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Life on Mars? New Black Hole Stars and Quasi Moons
In this riveting episode of Space Nuts, hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson delve into some of the most exciting developments in astronomy. From the tantalising possibility of past life on Mars to the discovery of a new class of black hole stars, this episode is brimming with cosmic revelations that will keep you on the edge of your seat.
Episode Highlights:
- Evidence of Life on Mars: The hosts discuss recent claims about the discovery of biological processes on Mars, focusing on a rock sample named Chavaja Falls. They explore the implications of "leopard spots" and the potential for past life, while emphasising the need for further analysis and sample return missions.
- New Class of Black Hole Stars: Andrew and Fred Watson examine the evolving understanding of red dots detected by the James Webb Telescope. What was once thought to be galaxies may actually be gigantic stars with black holes at their centres, reshaping our understanding of the early universe.
- Quasi Moons: The episode wraps up with a discussion on the latest quasi moon discovered orbiting Earth. The hosts explain the unique characteristics of these objects and their temporary nature, as well as the implications for future studies.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. Once again,
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 this is Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy
00:00:05 --> 00:00:07 and space science, uh, of all kinds,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 not just the ordinary kind. Uh, my name is
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 Andrew Dunkley, I'm your host and it's great
00:00:13 --> 00:00:15 to have your company again. Coming up in this
00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 episode, have we found evidence that, uh,
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 life once existed on Mars? If you read the
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 popular press, definitely it's life. It's
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 there. But, uh, it could be something else.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:29 Uh, scientists may have discovered a new
00:00:29 --> 00:00:32 class of black hole stars. What's that
00:00:32 --> 00:00:34 all about? I think it's something we've
00:00:34 --> 00:00:35 already talked about. And we said it was
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 something else. Well, now it's something else
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 again. And another
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 quasi moon attaches itself to Earth
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 just like a house fly. That's all coming up
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 in this episode of space nuts. 15
00:00:49 --> 00:00:49 seconds.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 Voice Over Guy: Guidance is internal. 10,
00:00:52 --> 00:00:55 9. Ignition sequence start.
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,
00:00:58 --> 00:01:00 2. 5, 4, 3, two, one.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04 good.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 Andrew Dunkley: And giggling in the background there like a.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:09 Ah, toddler who's found a kitten is Professor
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 Fred Watson Watter, an astronomer at large.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 Hello, Fred Watson.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 Professor Fred Watson: Hi, Andrew. It's funny you should mention
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 that we did find a couple of kittens not very
00:01:17 --> 00:01:17 long ago.
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, yeah, they're everywhere. I think,
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 I think cats are starting to out, um, outgrow
00:01:23 --> 00:01:26 the, the growth rate of another pest
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28 species in this country, which is the
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 kangaroo. Um, but yeah, feral
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 cats, wow. They're one of the biggest
00:01:32 --> 00:01:33 problems in the world.
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 Professor Fred Watson: They certainly are, especially in areas like
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 yours. We keep ours under a short leash just
00:01:39 --> 00:01:41 to make sure they don't go feral and give
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 them a talking to every day. Um,
00:01:45 --> 00:01:46 anyway, yeah, yes.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 Andrew Dunkley: I've noticed on Instagram people post a lot
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 of cat videos and one of the common threads
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 at the moment is cats sneaking into the house
00:01:54 --> 00:01:56 with a mouse and dropping it in the pot of
00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 food. And I'm thinking, hang on a minute,
00:01:59 --> 00:02:01 there are too many of these for it all to be
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 happening regularly. I think
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 they're AI, they're AI. And it's starting to
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 annoy me that there's so much of this garbage
00:02:11 --> 00:02:11 that's being.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I heard this morning
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 about, um, AI, uh, all about animals doing
00:02:17 --> 00:02:19 funny things. Somebody was talking about
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 rabbits bouncing on a trampoline.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:23 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I've seen that one.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, Grandma was very impressed and uh,
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 granddaughter said, grandma, it's AI.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's fake. Yeah. And, and look,
00:02:32 --> 00:02:33 they're very clever and they're very good,
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 but I don't want to see it if it's not real.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:36 It's not real.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's Right.
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 Andrew Dunkley: It doesn't matter how clever the. The
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 artificial intelligence is,
00:02:42 --> 00:02:44 it's not real and it just annoys me.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:47 Anyway, that's just me.
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 Professor Fred Watson: Um, so if you're a creator of,
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 uh, AI Rubbish watching this show, don't, uh,
00:02:54 --> 00:02:55 worry. Andrew doesn't mean it, really.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 Andrew Dunkley: Well, I mean it to a certain degree. I mean,
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 yes, other people enjoy it, that's fine. It's
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 just not for me. But, yeah,
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 now we've got a fair bit.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:12 Oh, by the way, was great to see you and
00:03:12 --> 00:03:14 Huw and Marnie the other day, um, while we
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 were down in Sydney with, um, my wife's
00:03:17 --> 00:03:19 sister in hospital. So we spent a few days
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 down there, uh, but it was good to be able to
00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 catch up and see you for the first time in, I
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 reckon, nearly a decade. It probably is,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see you once a week,
00:03:28 --> 00:03:30 but, yeah, face to face, uh, in your
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 lovely home, uh, which has that horrible
00:03:33 --> 00:03:33 view.
00:03:37 --> 00:03:38 Professor Fred Watson: We think it's all right.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 Andrew Dunkley: And, and um, managing to drag Huw in
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 the. Out of the studio for, um. Yeah, for
00:03:44 --> 00:03:45 lunch.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:46 Professor Fred Watson: That was terrific.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 Andrew Dunkley: So thank you to you and Marnie for putting on
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 a lovely spread. We had a great time. Pity we
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 couldn't stay much longer, uh, than a couple
00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 of hours. But duty, uh, called.
00:03:56 --> 00:03:56 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 Andrew Dunkley: Of the hospital. So. Yeah, no, terrific,
00:03:59 --> 00:03:59 thank you.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:03 Uh, now, uh, question one. Well, not question
00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 one. Um, topic one. Have
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 we found evidence that life once existed
00:04:08 --> 00:04:10 on Mars? Now, this story's got a lot of
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 traction. It's popping up everywhere. It's
00:04:13 --> 00:04:15 sort of been in the news for a week or two
00:04:15 --> 00:04:18 now, but it's
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 obviously, uh, one of those science
00:04:21 --> 00:04:23 stories that grabs the imagination.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 Have we found evidence of life on Mars? Now,
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 the popular press is saying now that we have
00:04:29 --> 00:04:31 found evidence of life on Mars,
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Well, hang
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 on a minute. They're jumping the gun. But
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 it's called clickbait, I think. What, uh,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:41 is the story?
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 Professor Fred Watson: Life, Jim, but not as we know it. I think,
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 um, it's actually, uh, a
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 geological formation, Andrew. It's
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 uh, basically a rock which
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 has been analysed by the Perseverance
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 Rover. Uh, uh, like all rocks
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 that are analysed by, um, not
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 just Perseverance, but other rovers on Mars.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:07 It's got a name. It's called Chavaja Falls.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:10 I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um,
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 it's, um, a rock that has
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 a few, uh, characteristics. Uh, and
00:05:19 --> 00:05:21 the particular one that's got people excited
00:05:21 --> 00:05:23 is what they're calling leopard spots, um,
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 which, uh, they, uh, say
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 the best explanation for these leopard
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 spots is biological processes.
00:05:33 --> 00:05:34 And this comes from
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 actually a geoscientist and planetary
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 scientist at, uh, Stony Brook university
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 in the U.S. now, the
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 critical thing here, uh, is
00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 that, uh, this is still on Mars.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:50 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 Professor Fred Watson: And the Perseverance has
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 collected a sample of that rock. Uh,
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 and you and I have spoken before about the
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 way these samples are collected and put in
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 little cylinders, uh, uh, metal cylinders
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 for later retrieval. The date for
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 retrieval basically goes
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 backwards at I think, one year per year. Uh,
00:06:13 --> 00:06:14 we don't know when that's going to happen
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 because the retrieval mission
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 is, uh, not in good shape at the moment. I
00:06:21 --> 00:06:22 think that's probably still a fair comment.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 Uh, we might hear more soon. Anyway,
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 the best analysis that you can do now is with
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 perseverance itself. Now, Perseverance is
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 not, um, uh, uh,
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 devoid of lots of instrumentation, uh,
00:06:37 --> 00:06:39 that are designed to look for exactly this
00:06:39 --> 00:06:42 kind of thing. Um, and so
00:06:42 --> 00:06:44 that's why the excitement has come about
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 because, uh, there are a number of features
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 about this rock that, uh, tell
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 you that just maybe, just maybe,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 uh, these leopard spots came from
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 biological processes. So,
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 um, let me see if I can get the story right.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 Uh, it's, uh, basically,
00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 uh, a rock that is.
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 Has what you might call veins in it. It's got
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 other material in it. And the other material
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 is what suggests that this rock was
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 formed in running water. Can't remember what
00:07:20 --> 00:07:23 it is, actually. Um, it's, uh. It's, you
00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 know, basically a mineral formation.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:28 Um, but, uh, so that tells you
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 that there was. There was water present. We,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 we know that because that's why
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 Perseverance went to Jezero Crater, because
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 that was once a lake and it had a, a river
00:07:37 --> 00:07:40 delta flowing into it or a river flowing into
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 it that made a river delta. And that's the
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 area in which this rock was collected. But,
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 um, the, the.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 The bottom line is that these, these leopard
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 spots. And I'm sorry, I'm groping a little
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 bit here because I'm not a mineralogist and
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 I'm not actually a chemist. Uh, they are rich
00:07:59 --> 00:08:02 in iron phosphate and iron
00:08:02 --> 00:08:04 sulphide, uh, probably
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 in minerals which I hadn't actually heard of.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 Vivianite and grigite.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 Uh, but these phosphates
00:08:13 --> 00:08:16 have great significance, uh,
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 in terms of their, you know, the biological
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 importance. And so what
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 is being suggested is that
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 there could be the product.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 And I'm actually quoting here from,
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 uh, the Science Alert piece written by
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 Michelle Starr, a great name for somebody who
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 writes about this kind of thing. Um,
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40 it's, uh, Essentially
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 they're thought to be the product of what
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 are called electrochemical reduction and
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 oxidation. And they're usually known as
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 redox reactions involving organic carbon,
00:08:53 --> 00:08:55 either biological or non
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 biological. But then there's a quote from
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 uh, an astrobiologist at Texas A and M
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 University which is it's not just
00:09:04 --> 00:09:07 the minerals, it's how they are, uh,
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 arranged in these structures that suggests
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 that they formed through the redox cycling of
00:09:12 --> 00:09:14 iron and sulphur. On Earth, things like this
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 sometimes form in sediments where microbes
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 are eating organic matter and breathing rust
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 and sulphate. Their presence on Mars raises
00:09:23 --> 00:09:24 the question, could similar
00:09:25 --> 00:09:27 processes have occurred there? That's from
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 Michael Tice of Texas A and M University.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 Uh, but then I think this is the
00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 critical part and um, I'm once again quoting
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 Michelle Starr here from our article. This is
00:09:38 --> 00:09:40 where it gets really interesting. The team
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 modelled different processes that can produce
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 the observed mineral composition of the
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 samples. While they were able to identify
00:09:48 --> 00:09:51 an abiotic process that reduces sulphate to
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 sulphide to produce a result similar to what
00:09:53 --> 00:09:56 is observed in the rocks, that process is
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 extremely slow and requires a either
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 high acidity or temperatures in
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 excess of 150 to 200 degrees
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 Celsius. Mars is certainly capable of
00:10:08 --> 00:10:10 producing acidic conditions and high
00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 temperature through volcanism. However, the
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 rocks show no other signs of being subjected
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 to that level of heat nor ever being
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 exposed to a low ph, in other words acidity.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 And so what they're saying is
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 that because um, of the
00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 absence of uh, other indicators,
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 what you're left with is not the possibility
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34 of acidity or volcanism. You're left with
00:10:34 --> 00:10:37 biological processes. So it's a
00:10:37 --> 00:10:39 long deductive process. Uh,
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 and uh, it's a paper that's appeared
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 in Nature, that's the leading journal
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 for this kind of thing. So uh, I think it
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 might be something we take seriously. Um, but
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 the problem is, um, you know, as uh,
00:10:54 --> 00:10:55 Michelle Starr goes on to say, it's going to
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 be difficult to learn more without studying
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 the rocks themselves. Perseverance's suite of
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 instruments is extremely limited compared to
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 what geologists can accomplish here on Earth.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:06 And the researchers are itching to get their
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 hands on the collected samples. I bet they
00:11:08 --> 00:11:08 are too.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:11 Andrew Dunkley: And that could be a long, long, long
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 way off. So we're sitting in here on
00:11:14 --> 00:11:17 potential evidence of past life on Mars
00:11:17 --> 00:11:20 or not, and we can't look at it
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 except for the photos that come from.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 Professor Fred Watson: The analysis by Perseverance is,
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 uh, instruments. I mean in some ways um,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 a discovery like this might spur the
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 um, And I'm sure they don't need it because
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 there's lots going on behind the scenes. But
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41 it might spur NASA and perhaps ESA
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 to um, get their act together in terms of
00:11:44 --> 00:11:45 this sample return mission. You probably
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 remember it was all planned and it was all
00:11:47 --> 00:11:49 going through the processes, but was going to
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 cost $11 billion.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:51 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and that this is in the previous
00:11:54 --> 00:11:55 administration, it's not the Trump
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 administration. The previous one that was
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 felt to be, you know, one step too far.
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 Um, and um, it needed to be made cheaper
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 and that's I think still where the um, where
00:12:07 --> 00:12:08 the situation lies.
00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 Andrew Dunkley: There is talk that Elon will do it.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:14 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Elon I think offered to do
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 it for um, $3.50 or something like
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 that. Um, uh,
00:12:20 --> 00:12:22 it is possible that Elon could mount a
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 mission to do that. Uh, and I'm sure
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 SpaceX is scratching their head and planning
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 away for exactly that.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I hope he does.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 Yes, um, watch this
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 space. But it's potential excitement
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 in terms of finding another world that
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 had life on it. We often speculate
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 about these things. Uh, and
00:12:45 --> 00:12:47 it's as you and I have said, it's only a
00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 matter of time before we find some form
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 of microbial life,
00:12:53 --> 00:12:56 either current or historic, in the solar
00:12:56 --> 00:12:59 system. Um, this might be it, it might
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 not. Um, but we can't do
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 anything until we get the samples. And that's
00:13:04 --> 00:13:05 the frustrating part.
00:13:06 --> 00:13:07 Professor Fred Watson: It is interesting. One of the things we
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 talked about, um.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:13 Yeah, when, when, when you were um, on uh,
00:13:13 --> 00:13:16 you know, touring the world with Heidi was
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 um, some work that was done.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 Andrew Dunkley: It was actually with, with Judy but. Yeah,
00:13:20 --> 00:13:21 that I understand.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:24 Professor Fred Watson: I talked with Heidi. You went with Judy.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 I wasn't suggesting that Judy was here and
00:13:28 --> 00:13:29 Heidi was there.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:31 Andrew Dunkley: I know.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:35 Professor Fred Watson: When you were touring the world, uh, I spoke
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 with Heidi about um,
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 uh, something that was recog recognised in
00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 the UK that um, there is a,
00:13:44 --> 00:13:47 I can't remember the exact details but it was
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 a combination of mass spectrometers and some
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52 sort of spec, some other sort of spectrometer
00:13:52 --> 00:13:54 that you can bring to bear on
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 uh, samples to detect whether
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 there are living uh, organisms
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 there. Um, it detects uh, the
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 um, nuclear, sorry, molecular bonds
00:14:07 --> 00:14:10 within lipids, uh, which are, you know, the
00:14:10 --> 00:14:12 things that make cell walls and things of
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 that sort. Um, and that's already on Mars.
00:14:14 --> 00:14:17 Uh, in fact pretty well all the
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 landers that have ever gone to Mars have
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 carried this, this kind of equipment. Um,
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 but there you're looking for living
00:14:24 --> 00:14:26 organisms and here we're talking about
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 something that's probably very Long dead,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 perhaps long dead for 3 billion years or
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 something like that. So it's not as easy as
00:14:32 --> 00:14:32 that.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:36 Andrew Dunkley: No, indeed. But um,
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38 we'll just keep our fingers crossed and hope
00:14:38 --> 00:14:41 that sometime in the not too distant future
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43 they'll get these samples back and we'll be
00:14:43 --> 00:14:46 able to find out. Absolutely. Uh,
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 and if you'd like to chase up that story,
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 it's on the Science Alert website or you can
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 read the paper that has been published in
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 Nature and Jordy wants to read it
00:14:56 --> 00:14:57 right now. But he's going to have to be
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 patient. He was the first person that greeted
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 us at your place the other day.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:03 Professor Fred Watson: As he always does.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 Andrew Dunkley: And I say person because a lot of people
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 consider their dogs to be people and that's
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 fine. This is Space Nuts Andrew Dunkley here
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 with Professor Fred Watson Watson. Um.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17 Professor Fred Watson: Okay, we checked all four systems and being
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 with a girl, Space Nuts.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 Andrew Dunkley: Now to another discovery. Uh, or
00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 maybe it's a discovery, uh, and it sort of
00:15:25 --> 00:15:27 carries on from something we spoke about last
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 week when we asked the question,
00:15:30 --> 00:15:33 have we, hey Jordy, have
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 we discovered a primordial black
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 hole? Um, now they're saying no
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 because we may have discovered a new class of
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 black hole stars. They're ah, the
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 same stories one end or the other or they're
00:15:46 --> 00:15:47 different completely.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's really interesting because
00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 it's the evidence that's the same story.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:55 Andrew Dunkley: Yes.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 Professor Fred Watson: And I think on Space Nuts we've now covered
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 this three times and it's changing.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 Yeah, and it keeps changing. The little red
00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 dots that um, are being detected
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 by uh, the James Webb telescope
00:16:09 --> 00:16:11 at very, very great distances, very high
00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 redshifts as we put it. Uh, in other words,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 these are things that we see when the
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 universe was in its infancy. And
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 so um, the little red dots,
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 uh, have been thought to be galaxies and have
00:16:25 --> 00:16:27 been thought to be um, evidence of
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 primordial black holes. But um,
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 some recent work has uh, once again
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 looked at the little red dots. Uh,
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 this is um,
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41 basically a group, um, headed by
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 uh, scientists at Pennsylvania State
00:16:44 --> 00:16:47 University in the us. Um,
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51 we thought there were galaxies, um, and
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 they're red partly because they're highly
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 redshifted. That's to say the light
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 from them has been stretched by the expansion
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 of the universe because it's been travelling
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 for 13.5 years or something of
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 that sort. Um, but um,
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 the latest is in,
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 in some ways even more intriguing
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 and it's because uh,
00:17:15 --> 00:17:18 they actually uh, the, the, the,
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21 the new research uh, suggests
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 that you are looking
00:17:24 --> 00:17:27 not at galaxies but basically
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 at uh, gigantic stars.
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 Um, so Single stars, which
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 are huge, uh, and
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 possibly at their centre, have a
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 black hole. So what you've got here is a
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 process that, you know, it's, it's
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 independent of galaxy formation. We, we now
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 think that the black holes build up their
00:17:50 --> 00:17:53 mass, uh, very early in the, in the universe
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 and that acts as a mass concentrator and gas
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58 falls into it. The gas form stars and you get
00:17:58 --> 00:18:00 galaxies around the, around the black holes,
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 which very quickly become super massive.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 Yeah, but, um, the idea
00:18:05 --> 00:18:08 here is that the gas has simply
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 concentrated around the black hole and
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 got hot. Um, uh, so it's not
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 basically nuclear
00:18:17 --> 00:18:20 fusion that's making them shine,
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 which is what happens in stars, but
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 the black hole in the centre,
00:18:26 --> 00:18:28 that's essentially, uh,
00:18:29 --> 00:18:31 accreting the matter, it's pulling in the
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 matter. Uh, and the energy
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 from that process is what makes them
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 luminous. It's a bit like, you know, we know
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 that accretion discs around a black hole, for
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 example, in the centre of our own galaxy,
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 that disc of material swirling around the
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 black hole gets very hot
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 and it releases both X rays and
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 radio waves, which we see
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 as the object Sagittarius, a star in the
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 radio spectrum. So it's that kind of process.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 It's the process of black, uh, holes,
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 uh, pulling things in, making them compress
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 very high and getting very excited.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 Uh, that. That actually gives the
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 energy of the star itself.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 And by star I'm putting in inverted commas
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 because it's so, so big, um,
00:19:19 --> 00:19:22 and it's cold. It's not, um, heated by
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 nuclear fusion. Uh, uh, there's a comment
00:19:25 --> 00:19:28 here from, uh, one of the researchers at
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 Penn State saying, uh.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:33 Let me, let me read the quote. It's actually,
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 uh, quite nice. We looked at enough red dots
00:19:36 --> 00:19:39 until we saw one that had so much atmosphere
00:19:39 --> 00:19:40 that it couldn't be explained as typical
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 stars as we'd expect from a galaxy.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 Um, uh, and so, uh, the
00:19:46 --> 00:19:49 researchers believe that these objects are
00:19:49 --> 00:19:51 driven, as I said, by supermassive black
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53 holes in their centres. Um, and going on to
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 quote again, it's Joel, uh, Leha, I think is
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 the name of this person. It's an elegant
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 answer, really. Uh, we thought it was a
00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 tiny galaxy full of many separate cold stars,
00:20:04 --> 00:20:06 but it's actually effectively one gigantic,
00:20:06 --> 00:20:09 very cold star. Um, and that is
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 so new, it's mind blowing.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 Um, and of course what you need is many more
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 observations, lots more spectroscopy,
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 uh, and, um, basically, uh, uh,
00:20:22 --> 00:20:24 a lot, a lot, you know, a lot of perhaps more
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 theoretical work. Another quote from that
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 same scientist. These black hole stars might
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 be the first phase of formation for the black
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 holes that we see in galaxies today.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 Supermassive black holes in their little
00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 infancy stage. So wow, that
00:20:40 --> 00:20:41 one out. Yeah.
00:20:41 --> 00:20:43 Andrew Dunkley: Because the biggest question, Fred Watson, is
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 what's this going to be next week?
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 Professor Fred Watson: What is a little red dot going to be next
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 week? I've got a little black dog here.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:53 Andrew Dunkley: Could be a little black dog.
00:20:54 --> 00:20:54 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's a, It's a fascinating story and it
00:20:59 --> 00:21:01 just sort of keeps evolving. Uh, I suppose
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03 the more they look at it, the more we might
00:21:03 --> 00:21:06 understand. I always use the word male might
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 or the words male might when it comes to this
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 kind of thing, because you can never be
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 absolutely in 100 certain in
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 many facets of astronomy and space science,
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 because sometimes we just aren't sure.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 Uh, although they're starting to, starting to
00:21:22 --> 00:21:23 really hone in on this one, by the sound of
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 it. So that's.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yeah. Um, I, uh.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:29 And you know, that's the thing about science.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 So covering three different stories about
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 little red dots in the last two months or so.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:38 Yeah. Uh, tells you how science works. And at
00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 the moment, science is powering ahead. It's
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 going so quickly. The discoveries that are
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 being made. Part of that is the tools we've
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 got now. And the James Webb Telescope has
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 definitely been, uh, a game changer in that.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:49 Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:49 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it just keeps, um, bringing up
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 all sorts of new things. It's fascinating.
00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 Uh, and yeah, there seems to be a story every
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00 other day from the James Webb Space
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03 Telescope. Uh, just terrific. If you
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 would like to read up on these, um,
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08 potential black hole stars, you can do
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 that@cosmos magazine.com or you can read the
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 paper at Astronomy and
00:22:13 --> 00:22:14 Astrophysics.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:21 Righto, Fred Watson.
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23 Uh, let's, uh, nail down our last
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 story. And this is, uh, something that
00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 seems to be happening semi regularly
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 now. Another quasi moon is attaching
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 itself to Earth. Um, in some
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 places we call these leeches. In other places
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 we call them black flies or house flies
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 because they just annoy the bajeebis out of
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 people. Um, but, uh, yes, another
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 one. I think this is about the third one
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 we've talked about since we started doing the
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 podcast that I'm aware of.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's probably right. Um, so it's
00:22:55 --> 00:22:57 a. Yes, a quasi moon. Um,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 it's something like,
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 ah, 20 metres or so
00:23:04 --> 00:23:07 across. So a tiny
00:23:07 --> 00:23:09 object. Um, it's
00:23:10 --> 00:23:11 comparable, actually, as one of the
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 commentators has said, comparable, uh, with
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 the object that exploded over
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17 Chelyabinsk in 2013.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 And that is small enough
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 that it kind of eludes the gaze of
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 telescopes. Unless you're fortunate. This one
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 didn't. It was found uh not very long
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 ago on 2 August 2025
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 uh by astronomers uh with the
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 Pan Starrs 1 telescope at Haleakala
00:23:38 --> 00:23:40 Observatory which is on um, the island of
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 Maui in Hawaii. That telescope
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 is close to my heart because Marnie and I got
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 married in front of it. That's right on top
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 of the mountain, uh, just actually over the
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 top of the hill. Uh so of course Pan
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 Starrs is doing a fabulous job in detecting
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 these near earth objects, uh the small
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 objects which NASA was mandated by
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 Congress to find. Everything down to a
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 size of one ah, hundred forty metres I think
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08 is the limit. This is much smaller than that.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 Um, so it was thought to be um, sort
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 of bog standard near Earth asteroid. Uh it
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17 was given such a designation
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 2025 PN7. That's typical of
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 the asteroidal um naming until
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 an asteroid is given a you know a more
00:24:25 --> 00:24:28 elegant name. But what's now happened
00:24:28 --> 00:24:31 is um, actually an astronomer who
00:24:31 --> 00:24:33 is a French astronomer who, who looked at the
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 uh, uh the details uh,
00:24:36 --> 00:24:38 and basically um,
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41 came to the conclusion that this is actually
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 a quasi moon.
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 What does that mean? Uh, it means it's in an
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 orbit actually around the sun.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 But uh, that orbit is very
00:24:54 --> 00:24:57 much controlled by the Earth. So it's
00:24:57 --> 00:25:00 almost like this thing's following the Earth
00:25:00 --> 00:25:01 around in its orbit. There are a number of
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 objects that do this,
00:25:04 --> 00:25:06 um, perhaps the
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 best known one and I'm struggling to remember
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11 its name, uh
00:25:12 --> 00:25:15 Krusna, named by a colleague of mine who
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 found it uh, uh when he worked
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 at the Ukeshmite Telescope. Dunkley Waldron,
00:25:20 --> 00:25:23 still very active in the astronomy world up
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 there in Brisbane. Uh so Krishna uh
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 is in a sort of what you might
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 call a kidney shaped orbit if you look just
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33 at the Earth. Uh so it sort of looks as
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 though it's in orbit around the Earth but
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37 it's not, it's in orbit around the sun. And
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40 2025 PN7 is, is
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 in a similar situation. However uh,
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 scientists at a number of uh, uh
00:25:45 --> 00:25:47 institutions, um some of them I think are in
00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 Spain actually have analysed its
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 orbit and reckon that
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 it's only been there for about 60 years
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 uh and that it will probably only be
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 there for about another 60 years because its
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 orbit is not stable. It's not stable over
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 long periods. So uh, they reckon for
00:26:08 --> 00:26:11 about 128 years it will be a quasi
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 satellite of the Earth, uh but
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 uh, we will eventually lose it.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 Uh, but it's uh, you know whilst it's here.
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 It's one that deserves further study and that
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 is exactly what's happening.
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 Andrew Dunkley: I think they're saying that at the moment
00:26:27 --> 00:26:30 there are six other quasi moons. So
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 this makes seven, um, currently
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 doing, you know, their dance.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 Um, these things must come and go fairly
00:26:39 --> 00:26:41 regularly over time, I would imagine. And,
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 and the good news is they don't think this
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 one's going to pose any form of threat
00:26:46 --> 00:26:49 to Earth, uh, at all. Unless you live in
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 Chelyabinsk, uh, or um, any
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 other similar sized city. But stay away
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 from the windows is basically the best
00:26:57 --> 00:26:57 advice.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:01 Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes. Um, I think,
00:27:01 --> 00:27:04 um, there's another one which
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 is of interest. Another of those seven that
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 you mentioned, Kamaoalewa, uh,
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 uh, discovered again I think by Pan Starrs,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 hence the Hawaiian name that
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 lasts for 381 years.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 Apparently, uh, it'll be a quasi moon. But
00:27:21 --> 00:27:23 what's of interest is that if I remember,
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 it's called Tianwen 2A, ah, Chinese
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 spacecraft which is going to
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 rendezvous with it, uh, sometime within the
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34 next year or so. I think I remember.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:36 Andrew Dunkley: Interesting all. Uh-huh.
00:27:36 --> 00:27:36 Professor Fred Watson: Right.
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 Andrew Dunkley: We might learn something from that. Yeah, if
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 they tell us. Yeah. Um, but uh, yes,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 these quasi moons are interesting and it's
00:27:44 --> 00:27:45 the instability of their um,
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 orbits that makes them sort of fly off
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 and disappear into the ether.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:54 Andrew Dunkley: So where do they go?
00:27:55 --> 00:27:55 Professor Fred Watson: Somewhere else.
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 Andrew Dunkley: Somewhere else. It's a good answer.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 Very good answer. All right. Uh, if
00:28:03 --> 00:28:03 you'd like.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 Professor Fred Watson: Well, they're in orbit around the sun, so
00:28:05 --> 00:28:06 they basically just continue with that.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and until they get captured by something
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 else, I suppose. But, um, yes, all right, uh,
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 you can read up on that story on this rather
00:28:13 --> 00:28:15 interesting website called the Brighter side.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 Um, Brighter side News, in fact.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 Uh, and that brings us to the, uh, end of
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 this particular episode. Fred Watson, thank
00:28:25 --> 00:28:25 you very much.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, you're welcome, Andrew. It's uh, great to
00:28:28 --> 00:28:29 catch up again.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it is. It was nice to see you and
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 Marnie and uh, Huw in the studio the other
00:28:34 --> 00:28:36 day who wasn't in the studio strangely, and
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38 he's not in the studio today. I don't know
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40 what he's doing. He's probably, um, playing
00:28:40 --> 00:28:42 with Jordy or something, you know,
00:28:43 --> 00:28:44 kidnapping feral cats.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:47 Professor Fred Watson: That'S.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 Andrew Dunkley: One of his hobbies. Yeah. Uh, thanks
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 Fred Watson. We'll catch you real soon.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:52 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. See you later.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 Andrew Dunkley: And thanks, uh, for uh, watching and, or
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 listening to Space Nuts. Don't forget to
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 check out our Show Nuts, uh, Show Notes.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 Show Nuts. I suppose we could call them that,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:05 Show Notes, uh, at the bottom of the page on
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00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 newsletter of, uh, current events in
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 astronomy and space science. Uh,
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29 but that's it. We'll catch you on the next
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 episode, a Q and A episode coming up next
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 week. Uh, we'll see you then from me, Andrew
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35 Dunkley. Bye.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:35 Professor Fred Watson: Bye.
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