This week’s guests includes: Dr Ben Montet from the University of New South Wales Andreas Rudolph ESA’s flight operations director for Euclid Satoshi Miyazaki the director of Japan’s Superu telescope Parker Solar Probe lead Engineer Betsy Congdon…. And our regular guests: Tim Mendham from Australian Skeptics Alex Zaharov-Reutt from www.techadvice.life Listen to SpaceTime on your favorite podcast app with our universal listen link: https://spacetimewithstuartgary.com/listen and access show links via https://linktr.ee/biteszHQ Additionally, listeners can support the podcast and gain access to bonus content by becoming a SpaceTime crew member through www.bitesz.supercast.com or through premium versions on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Details on our website at https://spacetimewithstuartgary.com For more SpaceTime and show links: https://linktr.ee/biteszHQ For more podcasts visit our HQ at https://bitesz.com
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Stuart Gary: This is Space Time series 26 episode 82 for
00:00:04
broadcast on the 10th of July 2023. Coming up on Space Time,
00:00:10
the planet that shouldn't exist, the Sun blasts out another
00:00:14
strong X class solar flare and the Australian government scraps
00:00:19
a billion dollar satellite program. All that and more
00:00:23
coming up on Space Time.
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Generic: Welcome to Space Time with Stuart Garry.
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Stuart Gary: Astronomers have discovered a planet that by all
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accounts shouldn't exist located some 520 light years away. The
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planet eight Ursa Manaus B is orbiting a red giant in the
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constellation Ursa minor, the little bear.
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But the thing is this planet should have been destroyed when
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it was engulfed during the star's expansion phase into a
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red giant part of an evolution that will ultimately see this
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star become a white dwarf. White dwarves are stars like our Sun
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that have used up all their core hydrogen fuel, fusing it into
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helium.
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This causes the stellar core to cool and contract and this
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contraction increases pressure and temperature in the core
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eventually getting high enough to fuse the core helium into
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carbon and oxygen. At the same time, all this extra heat is
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causing the star's arctic gaseous envelope to expand. And
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now being further away from the stellar core, the surface of the
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stellar envelope cools down, turning the star into a red
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giant.
00:01:50
This process happens over and over again in a series of pulses
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and during these pulses, the outer envelope engulfs and
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destroys any nearby planets.
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In fact, this is the very fact, our own dying Sun will inflict
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on the inner planets of our solar system in between five and
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7 billion years from now, our Sun too will expand into a red
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giant engulfing and destroying the planet's mercury Venus and
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most likely also the Earth eventually be it eight Ursa
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minor or our Sun.
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The star's outer envelope will simply pass off floating away as
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a planetary nebula, leaving behind the star's exposed white
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hot stellar core. A white dwarf which will then be left to
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slowly cool over the eons until now, scientists have thought
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that no nearby planet can survive this process.
00:02:43
However, a new study reported in the journal nature has confirmed
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the existence of the planet eight Cimino B, which seems to
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have survived the deadly expansion against all odds. The
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planet which is also known as Hala is orbiting close to the
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dying red giant star and well within the zone that would have
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been wiped clean during the star's expansion phase.
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Halla is a hot jupiter like gas giant. The planet is composed of
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swirling gas with a surface temperature of around 1000
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Kelvin at 730 degrees Celsius making it hotter than any planet
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in our solar system. One of the reasons behind this heat is the
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planet's closeness to its host star, which at 75 million
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kilometers is about half the distance between the Earth and
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the Sun.
00:03:29
And as for the star itself, well, it's expanded out to
00:03:32
around 20 times the diameter of our Sun. One of the study's
00:03:36
authors, Dr Ben Mona from the University Of New South Wales
00:03:40
says this is a planet that simply shouldn't exist.
00:03:43
It should have been ingested by the star. Astronomers have known
00:03:46
about how since 2015, when a study using the radial velocity
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method, a technique which analyzes the slight
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gravitational tug an orbiting planet can have on its host star
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suggested that a planet must be orbiting the star ate Ursa and
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Noris, which is also known as Bae.
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Do. The new observations confirm this discovery showing that
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Halo's nearly circular 93 Earth day orbit around the star has
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remained stable for well over a decade. The findings are based
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on observations from the Canada France, Hawaii observatory and
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the twin Keck telescopes upon monarchy in Hawaii.
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The authors also use NASA's test transiting exoplanets survey
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satellite in order to undertake astro seismology observations of
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the star studying its oscillations to help uncover its
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internal properties.
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Astro seismology measures pressure waves or star quakes
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inside the star in the same way that geoscientists learn about
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the Earth's interior by studying earthquakes through seismology.
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This confirmed that bag do was in fact burning helium at its
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core. A face that red giants only reach after they've already
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swirled up and consume nearby planets.
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And this makes Hula the only planet we know closely orbiting
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a star in this late stage of life. The discovery raises some
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interesting questions is the planet breaking everything
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science knows about stellar planetary evolution or could
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there be another equally bizarre reason behind its survival?
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Monte and colleagues didn't take long to spot something strange.
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They detected a lot of lithium in the star's atmosphere. And
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this is unusual because most stars don't have lithium, it
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burns too easily in stellar atmospheres. While lithium is
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often seen in young stars, only about 1% of older red giants
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possess it.
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One of the leading theories to explain why some older stars are
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mysteriously lithium rich is that they've gained their
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lithium later in life most likely by way of interaction
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with another star. Now, if that's the case, our authors
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have come up with three possible scenarios.
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One involves Bae do itself being the result of a merger of two
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stars in a binary system millions of years ago. And this
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merger could have restricted one of the stars in the binary
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system from expanding wide enough to engulf Hala thereby
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allowing the planet to escape.
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Or it's possible that Hula itself wasn't in danger in the
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first place simply because it didn't exist before the star's
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expansion phase. Instead, it might very well be a second
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generation planet born from the ingredient rich gas cloud
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created from the merger of the two stars.
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A third option involves a long term trend in the star's radial
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velocity signal, suggesting there's something else there,
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another nearby object and that's having a slight gravitational
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pull on Baek do. But whether it's a star or a planet or
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whether it's even played a role in somehow influencing Hula's
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current orbit is still a mystery.
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This discovery is important because it shows that not all
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close in planets are doomed at the hands of their host stars
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when the star begins to grow old and become bloated. Monte says
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there are about 1000 other lithium rich giant stars out
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there that we already know of.
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And this could be an exciting opportunity to search them out
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in hope of finding more nearby planets. He points out that
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there aren't many of these stars that have been studied in detail
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simply because they shouldn't have planets around them. But
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we've been surprised once now and we'll probably be surprised
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to gain.
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Dr Ben Montet : Yeah, this is a planet that's in a really
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surprising place. We know when a star is at the end of its life,
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it will expand, become a red giant, but that's a fairly short
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lived phase. It becomes a red giant very briefly and then it
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tracks back down and goes through a long, you know,
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hundreds of millions of years phase called the red clump where
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much like our Sun, it will be burning things in its core.
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But unlike our Sun, which is turning hydrogen into helium,
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the star has used up all its hydrogen, it's converting helium
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into carbon, but it's already been through this expansion and
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contraction phase. And so, in this case, we see a planet that
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is in a fairly close orbit to a star. That's weird.
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We know when the Sun goes through the phase, we expect it
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to swallow up mercury and Venus and possibly even Earth, it's
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going to grow at large about what we call one A U decided
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that the Sun, this star went through that phase too. So we
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would expect it to swallow up anything in the short period.
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But this planet seems to have avoided that fate.
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Stuart Gary: You can see the planet directly. I take it or
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how do you know it's there? Yeah, that's exactly right.
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Dr Ben Montet : So we don't see the planet specifically. We see
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its effects on its host star. So in this case, we see it through
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a method called spectroscopy, we measure the velocity of the star
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looking at how quickly it's moving towards or away from us.
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And we see that change it. And that's because it is being
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orbited by this planet.
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And so really these two objects are both gravitationally tugging
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on each other. The planet goes around the star, the star goes
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around the planet a little bit as well. And so we see that
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reflex motion through the wobble method exactly in the same way
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that we see or we hear police siren or a train or a race car
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change pitch as it moves, we see the same thing in light from
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stars.
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The star becomes slightly bluer or redder over time. And we use
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that to infer the presence of the planet, we can work out the
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period and how big the planet is based off of how long the signal
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takes and how big it is.
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Stuart Gary: And you also used Astros seismology in this study
00:09:06
as well.
00:09:06
Dr Ben Montet : Absolutely. Yes. So astro seismology is a study
00:09:09
of pals in a star, stars are big balls of gas, they behave like
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fluids. And so in the same way as you skip a rock on a pond,
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and you see the ripple stars have side of our interior as
00:09:20
well. And the speed that these ripples go through the star, the
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where they go through tells us what the interior of the star
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looks like. How dense is it? What is it about magnetic field?
00:09:29
We can really learn a lot about stars through these ripples. And
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so in this case, that's what enabled us to understand that
00:09:33
the star is this evolve through the red giant phase for the
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first time. So the star will go through several phases of
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expansion. And contraction. It loses a little bit of mass each
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time. But the main loss of the outer layers, the main planetary
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nebula contraction is in the future.
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So it's been through this first step. This red giant branch will
00:09:53
become, you know, something like 100 times the radius of the Sun.
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It's contracted back down to about 10 times the radius of the
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Sun. But it will, as it runs out of helium in its core, it will
00:10:03
go through this process again and it will go through a couple
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of times on its way to eventually becoming a white core
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for the planetary nebula around it.
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Stuart Gary: What makes this special? Just just the fact that
00:10:11
the planet survive. I'm assuming that's what we're talking about
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here.
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Dr Ben Montet : Yes, it's special in that we don't really
00:10:17
understand why this planet is there. That the theory would
00:10:20
predict the planet doesn't exist. It should have been
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swallowed up.
00:10:23
And so either it survived or it wasn't there in the first place
00:10:27
that perhaps there was interaction with another star
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that puts the material in orbit in a disk later on in the star's
00:10:33
life that the planet was able to coalesce from, we call these
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second generation planets. So a planet that arrived later on in
00:10:39
the life of the star. And it's possible that that happened. We
00:10:41
don't really have the data today.
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Stuart Gary: Three theories associated with this aren't
00:10:45
there that could explain what we're seeing. Yes, absolutely.
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Dr Ben Montet : So one of the things that's weird about this
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star beyond that, it has a planet is that it has a lot of
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lithium in its atmosphere. Now, lithium is an element that
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doesn't stick around long inside a star. It's very easy to burn
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to separate out two other elements. Even brown brown works
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have them. Yes and very young stars have them.
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And so we use it to measure the ages of stars of young stars
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based on how much lithium is left characteristic. We call it
00:11:12
depletion timescale, the how your lithium. And so this star's
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timescale should have been 10, 20 million years, you know, it
00:11:18
wouldn't have had lithium for very long and yet it's billions
00:11:21
of years old and there's a lot of lithium in there.
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We see this about 1% of the time in these red giants. We've seen
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them for about 50 years. A long standing mystery why these stars
00:11:29
have lithium. But one of the main theories is that it's the
00:11:32
result of a merger that this star had a second star in orbit
00:11:35
in a binary system.
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And perhaps that star got swallowed up along the way or in
00:11:39
some way, was able to perhaps get injected it from the system,
00:11:43
but it somehow shielded the planet from being swelled up,
00:11:45
affected the evolution of the star that it didn't quite go
00:11:48
through this red giant phase in the way that stars normally do.
00:11:50
Stuart Gary: Now, this particular system was found
00:11:52
using tests. The, well, I was going to say planet hunting, but
00:11:55
it's really more planet confirming spacecraft of NASA
00:11:58
test.
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Dr Ben Montet : Is a little bit of everything. One of the things
00:12:00
that's really exciting about tests is that it's really useful
00:12:03
as a probe as well. And so test was really useful for the
00:12:08
system. There was another team years ago that, that identified
00:12:11
a can this planet as a candidate using ground based data, but
00:12:14
they didn't understand the star very well.
00:12:16
And so, Tess was critical for understanding this is a star on
00:12:19
the red clump. It through the red giant branch through the
00:12:22
technology that would not have been possible without tests. So
00:12:24
that played a key role.
00:12:25
And the other telescope that was really important was the Keck
00:12:28
telescope in Monia, Hawaii has a spectrograph called high res on
00:12:31
it, which is really one of the world's best telescopes for
00:12:34
doing these Doppler shift measurements, looking for the
00:12:36
wobbles of star because the planet that enabled us to really
00:12:39
precisely characterize the mass of the planet, the size of the
00:12:42
planet, verify that it was there and also identify that there's
00:12:45
some long term extra acceleration from the velocity
00:12:49
of the star.
00:12:50
So something else is pulling on the star, perhaps it's a binary
00:12:52
component in a wider orbit or another planet that we don't
00:12:56
quite have the data to characterize. Yet. There's
00:12:57
exciting times ahead.
00:12:58
Stuart Gary: That's Dr Ben Monte, an astronomer with the
00:13:01
University Of New South Wales and this is Space Time still to
00:13:07
come. The Sun releases a strong X class solar flare and the
00:13:11
Australian government scraps a billion dollar satellite program
00:13:16
all that and more still to come on Space Time.
00:13:35
The Sun has emitted a strong X class solar flare. X class flare
00:13:40
is the most violent and intense type of solar flare. The event
00:13:44
was captured by NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory spacecraft
00:13:48
which constantly monitors the Sun's activity. Solar flares are
00:13:52
powerful bursts of energy exploding out from the Sun's
00:13:55
surface due to Sun spot action.
00:13:57
If pointed at the Earth flares and coronal mass ejections,
00:14:01
powerful explosions sending the Sun's matter into space can
00:14:05
impact radio communications, satellite navigation systems,
00:14:09
electric power grids, damaged spacecraft and be a threat to
00:14:13
astronauts by increasing radiation levels.
00:14:16
This latest blast came as the sunspot count for the average
00:14:20
number of sunspots in June hit a 21 year high. It means that
00:14:25
solar cycle 25 has shot past its predecessor solar cycle 24 and
00:14:30
may now be on track to rival some of the strongest solar
00:14:34
cycles of the 20th century.
00:14:36
This is Space Time still to come. Australia scraps a billion
00:14:41
dollar satellite program and the United States launches a new top
00:14:46
secret spy satellite on what will be the second last ever
00:14:49
launch of a delta four heavy. All that are more still to come
00:14:54
on Space Time after scrapping millions in funding for rocket
00:15:11
launch facilities in Australia.
00:15:12
Last month, the Albanese government has now axed a $1.2
00:15:17
billion satellite Earth Resources program. The National
00:15:21
Space Mission For Earth Observation Project was designed
00:15:24
to develop a series of satellites that were key to
00:15:27
developing Australia's space industry, providing Australia
00:15:31
with the capabilities to design, build and launch its own
00:15:34
spacecraft.
00:15:35
The global space market has grown to a record $469 billion
00:15:41
in annual global spending in 2021 and up from 280 billion in
00:15:46
2010 and it is expected to pass a trillion dollars by 2030.
00:15:51
The former coalition government wanted Australia to have a
00:15:54
significant slice of that market. The Australian project
00:15:58
was to build and operate an initial four satellites which
00:16:01
would be launched between 2028 and 2033 in order to garner
00:16:05
Earth observation data to help with weather forecasting
00:16:08
farming, environmental management, forestry control,
00:16:12
national disaster assistance and defense security measures.
00:16:16
The Space Industry Association Of Australia says the decision
00:16:19
to cancel the satellite program was short sighted and will
00:16:23
undermine the Albanese government's agenda on climate
00:16:26
defense stem advanced manufacturing and building tech
00:16:30
jobs.
00:16:31
Last week, Federal Treasurer Jim Chalmers boasted about the labor
00:16:35
government achieving a budget surplus for the 12 months to May
00:16:38
of $19 billion. Well above the $4.2 billion flagged in the 2022
00:16:43
2023 financial year in the last federal budget this Space Time.
00:16:50
Still to come. The penultimate delta four heavy rocket blast
00:16:54
off from Cape Canaveral carrying a top secret spy satellite. And
00:16:58
later in the science report, the World Meteorological
00:17:01
Organization formally declares that an El Niño event is now
00:17:05
underway all that and more still to come on Space Time.
00:17:26
The penultimate flight of the massive United Launch Alliance
00:17:29
delta four heavy has taken off from Cape Canaveral in Florida
00:17:33
carrying a top secret spy satellite into orbit.
00:17:37
The NRL 68 mission from space launch complex 37 B had been
00:17:41
delayed by a day following an issue with the ground system,
00:17:45
pneumatic valve, 72 m tall delta four heavy made up of three
00:17:50
delta four core stages mounted side by side forming one of the
00:17:54
most powerful rockets in the world. One capable of lifting
00:17:57
more than 14 tons into geostationary orbit as well as
00:18:02
the three common core boosters.
00:18:03
The launch vehicle configuration also used the cryogenic center
00:18:07
upper stage and a 5 m diameter payload fairing to protect the
00:18:11
classified National Reconnaissance office. A spy
00:18:13
satellite NRL 68 marked the 15th launch of the delta four heavy
00:18:19
first flew in 2004 and it was the 11th delta four heavy
00:18:23
mission for the National Reconnaissance office.
00:18:25
The final delta four heavy is slated to launch next year.
00:18:29
There are now only three missions still planned using
00:18:32
either delta or Atlas rockets, both of which will be replaced
00:18:36
by the United Launch Alliance's new Vulcan scent or rocket
00:18:39
sometime in the next year or so.
00:18:42
We'll keep you informed this Space Time and time now to take
00:19:03
a brief look at some of the other stories making news in
00:19:05
science. This week. With the science report, the World
00:19:09
Meteorological Organization has formally declared that an El
00:19:12
Niño event is now underway. Scientists say warm eastern
00:19:17
tropical Pacific sea surface temperatures have now confirmed
00:19:20
the presence of El Niño with a 90 per cent chance of it.
00:19:23
Continuing into late 2023. The World Meteorological
00:19:27
Organization has combined forecasts and expert opinions
00:19:30
from around the world to declare the onset of the El Niño which
00:19:33
is set to increase the likelihood of record high
00:19:36
temperatures in many parts of the world.
00:19:39
The El Niño and La Nina southern oscillation weather patterns
00:19:42
known as Enzo Act as the primary meteorological driver
00:19:46
influencing Australia's weather and climate on a year to year
00:19:49
basis. It's a naturally occurring shift in tropical
00:19:53
ocean temperatures and weather patterns along the equatorial
00:19:55
Pacific causing a change in atmospheric circulation.
00:19:59
These cycles loosely operate over timescales ranging from 1
00:20:04
to 8 years, El Niño, meaning little Boy or Christ chart in
00:20:08
Spanish causes extended periods of warming sea surface
00:20:12
temperatures in the central and eastern tropical Pacific with
00:20:15
high surface pressures in the tropical Western Pacific.
00:20:18
And that includes Australia. The name comes from Peruvian fishers
00:20:23
who noticed reduced catches of anchovies at Christmas time
00:20:26
during periods of unusually warm water in the Pacific Ocean. Back
00:20:30
in the 16 hundreds, El Ninos tend to cause periods of warmer
00:20:34
temperatures, reduced rainfall, increased drought and high fire
00:20:38
danger across Australia.
00:20:40
While the Americans tend to experience increased rainfall,
00:20:44
flooding and storm activity with the Pacific jet stream moving
00:20:47
south causing drier and warmer conditions in the northern US
00:20:51
and Canada. While the US Gulf Coast and south east become
00:20:54
wetter than usual with increased risk of flooding.
00:20:57
Now, typically the equatorial trade winds blow from east to
00:21:01
west across the Pacific Ocean during El Ninos, El Niño's
00:21:05
counterpart La Nina or little girl. We've just experienced
00:21:08
three of them in a row.
00:21:09
By the way, is associated with lower sea surface pressure and
00:21:13
ended periods of cooling equatorial sea surface
00:21:16
temperatures in the central and eastern tropical Pacific. It
00:21:19
also generates persistent south easterly to north westerly
00:21:22
winds. Strengthening in tropical latitudes with clouds shifting
00:21:26
west across the Pacific closer to Australia.
00:21:29
La Nina results in increased rainfall and flooding across
00:21:32
eastern and central Australia with more storm and tropical
00:21:35
cyclone activity likely and a weakening or even reversal of
00:21:39
the prevailing trade winds. Pushing more warm water towards
00:21:42
Australia. La Nina can also lead to more severe American
00:21:46
hurricane seasons.
00:21:48
Meanwhile the cooler eastern Pacific waters pushed the jet
00:21:51
stream northwards bringing more drought conditions to the
00:21:54
southern US and heavy rains and flooding to the Pacific north
00:21:58
western Canada during a La Nina period. Us winter temperatures
00:22:02
are warmer than normal in the south and cooler than normal in
00:22:05
the north.
00:22:07
Planet Earth's average temperature has set a new record
00:22:10
reaching 17.18 degrees Celsius for several days. And that was
00:22:15
after setting the previous record of 17.01 degrees Celsius
00:22:19
the previous day.
00:22:20
The latest records based on data from the US National Centers For
00:22:24
Environmental prediction beat the old record of 16.92 degrees
00:22:28
Celsius which was set back in August 2016. The new high was
00:22:32
also the warmest since satellite monitoring first began in 1979.
00:22:38
Scientists say the new record is due to a combination of the
00:22:41
latest El Niño weather event and ongoing emissions of carbon
00:22:44
dioxide and other greenhouse gasses.
00:22:47
The record comes as the southern US, China and North Africa all
00:22:51
suffer record heat waves and they warn there'll be more
00:22:54
records in coming months as El Niño strengthens the average
00:22:58
temperature across the planet is now 1.46 degrees Celsius above
00:23:03
the average during the period 18 50 to 1900.
00:23:07
Meteorologists warned that the new El Niño phase means we can
00:23:10
expect a lot more daily monthly and annual record breaking
00:23:14
events over the next 18 months.
00:23:18
The Reuters news agency is reporting that one of the
00:23:20
world's most common artificial sweeteners is set to be declared
00:23:24
a possible carcinogen next month by the World Health
00:23:27
Organization. Dr Ian Musgrave from the University Of Adelaide
00:23:31
says the sweetener.
00:23:32
Asper team will be listed as a class two B carcinogen, meaning
00:23:37
it's possibly carcinogenic to humans. This means there's some
00:23:41
evidence for carcinogenicity, but Musgrave says to put it all
00:23:45
in perspective, hot beverages are listed as a class two, a
00:23:48
probable carcinogen.
00:23:50
So there's less evidence for Asper being a carcinogen than
00:23:53
there is for drinking hot beverages. He says the most
00:23:57
recent systematic review of non sugar sweeteners found no
00:24:00
consistent evidence for carcinogenesis from
00:24:02
epidemiological studies and no evidence relevant to humans of
00:24:06
carcinogenic in trials.
00:24:08
Musgrave says in short, the evidence of any human risk is
00:24:12
very weak and if you're not going to worry about your risk
00:24:15
from a hot copper, then the Asper you put in, it will be
00:24:18
even less of a worry what UFOLOGISTS want more than
00:24:23
anything else in the world beside actual proof of
00:24:26
extraterrestrials is for some serious people to pay serious
00:24:29
attention to them.
00:24:30
The problem of course is that once you get really serious
00:24:33
investigations by real scientists, you tend to get real
00:24:37
results. And as Tim Mendham from Australian Skeptics puts it,
00:24:41
that's never good news for UFOLOGISTS.
00:24:44
Tim Mendham: The great thing about most UFO proponents great
00:24:47
several things probably is that most of them are genuine. There
00:24:50
are hoaxes out there obviously, but most of them are genuine.
00:24:53
They really and they really want evidence and proof of their
00:24:56
beliefs and that's great.
00:24:57
There's a lot of areas especially in medicine where
00:24:59
people run away from any evidence. But the eos same as
00:25:02
the crypto zoologists, the people looking for unknown
00:25:04
animals always want evidence.
00:25:05
Now, suddenly when you get a high profile examples like the
00:25:09
Pentagon UFO films that were recently released, even though
00:25:12
they'd been known about for about 10 years or something, and
00:25:14
that caused a big fuss and everyone got interested and
00:25:17
therefore suddenly people started paying more attention to
00:25:20
you foes or UAP as they're called these days, unidentified
00:25:24
aerial phenomena.
00:25:25
Although someone calls it unidentified anomalous
00:25:27
phenomena, which is a bit annoying because it makes it
00:25:29
seem anomalous. But UAP or UFOs or flying sources creates a lot
00:25:33
of interest. These Pentagon things created a lot of interest
00:25:36
despite the fact that the Pentagon result was that we
00:25:38
don't know what they are.
00:25:42
Stuart Gary: Others were artifacts in the camera
00:25:44
equipment, the lenses and others were simply unexplained
00:25:48
glitches.
00:25:48
Tim Mendham: As the researcher, Mick West point about that, it's
00:25:51
amazing how poor the Pentagon investigation was when they came
00:25:54
down and said, we don't know what these are and he looked at
00:25:56
them did a few experiments and pointed out within hours what
00:25:59
they were.
00:26:01
And the thing is you do not go to UIST by and large O and say,
00:26:07
is this a UFO? Because they say yes. Although I've discussed
00:26:10
things with a number of UFO proponents, including the
00:26:12
world's most prestigious collector of UFO photography
00:26:16
Fellow in Spain. Oh yes.
00:26:17
Stuart Gary: He's written books denouncing it too. But hasn't
00:26:18
he?
00:26:19
Tim Mendham: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. He's a serious, he's a
00:26:21
believer or wants to be a believer, but he wants to
00:26:23
believe in scientific evidence.
00:26:24
And the problem is that as soon as you get this excitement going
00:26:27
on, you get real people who with a slightly more independent
00:26:30
point of view investigating and the trouble is then you expose
00:26:33
your science to more scientific rigor and what's happening with
00:26:38
the scientific rigor is that they're finding nothing there as
00:26:40
happens with Nick West. When he investigates these things, you
00:26:43
do not ask people running the UO society.
00:26:48
Stuart Gary: Most scientists, I know most astronomers and
00:26:51
physicists I know will tell you, they believe there is probably
00:26:55
life beyond Earth life on other worlds. But those worlds are a
00:26:58
long way away, far too far for those people to have traveled
00:27:02
here. That's the problem.
00:27:03
Tim Mendham: That's the problem. Maybe life out there. Heaven
00:27:06
knows there might even be intelligent life out there. That
00:27:10
yes, but I mean, they're probably not here and that's the
00:27:13
trouble and the trouble with uso evidence is that it's a lot of
00:27:16
bad evidence. There's a lot of evidence but it's bad if you
00:27:18
market that a 10, you probably get a lot of twos and a lot of
00:27:21
twos don't make a 10, right?
00:27:23
They don't add up. It just means there's a lot of bad evidence.
00:27:25
And the trouble is when you get a lot of bad evidence, the
00:27:27
implication is maybe the whole thing is bad. It's a shonk
00:27:30
science. If you keep doing experimental results and they
00:27:33
turning out you're probably going to say, well, probably not
00:27:35
worth pursuing.
00:27:36
That's the trouble the UFO proponents and the youths and
00:27:39
the want scientific proof, want scientific investigation. But
00:27:43
when they get it, they don't necessarily like the outcome
00:27:45
because it is saying almost without failure that there is
00:27:48
nothing there worthwhile looking at it was stuck together Well,
00:27:53
and literally so in some cases, I mean, I've had people give me
00:27:57
evidence for UFOs and things which is patently pathetic.
00:28:00
And these days, of course, with everyone having smartphones and
00:28:04
smart phones with, with the technology that stops the
00:28:07
jiggling, stop the picture shaking, they can counter for
00:28:09
that if the UFOs are out there and so common there could be
00:28:12
gazillions of bits of evidence which is decent quality sharp
00:28:15
enough, same with big, big, but all you get is photos from a
00:28:19
shaky camera and one person came to me and said, he said he kept
00:28:22
filming UFOs from his balcony.
00:28:24
And I said, well, what a shame you don't lean against the
00:28:25
balcony wall because then your camera wouldn't shake that much.
00:28:28
Stuart Gary: And you wonder why is your camera shaking north
00:28:31
facing probably seeing aircraft coming in to land on 16, right
00:28:35
at Sydney airport.
00:28:36
Tim Mendham: He was fairly near an aircraft thing, but I
00:28:38
actually sent his videos over to Mick West and this fellow in
00:28:42
Spain who were the experts on it and they both came back saying
00:28:45
balloons and saying balloons meant the person who gave me the
00:28:48
videos was rather upset.
00:28:49
And the skeptics would say they're balloons because they
00:28:54
can win against the servant believers. But I mean, you have
00:28:57
to look at the evidence and you keep saying a lot of bad
00:29:00
evidence amalgamated into good evidence. It just means the
00:29:03
evidence is getting worse and worse and worse.
00:29:04
The trouble is that when you're looking for results and you ask
00:29:08
the serious independent people to look into it, you're going to
00:29:10
get not necessarily the result you want, but that's the trouble
00:29:12
because most of you follow most serious ones I know are genuine
00:29:15
people doing what they regard as genuine research and they are on
00:29:20
the believing side of skeptical that they are still sort of
00:29:22
trying to find the evidence, which is definitive and there is
00:29:25
no.
00:29:27
Stuart Gary: Evidence that's Tim Mendham from Australian
00:29:29
Skeptics.
00:29:45
And that's the show for now. SpaceTime is available every
00:29:49
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