10 --> 00:07:11 angular resolution.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:12 Andrew Dunkley: Orange frosted doughnut.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:15 Professor Fred Watson: Orange frosted. That's right. Yes, it was.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 And a bit thicker on one side than the other.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 Um, so what's, um,
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 the reason why this is big time and it
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 actually is a headline paper in uh, Nature
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 magazine this morning. Uh, I was very
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 impressed with that to see our, uh, science
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 agency getting the accolades on a global
00:07:32 --> 00:07:33 scale. Um,
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 the quote in the press release is that the
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 new approach reduces the effect
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 of calibration errors and
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 subjective image processing decisions which
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 have challenged astronomers for decades. Uh,
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 and I might just continue. The quote from
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 this is from one of the scientists involved
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 at csiro. Our small Australian team
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 developed advanced machine learning and
00:08:00 --> 00:08:03 artificial intelligence techniques to capture
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 the information about the black hole
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 structure and, um, filter out atmospheric
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 interference. When we applied it to the
00:08:10 --> 00:08:12 original Event Horizon telescope data set,
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 we found a black hole almost identical in
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 size and shape as the historic EHT image.
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 Importantly, um, our model had no idea of
00:08:21 --> 00:08:23 what a black hole looked like when we applied
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 to the M87 data. This is the first truly
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 independent validation of the EHT
00:08:30 --> 00:08:31 image, an important step in the scientific
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 process and that, uh, you know, one has to
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 applaud these scientists for taking that
00:08:36 --> 00:08:36 step.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and you just said the golden words. Uh,
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 it's a very important step in the
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 scientific process because you can discover
00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 something, but it's not really discovered
00:08:47 --> 00:08:48 until someone else can
00:08:50 --> 00:08:51 ratify your findings.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:53 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's
00:08:53 --> 00:08:54 Andrew Dunkley: right.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. In fact, I've been, um,
00:08:57 --> 00:09:00 doing, uh, a historical talk
00:09:00 --> 00:09:02 not very long ago that's on exactly that. And
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 that's because, uh, with the General Theory
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 of relativity published in 1915, um,
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 we all think that the 1919 eclipse
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 was the one that, uh, demonstrated
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 the movement in the apparent position of
00:09:17 --> 00:09:19 stars around the eclipsed sun. That told you
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 that relativity, uh, was correct. But in,
00:09:23 --> 00:09:26 um, that was an observation probably very
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 similar in impact and
00:09:28 --> 00:09:30 impetus to what we're talking about with the
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 Event Horizon Telescope. But a lot of people
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 didn't believe it, um, and that's partly
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 because some of the data were thrown away
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 because of faulty focus. And it was only in
00:09:39 --> 00:09:42 1922 and there was an eclipse, uh,
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 in Australia very similar to the one we're
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 gonna see in 2028 that was thoroughly well
00:09:47 --> 00:09:49 observed. And sure enough, it
00:09:50 --> 00:09:53 independently proved the existence or the
00:09:53 --> 00:09:56 correctness of General rel in perhaps
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 a similar way to what this CSIRO work has
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 demonstrated with the M87 black hole,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 uh, image, uh, which is quite remarkable. I
00:10:05 --> 00:10:07 mean, the image itself is dramatic
00:10:08 --> 00:10:10 with that ring, um, being a, ah,
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 genuine astrophysical feature, uh,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 rather than something that's introduced
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 during, you know, during the image
00:10:17 --> 00:10:17 processing.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 Andrew Dunkley: So has the CSIRO released an image?
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 Professor Fred Watson: There are images, yes. I'm sorry, I didn't
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 actually attach, uh, one to the
00:10:27 --> 00:10:29 image. But there are images. Yeah, you'll
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 find it very quickly. In fact, there's a
00:10:31 --> 00:10:34 movie as well, um, which I haven't
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 really looked at in detail, so I'm not sure
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 exactly what that's depicting. But the main
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 image is very similar. Uh, even though
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 it's completely independently arrived at the
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 main image is very similar to what we were
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 talking about, uh, back in the day in
00:10:49 --> 00:10:49 2019.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Uh, yeah, if you do a CSIRO
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 M, uh, M87 black hole image search on Google
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 or any search engine, you will find it.
00:10:59 --> 00:11:02 I just found it, uh, then, and it is. Yeah,
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 you can see that it's an exact
00:11:04 --> 00:11:05 replica. Really isn't.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:09 Professor Fred Watson: Looks a bit sharper to me, but maybe. Yeah,
00:11:09 --> 00:11:11 you're right. Yeah,
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 Andrew Dunkley: yeah. Uh, and of course we've since
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 Got an image of the um, of Sagittarius
00:11:18 --> 00:11:19 A, haven't we?
00:11:20 --> 00:11:21 Professor Fred Watson: We have indeed, that's correct, yes.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 Andrew Dunkley: Have we taken any others? I don't think it's
00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 that easy is it?
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 Professor Fred Watson: That's right because what you're doing is
00:11:28 --> 00:11:29 you're seizing half the world's radio
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 telescopes and um, making them look
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 at something and coordinate in a way that I
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 think is quite extraordinary. They don't
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 normally do that sort of coordination with
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 the atomic clocks and things that I was
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 talking about. So yeah, remarkable
00:11:44 --> 00:11:45 observations
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 Andrew Dunkley: indeed. And they've published their findings
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 in Nature and it's fresh uh,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 news. It should be popping up on quite a few
00:11:53 --> 00:11:55 science platforms if you want to look for it.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:57 But uh, M87
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 black uh, hole image has been confirmed by
00:12:01 --> 00:12:02 the CSIRO in Australia.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 This is Space Nuts, you're with Andrew
00:12:05 --> 00:12:07 Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 Voice Over Guy: 0G and I feel fine. Space
00:12:12 --> 00:12:13 Nuts.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 Andrew Dunkley: Okay Fred Watson, uh, from ah, something
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 at the M. M87 galaxy to an
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 exoplanet designated TOI
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 2535b which
00:12:24 --> 00:12:26 they've been looking at for quite a while
00:12:26 --> 00:12:28 until they couldn't look at it anymore
00:12:28 --> 00:12:31 because it disappeared. Uh,
00:12:31 --> 00:12:32 what's the story here?
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 Professor Fred Watson: Um, yeah, so toi, uh, target of
00:12:36 --> 00:12:39 interest M. It basically
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 was one of the uh, I think it was discovered
00:12:42 --> 00:12:45 actually by the Kepler uh, spacecraft
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 and then followed up by NASA's
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite or
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 TESS, which m observed it
00:12:53 --> 00:12:56 for well 7um
00:12:56 --> 00:12:59 between April 2019 the ELT
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 year if I put it that way, um, not the
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 ELT, I mean the EHT uh year,
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 um that uh, uh between 2019
00:13:08 --> 00:13:11 and uh, 2026. And the
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 thing about this planet is it
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 goes round its parent star in eight and
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19 a quarter Earth days. So
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 it's whizzing around which means it's a ah,
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 hot Jupiter. It's very close
00:13:24 --> 00:13:24 Andrew Dunkley: to the
00:13:25 --> 00:13:27 Professor Fred Watson: star. Yeah. And so um,
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 uh the way
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 you observe a planet like this is to
00:13:35 --> 00:13:37 watch it transiting uh, in front of
00:13:37 --> 00:13:40 its parent star. That means the parent star's
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 light dims very slightly. Uh, it's only
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 a small amount in the case of Jupiter passing
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 in front of the sun. If you were looking at
00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 that from outside the solar system, you'd see
00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 it dimmed the Sun's light dim by 1%.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 Uh, it's that sort of level. Um and so
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 um, these are quite difficult observations.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 But what always clinches it with an
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 exoplanet is when you can determine a
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 period. As I've said, this is eight and a
00:14:05 --> 00:14:07 quarter Earth days. Uh, that's how long it
00:14:07 --> 00:14:09 takes the thing to go around once. So you get
00:14:09 --> 00:14:11 a transit across the planet,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 across the star. The star's light dims
00:14:15 --> 00:14:17 slightly. Eight and a quarter days later, the
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 same thing happens. And that repeatedly
00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 happens over seven years. So you pretty sure
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 that this is something stable. But here's the
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25 mystery. Then it stops.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:29 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I mean, eight and a quarter days
00:14:29 --> 00:14:31 orbit is a very good candidate for
00:14:31 --> 00:14:33 observation because you get to see it quite a
00:14:33 --> 00:14:34 lot.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Um, however,
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 there's a tweak to it and that
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 is, um, that when these. Because
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 it's been observed so thoroughly, it means
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 you can really look at the details. And
00:14:49 --> 00:14:50 apparently TOI
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 2535b, this planet we're
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 talking about, quite often it would
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 cross, um, its star's disc
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 six hours early or sometimes
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 six hours late. And that
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 means that something else is happening
00:15:08 --> 00:15:10 here. Um, and
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 so that, um, change in the time of
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 transit, the occasional changes in the
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 time of transit, suggests that there
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 is another planet in that system
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 that may not be in an
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 orbit that passes in front of the star,
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 which is the key thing here. If that's in an
00:15:32 --> 00:15:34 orbit that's slightly tilted, then you don't
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 see it crossing the other star. But if you've
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 got funny effects happening to your target of
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 interest, 23, 53, 25,
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 35B, then, um,
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 that's telling you that there is something
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 else there. And so the
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 fact that perhaps, uh, there is a
00:15:51 --> 00:15:54 tilt in the orbit of this, um,
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 invisible or unseen planet, it
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 suggests that maybe the gravitational pull
00:16:00 --> 00:16:02 has pulled TOI
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 2535B out of
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 its existing orbit. And so,
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 um, it no longer passes in front of its
00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 parent star, which is why it is apparently
00:16:13 --> 00:16:14 disappeared.
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Could it have just been bumped out of
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 the way by something? Is that possible?
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 Professor Fred Watson: But yeah, by the other planet, the invisible
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 planet that we don't see. It's been. I mean,
00:16:23 --> 00:16:24 I'm
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 Andrew Dunkley: talking collision rather than tug of war.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:29 Professor Fred Watson: No, no, I think it's. I, um, think the
00:16:29 --> 00:16:31 thinking is it's very much a tug of war
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 rather than a. Rather than a, uh, uh,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35 Andrew Dunkley: collision. It's been yanked out of position
00:16:36 --> 00:16:36 and.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 Professor Fred Watson: Exactly.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:37 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 Professor Fred Watson: Um, there is a nice quote from Samuel, uh,
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 Yee, who's, uh, University of California, one
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 of the, uh, members of the team. Uh, we think
00:16:46 --> 00:16:47 of the universe as resembling clockwork.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 Well, actually, I don't, but most people
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 perhaps do where everything is regular. But
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 that's not true. If there are multiple
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 planets in a system, they can affect each
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 Other's orbits. We know of a few systems that
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 are like this, but this is the most extreme
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 example we've seen. Because the two planets
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 are interacting so strongly, the planet's
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 orbit is tilting so quickly
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 that its transit disappeared while we were
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 watching. Quite remarkable. And it's amazing
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 to think of that whole planet having its
00:17:16 --> 00:17:19 orbit shifted by something else that we don't
00:17:19 --> 00:17:20 see.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it certainly goes to show how much
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 power there is out there in
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 terms of the gravitational forces at play,
00:17:28 --> 00:17:29 doesn't it?
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, that's right, it does. It tells you
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 gravity is pretty strong, um, even though
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 it's the weakest of all the fundamentals,
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 mental forces. But so what
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 happens when scientists find something like
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 this? They build models, as you would.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47 Uh, and so what they've done is they've
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 modelled, um, this
00:17:50 --> 00:17:53 change in the tilt of the orbit of the
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 planet, uh, and looked at
00:17:56 --> 00:17:59 how that might play out in the future. Ah.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 And they are saying they think it'll come
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 back maybe something upwards of
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 30 years time. We might start to see it
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 again. But the other possibility, and
00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 everybody will be looking out for this, you
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 can be sure that neighbour that
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 pulled it out of its normal
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 orbit might also start crossing
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 the face of the star. So we might eventually
00:18:22 --> 00:18:23 be able to see the object that has
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 gravitationally shifted, uh,
00:18:26 --> 00:18:28 2535 B into its new
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30 orbit. We might be able to see them both, not
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 necessarily simultaneously, but, um,
00:18:33 --> 00:18:35 know what they are. Guess the way you
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 distinguish one from the other is that if
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 that invisible planet is a different size
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 from uh, 2535 B
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 then uh, it will give you a different
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 signal as it crosses the disc of the star.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 Because, uh, a bigger planet will give a
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 deeper, uh, um, darkening of the
00:18:55 --> 00:18:56 star's brightness.
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 Andrew Dunkley: And just to throw a spanner into the works
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01 and confuse people. Cause we get questions
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 about this type of thing. This all happened
00:19:03 --> 00:19:04 1000 years ago.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Uh, but I
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 remember it quite well. Andrew, you know,
00:19:11 --> 00:19:12 Andrew Dunkley: he beat me to it.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:17 Yeah, it's. It's crazy though, isn't it that,
00:19:17 --> 00:19:19 um, everything we look at is history, Even,
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20 Even the moon.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 Professor Fred Watson: It is, yes. Um, we might, yes,
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 we might talk about that a bit later on
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28 because in our next episode, I think we've
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 got some upcoming questions that. Look at
00:19:30 --> 00:19:30 that.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 Andrew Dunkley: We probably have. Yes, we do get questions
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 about that, that kind of thing a lot. But uh,
00:19:36 --> 00:19:37 if you'd like to read about it, it's on the
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 space.com website. I'm sure there's
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 a published paper of some kind somewhere or
00:19:43 --> 00:19:44 they've just released a statement at this
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 stage, perhaps, or a media release. But, um,
00:19:47 --> 00:19:49 yeah, it's a really fascinating story about
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 TOI, uh,
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 2535B. Such, uh,
00:19:55 --> 00:19:57 complicated names. I can never remember them
00:19:57 --> 00:19:58 either, for some reason.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 This is Space Nuts. You're with Andrew
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03 Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 Generic: Hey, that's one of the better sims, believe
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 me. We've had a couple of cardiac arrests
00:20:09 --> 00:20:11 down here too, Pete. There wasn't any tiny
00:20:11 --> 00:20:12 for that up here.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:14 Voice Over Guy: Space Nuts.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17 Andrew Dunkley: Our last story, Fred Watson, uh,
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 is a NASA story. It's about an
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 upcoming mission called the Dragonfly
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 mission. Uh, but the difference with this
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 is, uh. It's not,
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 um, a media release
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 that, uh, has been sent out by NASA saying,
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 this is what we're doing, this is how we're
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 doing it, this is why we're doing it. This is
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 all about. This is a different way of
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 publicising an event by getting people
00:20:41 --> 00:20:43 involved. And I've fallen
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 for it hook, line and sinker.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:48 Professor Fred Watson: That's good.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I did have an image. I did have
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54 an image behind me of my boarding pass for
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 the Dragonfly mission. But, um,
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 I'd say there was an Internet glitch that's
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 knocked it off. So I'm back to looking
00:21:02 --> 00:21:03 at my boring office.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 Professor Fred Watson: Um, it's not that boring. It's not as
00:21:07 --> 00:21:08 boring as mine is. Probably
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 Andrew Dunkley: yours. It's got books. Mine. Mine's just got
00:21:12 --> 00:21:12 a fan.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:15 Professor Fred Watson: My
00:21:15 --> 00:21:15 Andrew Dunkley: only fan.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:18 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. And yes, your only fan. It's got a lot
00:21:18 --> 00:21:19 of your microphone in as well.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. If I push it away, you won't be able to
00:21:23 --> 00:21:24 hear me. That's the problem.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 Professor Fred Watson: We've had that conversation before. Anyway,
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 returning to your Dragonfly boarding pass.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31 I'm sorry, I scuppered that. There
00:21:31 --> 00:21:32 Andrew Dunkley: it
00:21:32 --> 00:21:34 Professor Fred Watson: was. Because I was, um, looking for it in the
00:21:34 --> 00:21:36 background and couldn't see it. But you've
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 got. It means that, uh,
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 your name will. As I understand it, I
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 think it'll be inscribed on,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 um, a chip of some sort. Uh, whether it's
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 a digital chip that'll be
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 put into digitally or whether it's something
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56 that it'll be inscribed on the outside of.
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 Um, I don't know. But that means
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 that Andrew Dunkley is going to
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 Saturn. Yes,
00:22:03 --> 00:22:03 Andrew Dunkley: M.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, so, uh,
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 if anybody else. I'm
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11 Andrew Dunkley: going to drag and drop the boarding pass to
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 our live audience so that they can see it.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:15 Professor Fred Watson: You're going to drag and drop it rather than
00:22:15 --> 00:22:16 Dragonfly it?
00:22:17 --> 00:22:19 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Well, I could do both. No, I don't
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 think I can. Don't think I can.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:24 Professor Fred Watson: Never Mind.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 Andrew Dunkley: Sorry, go on. I keep interrupting.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 Professor Fred Watson: It is quite all right. No, it's an
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30 interruptible story is this, uh, I was just
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 going to say if anybody um, in our um, you
00:22:33 --> 00:22:34 know, the three people who listen to
00:22:34 --> 00:22:37 Spacenuts, if any them want to join
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39 Andrew Dunkley on um, the Dragonfly
00:22:40 --> 00:22:41 spacecraft, you've got to do it before the
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 15th of January 2027. But you can do it
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 by um, heading to NASA's
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 Dragonfly, uh, website. I haven't got a link
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 directly here but it'll be very easy to find.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 Andrew Dunkley: NASA.govdragonfly
00:22:56 --> 00:22:56 we'll do
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 Professor Fred Watson: it. It's pretty easy. Yeah,
00:22:57 --> 00:22:58 Andrew Dunkley: yeah.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 Professor Fred Watson: Um, so that's the story with the
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 uh, I guess with the boarding pass and the
00:23:04 --> 00:23:05 names going on board the spacecraft. And I
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 think you're absolutely right Andrew. That's
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 way for NASA to publicise this mission.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 Um, but I think what's more, in many ways
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 more heart stopping is the mission itself.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 Uh, because this is going to be the second
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 helicopter that humankind has
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24 ever sent into space. I believe it's an
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 octocopter. It's a drone, very
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 sophisticated looking drone, uh, which
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 will benefit from the fact that Titan has a
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 thick atmosphere. If I remember rightly, it's
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 about 50% higher uh, in pressure than
00:23:38 --> 00:23:40 ours is on Earth. It's pretty
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 opaque, um, at least seen from above. You
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 really can't see much of the surface of
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 Titan, which is how we know so
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 much about it because of radar measurements
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 rather than direct imaging. And Titan, just
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 to throw in um, a. Ah, quick backstory.
00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 Is the biggest moon of Saturn, second biggest
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 moon in the solar system, bigger than the
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 planet Mercury, and has a frozen
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 solid water surface ice, uh,
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 at minus 200 or so degrees Celsius,
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 um, and that behaves like rock. And in the
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 depressions in that surface there are lakes
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17 and seas of liquid natural gas,
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 ethane and methane. What a fantastic place
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 to send um, a drone to,
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 to scout out what there is there, uh, and
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 how things look on the surface of a moon
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 so different from our own planet and yet
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 sharing the one thing that's different about
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 our planet, which is a liquid surface
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 in equilibrium with its atmosphere. These
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 lakes and seas, quite remarkable,
00:24:43 --> 00:24:45 Andrew Dunkley: you know when you're getting close to Titan
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 because there's a warning sign that says
00:24:46 --> 00:24:47 flammable liquid.
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Do not drop a
00:24:51 --> 00:24:51 match.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54 Andrew Dunkley: I don't think you're allowed to take anything
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 like matches or
00:24:55 --> 00:24:56 Professor Fred Watson: uh,
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 Andrew Dunkley: fire starters or anything like that.
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you're probably pretty safe. Cause I
00:25:00 --> 00:25:01 don't think there's any oxygen in its
00:25:01 --> 00:25:02 atmosphere. So
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 Andrew Dunkley: uh, it's a strange place and it's one of the
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 places in the solar system where they're
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10 considering there could be different
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 forms of life that have adapted to such
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 an unusual environment. At least unusual to
00:25:16 --> 00:25:17 us.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, uh, you're right. Who knows?
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 But it's one of the places, you know, when we
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 talk about, um, the mantra for astrobiology
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 is follow the water. Uh, and people
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 say, oh, well, are you thinking about the
00:25:31 --> 00:25:34 possibility of non water based life forms?
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 And Titan is exactly where people think about
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 that because liquid ethane and methane might
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 well be um, uh, a working
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 fluid for a very unusual form of life.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 And um, you know, it might be crawling all
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 over the Dragonfly by the time we uh, get the
00:25:49 --> 00:25:51 spacecraft, uh, to have a look around.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, who knows? But uh, yes, I've sent the
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 links to our live audience so they can have a
00:25:57 --> 00:25:57 Professor Fred Watson: look.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, but if you would like to get your name on
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03 the Dragonfly mission, you can do it at
00:26:03 --> 00:26:04 NASA.gov
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 dragonfly um, Fred Watson, I've got a
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 question without notice from our live
00:26:10 --> 00:26:11 audience if you want to tackle it.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 I think we have raised this issue before so
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 it might be fresh in your mind. Uh, this
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 comes from. I um,
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 think this is his business name. Dmt Guitars.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:25 Um, I love guitars. I've got a guitar in the
00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 cupboard back there. My son's actually got my
00:26:28 --> 00:26:29 real guitar and he's never giving it back
00:26:29 --> 00:26:32 because it's um, it's a nice piece. It's
00:26:32 --> 00:26:35 a, it's a hummingbird. Anyway, um,
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 the question says, uh, do you think the rate
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 of new discoveries will increase with how
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 good AI is getting?
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 Professor Fred Watson: Um, I think it's already happening. Um, and
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 in fact, uh, the story that we've
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 talked about to kick off this episode
00:26:53 --> 00:26:55 of spacenuts used AI,
00:26:55 --> 00:26:58 uh, uh, in the
00:26:58 --> 00:27:01 reconstruction of the uh, Event Horizon
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 telescope image of M87. Uh,
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 and that's typical of how AI
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 is beginning to be used by scientists to do
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 things that has eluded us,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 uh, across the whole of science, where
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 I read obviously science news bulletins,
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 start my day off every day doing that. And
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 everywhere you look, biology, geology,
00:27:25 --> 00:27:28 space physics, astronomy, physics, AI
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 is playing a part. So I think we are going to
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 see an increase in the rate of discovery.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 Um, uh, you probably know, uh, Andrew, from
00:27:37 --> 00:27:39 recent news media releases
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 that it's more or less, um, put a stop to
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 mathematics, um, because it's.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 AIs produce the answers to
00:27:48 --> 00:27:50 so many theorems that have not, you know,
00:27:50 --> 00:27:51 they've not had an answer before.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I Saw one the other day and it's a.
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 It's a, uh. It's a mathematical problem that
00:27:57 --> 00:27:59 they've been trying to solve for like 52
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 years. And they uploaded
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 it to some AI system and it went
00:28:05 --> 00:28:06 like that. Done.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that might be the one that there was a
00:28:08 --> 00:28:11 million dollar prize for as well. That was
00:28:11 --> 00:28:12 the one. I see it up.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. That was it. Yeah. I
00:28:14 --> 00:28:16 Professor Fred Watson: actually think m. When you. When you look,
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 uh, in detail at it, I think there were seven
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 different attempts with AI
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 before it finally cracked it. But, uh, it did
00:28:24 --> 00:28:24 crack it. I
00:28:24 --> 00:28:25 Andrew Dunkley: would
00:28:25 --> 00:28:25 Professor Fred Watson: have only
00:28:25 --> 00:28:26 Andrew Dunkley: read the headline.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:28 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you read. That's right. But you know
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 that, um, that does suggest that, um,
00:28:33 --> 00:28:34 we're in a different regime, particularly
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 with mathematics. Yeah, interesting.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I was talking taught in radio
00:28:40 --> 00:28:42 journalism that if you're. If you're looking
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 for stories and you're reading newspapers,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47 just read the first two paragraphs because
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 the rest will just be the same story repeated
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 with different words.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:53 Professor Fred Watson: That
00:28:53 --> 00:28:54 Andrew Dunkley: way you can get through them faster.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 Professor Fred Watson: It's a bit like space nuts, isn't it? You
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 just listen to the intro and the rest isn't
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 Andrew Dunkley: anything. Then you can go away. But, uh,
00:29:01 --> 00:29:02 Professor Fred Watson: yeah,
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 Andrew Dunkley: we don't get paid
00:29:04 --> 00:29:04 Professor Fred Watson: if
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 Andrew Dunkley: people cut us off before the end. That's the
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 problem, actually. We don't get paid at all,
00:29:09 --> 00:29:09 but.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:11 Professor Fred Watson: No, we don't, do we? No.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, well, that's life, you know, that's,
00:29:16 --> 00:29:17 uh, that's the way it goes. Thanks for the
00:29:17 --> 00:29:20 question. Um, not usually a Q and A episode,
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 but we had a few minutes so we. We threw it
00:29:22 --> 00:29:22 in.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:24 Professor Fred Watson: Um, sounds
00:29:24 --> 00:29:26 Andrew Dunkley: like the gardeners. The gardener's passing
00:29:26 --> 00:29:26 by.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 Professor Fred Watson: Just for the record. Yeah, Mine is a. Mine's
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 a Gibson Blue Ridge custom. It's a
00:29:33 --> 00:29:33 Andrew Dunkley: flat top.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:34 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:34 Andrew Dunkley: From
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 Professor Fred Watson: 1968. And it still plays,
00:29:38 --> 00:29:39 uh, with a very angelic voice.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I have not played my guitar for a long
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 time and for so long the tips of my fingers
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 are, uh, soft again. Which means if I ever
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 pull it out and start giving it a bit of a
00:29:52 --> 00:29:54 go, uh, it's going to hurt.
00:29:55 --> 00:29:57 Professor Fred Watson: It will hurt, but it won't hurt for long.
00:29:57 --> 00:29:58 That's the. No, they'll
00:29:58 --> 00:29:58 Andrew Dunkley: harden
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 Professor Fred Watson: up. They'll come back. They do harden up.
00:30:04 --> 00:30:05 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. You can always tell if someone's a
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 guitar player because the tips of one hand.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 Hand are usually, uh, hard. The other hand's.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:11 All right.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15 Professor Fred Watson: You can tell more than that. Um, because if
00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 you look at my other hand, I've got long
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 fingernails. And that's because I play
00:30:20 --> 00:30:20 fingerstyle.
00:30:21 --> 00:30:22 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Okay.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 Professor Fred Watson: Don't use a plectrum. That's crass.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:27 Well,
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 Andrew Dunkley: I'm a crass player then. I can't
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 do the finger thing. Uh, if you want to hear
00:30:33 --> 00:30:34 a good guitarist, listen to my brother.
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 Father. He is amazing. Steve,
00:30:36 --> 00:30:37 Professor Fred Watson: congratulations.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 Andrew Dunkley: He can play anything. He's incredible. Well,
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 he made a career out of it, um, doing the
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 Newcastle pub circuit. So, um,
00:30:44 --> 00:30:46 yeah, he was in several very m
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 locally famous bands in Newcastle back in the
00:30:50 --> 00:30:53 day. Uh, the world's changed. You don't see
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 that much live music anymore.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So I supported myself through
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 my master's degree playing in folk clubs in
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04 Scotland and Northern England. And
00:31:05 --> 00:31:07 that sort of thing doesn't happen
00:31:07 --> 00:31:10 anymore. Just a few places. They were
00:31:10 --> 00:31:12 everywhere. This is the late 60s and early
00:31:12 --> 00:31:14 70s. Um, it was.
00:31:14 --> 00:31:17 So, as you probably know, I used to play
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 alongside some people who became very famous.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:20 Like Jerry Rafferty.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:21 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:31:21 --> 00:31:24 Professor Fred Watson: And that dude Billy Connolly, whoever he was.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:26 Still is good on him.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Um, and our, ah, guitar maker,
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 ah, listener has just messaged and said he
00:31:32 --> 00:31:34 started making his own guitars because he
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 couldn't afford a new one. And his guitars
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39 are made from stainless steel.
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 Okay, that would sound really.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 I wonder how they would sound. That would be
00:31:46 --> 00:31:47 incredible.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 Professor Fred Watson: Well, ah, a Dobro is made of
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52 steel, isn't it? Um,
00:31:52 --> 00:31:53 Andrew Dunkley: I don't know.
00:31:54 --> 00:31:57 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think a Dobro steel. And ah, what's
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 the other? Um, steel guitar. I can't remember
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 the name of it. It's going back too many
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 years. Anyway, this is not about
00:32:04 --> 00:32:04 guitars.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:08 Andrew Dunkley: No, it's not. No. My brother's got, I think
00:32:08 --> 00:32:10 seven. Seven guitars. Um, a few
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 Fender Stratocasters, a couple of Gibsons.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 Yeah, he's, he's, he's guitar nut. But,
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18 uh, anyway, we got, of course. But, um,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20 thanks for the question. Lovely to hear from
00:32:20 --> 00:32:20 you.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 And I think we're just about done
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 for today. We got there eventually, but,
00:32:27 --> 00:32:29 uh, yeah, you can check out all those, um,
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 all those stories in our show notes and thank
00:32:32 --> 00:32:33 you, Fred Watson. We'll catch you on the next
00:32:33 --> 00:32:33 episode.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36 Professor Fred Watson: We'll sing along together again. Thanks,
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37 Andrew.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:40 Andrew Dunkley: You can sing. I'll just listen. I
00:32:40 --> 00:32:42 couldn't sing to save my life. Thanks,
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44 Fred Watson. Professor Fred Watson Watson,
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45 astronomer at large between episodes too.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 Don't forget to visit us on our, uh, social
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 media platforms. Uh,
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 spacenutspodcast.com is our website. If you'd
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 like to go there. You can send us a note or a
00:32:54 --> 00:32:56 question or just have a look around. There's
00:32:56 --> 00:32:59 a great shop and you can sign up for the
00:32:59 --> 00:33:02 astronomy newsletter and so many other
00:33:02 --> 00:33:04 things. And thanks to Huw in the studio who
00:33:04 --> 00:33:06 couldn't be with us today. Today because he's
00:33:06 --> 00:33:08 decided to learn the guitar for the first
00:33:08 --> 00:33:11 time in his life and at his age. Um, I
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 wish him luck. And from me, Andrew Dunkley,
00:33:14 --> 00:33:15 thanks for your company. We'll catch you on
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17 the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye. Bye.
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 You've been listening to the Space
00:33:20 --> 00:33:21 Voice Over Guy: Nuts podcast,
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