S27E118: Dark Matter's Hidden Forces, Naked Eye Comet, and Mars by 2028?

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: This is SpaceTime Series 27 Episode 118 for broadcast on the 30th of September 2024.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Coming up on SpaceTime, a new study suggests dark matter may be experiencing forces beyond

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_03]: gravity, a rare naked eye comet visible from Earth right now, and could humans be walking

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: on the red planet Mars in just four years time?

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: All that and more coming up on SpaceTime.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to SpaceTime with Stuart Gary.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_03]: A new study has raised the fascinating hypothesis that dark matter may be experiencing forces

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: other than gravity.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Dark matter is a mysterious invisible substance that makes up some 85% of all the matter in

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the universe.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But the problem is, scientists have absolutely no idea what it is.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's frustrating, because it means that everything you know and see about the

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: universe from the trillions upon trillions of stars and planets down to plants, cars,

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: dogs, cats, houses, and people, even subatomic particles like neutrinos and quarks, only

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: make up about 15% of all there is in the universe.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The vast majority is simply invisible.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Even though scientists can't see dark matter, they know it exists because they can see its

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: gravitational influence on normal matter.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And that makes its existence one of the most perplexing problems facing the scientific

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: community today.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And so unraveling its nature has become one of the primary goals of modern physics.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Now a new study has suggested that dark matter particles don't behave as scientists thought

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_03]: they should, in other words by only interacting with each other and with ordinary matter through

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_03]: gravity.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Instead, this new study has concluded that dark matter does fill other forces that, although

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: subdominant, offer crucial new insights into its nature.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: This new study, reported in the astrophysical journal Letters, is based on fresh observations

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: by the Hubble Space Telescope.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Over the past four decades, the dominant hypothesis has been that dark matter is composed of particles

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: with mass but with no other properties, no interactions between them or with other known

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: matter beyond the force of gravity.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And this model of dark matter is known as Collisionless Cold Dark Matter.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's useful because it explains the effects of dark matter on the formation of structures

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: in the universe.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_03]: The problem is it doesn't solve the fundamental mystery posed by dark matter, namely what

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: is it and how does its existence fit in with the known models of particle physics?

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: This new study used a new technique which analysed the distribution of light observed in very

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_03]: low mass galaxies.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: These are galaxies with only a few thousand stars in them.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_03]: See, in recent years the study of the properties of low mass galaxies, both their structure

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and their numbers, has gained attention in the astronomical community because the Collisionless

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Cold Dark Matter model doesn't seem to fully explain these types of galaxies.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Until now, none of the previous studies have been able to conclusively reject the simple

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: dark matter model as the effects of ordinary matter on galaxy properties are significant

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and compete with the effects of dark matter.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: However, the new study focused on a specific type of galaxy where the scientific community

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: considers the effects of ordinary matter play no role in shaping galaxies.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And these ultra-faint dwarf galaxies, with a million times fewer stars than say our own

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: galaxy the Milky Way, serve as ideal laboratories to explore the nature of dark matter.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the study's authors, George Sanchez Almeida from the Institute of Astrophysics

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: in the Canary Islands, says using this novel technique based solely on the distribution

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_03]: of stars allowed his team to be able to reject the Collisionless Cold Dark Matter model

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: with a fairly high statistical significance.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He says his research suggests that dark matter does more than only interact gravitationally.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: For example, if it were made of particles that would collide with each other like billiard

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: balls.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_03]: In the accepted Collisionless Dark Matter model, one of these particles would pass through

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: another without noticing it.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: To reach this conclusion, the authors discovered that the distribution of stars in these ultra-faint

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: dwarf galaxies, instead of accumulating towards the centre, remained constant.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Now if this happens, it's because something has interacted with them to change their course,

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and that something is dark matter, which contrary to previous beliefs, is itself responsible

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: for the shape of the halos in these galaxies.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the most fascinating aspects of this study is that all the galaxies studied have

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: identical stellar distributions.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It's as if these galaxies have forgotten their own evolutionary history.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: After all, they couldn't have all evolved exactly the same way.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: The authors say this must be hinting at something.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It can only be well understood if dark matter has erased these galaxies past, indicating

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that its ultimate nature is far more complex than what scientists have previously thought.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: This is space-time.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Still to come, a rare naked-eye comet visible from Earth right now, and could humans be

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_03]: walking on the red planet Mars in as little as four years from now?

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll tell you about the US presidential candidate who wants it done.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: All that and more still to come on Space Time.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: If you get up early in the mornings over the next few days, you might get the chance to

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: see a rare naked-eye comet.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: The brighter-than-expected comet, C2023A3 Sushani Atlas, can be seen right now just

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_03]: before sunrise near the eastern horizon as a small fuzzy blob.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It was discovered back in January 2023 by the Purple Mountain Observatory in China and

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: the Atlas Terrestrial Impact Last Alert System, or ATLAS, in Hawaii.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Sushani Atlas is making its closest approach to Earth right now, and it appears to be shaping

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: up to be the best comet of the year.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This comet is on an 80,000-year journey from the Oort Cloud, a diffuse collection of frozen

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: worlds, comets and icy debris stretching halfway to the next star system.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03]: The Oort Cloud is thought to be a mixture of material left over from the formation of

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: our solar system 4.6 billion years ago, and interstellar objects from other star systems

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: that are being caught up in the Sun's gravitational pull.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Sushani Atlas' highly elliptical orbit takes the comet perpendicular to the ecliptic

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the plane of planetary orbits around the Sun.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And the other day, its perihelion saw it pass closer to the Sun than the orbit of the planet

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Venus.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if it holds together as it swoops around behind the Sun and re-emerges, it should brighten

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: significantly as the heat from our local star causes more ices and gases in the nucleus

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: to sublimate, intensifying the comet's coma and tails.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if it has survived its trip around the Sun, it should become easier to see in the

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_03]: western horizon in the evening skies just after sunset from October 14.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That'll be as it travels back to the outer edge of the solar system and beyond.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, astronomers are estimating it could reach a magnitude of around plus 2.5.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Magnitude is a logarithmic measurement of apparent brightness which is used by astronomers.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, at its peak, this comet could be as bright as the planets Jupiter and Mars.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Matt Woods from the Perth Observatory says the comet's orbit suggests that it may pass

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_03]: beyond the Oort Cloud and instead end up travelling out into the frozen dark reaches

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: of interstellar space.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've had two potential naked eye comets.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The first one was 12P Pons Brooks and it just ended up being a binocular comet at best.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But Comet C2023A3 Shushan Atlas seems to be actually delivering on its potential.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you go out, especially until early October in the early morning and look east low just

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: before sunrise, you'll be able to see a lovely comet.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And what do we know about the history of this comet?

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So this seems to be a first time visitor into the inner solar system.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Its orbit they think is about just over 80,000 years.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's come from the Oort Cloud and it's very elongated.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a potential that this might not come back ever again.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It might be launched into interstellar space eventually.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's got an intricacy of 0.98.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So this thing has the potential of being ejected out of the solar system and it being

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: an interstellar comet.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know much about the Oort Cloud really.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The theory among most astronomers is that these are vagabonds from the inner solar system

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that have just made it that far out.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's also a strong idea that these could be interstellar objects that have simply

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: been captured by the sun as the sun ventures around the galaxy.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a very loose bunch of spherical objects.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And out there the sun's influence isn't very strong.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't take a lot for them to be sent into the inner solar system.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And that could be a passing star or even collected by another star if it passes too close to

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: us as well.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it is one of those interesting parts of our solar system.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very cold and still an awesome place to do some research as well.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's Matt Woods from Perth Observatory.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is Space Time.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Still to come, could humans be walking on the red planet Mars in just four years time?

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And later in the Science Report, archaeologists have discovered what appears to be the world's

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: oldest cheese.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_03]: All that and more still to come on Space Time.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Election time is funny, you know.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Here in Australia you know an election's about to be called because politicians start promising

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_03]: high-speed rail.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course they never deliver but the promise is always there.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's the same thing in the United States but on a much grander scale.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Former US President Donald Trump says he'd like to see humans walking on the red planet

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Mars by 2028.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: That's at least eight years earlier than existing plans.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_03]: The Republican presidential candidate has told a rally in Wilmington, North Carolina

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: that he'd be holding discussions with SpaceX boss Elon Musk about the possibility of Musk's

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: new interplanetary colonial transport starships being ready in time for a manned mission to

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: the red planet by the end of his second term, should he be elected in November.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Trump's decision to put a date on a potential manned mission to Mars is hugely significant

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_03]: given that he already changed US national policy in 2017 to once again make human space exploration

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_03]: a priority.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why NASA's Artemis mission will be putting people back on the moon in the next

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_03]: few years.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was the 45th President of the United States who also instigated a new military

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: wing, the US Space Force.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We will lead the world in space.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, I did Space Force.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I did that.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I rebuilt the military.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But we have Space Force first time in 79 years since Air Force.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: First time think of it Space Force and now we're leading in space over Russia and China.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They were killing us when I took over and now we're leading.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But military we're going to reach.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's my plan.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll talk to Elon.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Elon, get those rocket ships going because we want to reach Mars before the end of my

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: term.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to do it.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to have also great military protection in space because that's where it's going to

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: be at.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Trump's backing of NASA's Artemis program was one of the drivers that saw the unmanned

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Artemis 1 mission successfully orbit the moon and return safely back to Earth in November

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: 2022.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Following on from that, next year's Artemis 2 mission will see astronauts orbiting the

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: moon with the expected return of humans to the lunar surface on Artemis 3 in 2026.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_03]: However, the Artemis program has been beset by delays during the Biden presidency.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Earlier this year, NASA announced that the Artemis 2 was delayed from the end of this

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_03]: year to September next year.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: NASA says technical issues including problems with the Orion spacecraft's life support systems

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_03]: and heat shield are the primary concerns behind these delays.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: A key congressional committee was told that while the Artemis 2 mission to fly humans

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: around the moon next year was doable, taking astronauts to the lunar surface in 2026 wasn't.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The committee was told that the 12-month gap between Artemis 2 and Artemis 3 simply isn't

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_03]: enough time.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Artemis uses NASA's SLS rocket and Orion capsule.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: However, an Elon Musk-organized manned mission to Mars wouldn't be relying on these.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Instead, it would be using SpaceX's Starship, which successfully completed its first suborbital

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_03]: test flight earlier this year and is now waiting for federal approval for another

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: test flight, with a giant rocket already sitting on its launch pad at Starbase in Texas.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Australia is now a key player in the Artemis program, with NASA tasking the Australian

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Space Agency with the development of a new lunar rover to collect lunar regolith for

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: eventual conversion to oxygen to support a permanent human base on the moon.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Last year, Brisbane-based Elo 2 unveiled its first design for a lunar rover, with rival

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Perth-based company Arose following with a model of their design back in August.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: This is Space Time.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And time now to take a brief look at some of the other stories making news in science

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: this week with the Science Report.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: A new study has found that children born to mothers who are either overweight or obese,

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: both before and during their pregnancy, have an increased risk of neurological conditions

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: like autism spectrum disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: The findings by scientists at the University of South Australia involved a systematic review

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: of meta-analysis from more than 3.6 million mother-child pairs across 42 epidemiological

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: studies.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: The authors found that children born to overweight and obese mothers had a 32% increased risk

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: of ADHD and more than double the risk of autism.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Maternal obesity has long been associated with a range of adverse perinatal conditions.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: These include pre-term birth, low birth weight, stillbirth and high birth weight.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: In Australia, one person in every 150 has some level of autism and more than 8% of children

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: aged 4 to 11 have been diagnosed with ADHD.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Globally, 1 in 8 people are now living with obesity.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: There's more evidence today that global warming is causing an increase in the size,

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: frequency and severity of forest fires.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_03]: The new findings reported in the journal Nature are based on over a decade of satellite data

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: from northern temperate and borough forests, as well as across Australia.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: The data also shows that these wildfires may even be increasing land surface warming.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, scientists found a widespread warming one year after the fires and they then used

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: mathematical simulations to calculate that bigger fires increased warming on land in

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_03]: North America, eastern borough Asia and in Australia.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: They found that plants released less water and reflected less heat following fires.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: However, the increase in warming over land after fires was not seen in parts of Siberia

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and eastern Europe.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that could be due to the nature of the forests there, which are mainly composed of

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: deciduous broadleaf trees.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The authors say that planting more broadleaf trees in fire-prone forests could potentially

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: help curbing any post-fire warming.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Archaeologists have discovered what could be the world's oldest cheese.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: The 3,600-year-old dairy product was found alongside the Tarim Basin mummies in northwestern China.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Scientists extracted and analysed the DNA from these ancient cheese and found it contained

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_03]: both cow and goat DNA, as well as the DNA of microorganisms that are still used for

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_03]: cheesemaking today.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_03]: A report in the journal Cell claims the microorganism DNA allowed scientists to track the evolution

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_03]: of the bugs used to make the cheese, finding that the ancient microbes in the sample were

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03]: most closely related to strains found in Tibet.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever noticed how the once popular fad of crop circles has pretty well died out

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_03]: of late?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It would appear that the extraterrestrial visitors accused of creating these geometric

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_03]: patterns, usually found in wheat or other cereal crop fields, must have become bored

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03]: with planet Earth and have left, looking for more interesting places.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Or it could just be that the hoaxers who carried out these exercises have grown up, gotten

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_03]: jobs, maybe even got married and moved on with their lives.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But the stories of their great exploits, which usually followed a drink or three, continue

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: as Tim Mendham from Australian Skeptics explains.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So people say, wow, that's amazing.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Who could have done this?

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It must be aliens.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a bit of a leap of faith.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And these were going on, what, in the 70s, 80s, 1980s for a long time.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_04]: There are supposedly examples from way back where we, it's just sort of interesting.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically there was a huge rush of these things and it became very popular to see these things.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: People would go out and have a look and the farmers will get upset as all these tourists

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and paranormal hunters were trampling their crops.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's called serial killers.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: The interesting thing is these fields often had tractor lines and you can imagine someone

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: walking down the tractor line and then doing their circle around the area so they didn't

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_04]: have a clear exit and entrance path that they made themselves.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_04]: These things happened a lot.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: But then they started getting more complicated and not just circles, but suddenly they're

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_04]: getting sort of matrix sort of patterns and mandala sort of patterns or even the chaos

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_04]: theory, the Mandelbrot sets and all these sort of things.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So suddenly becoming in a few years from circles, plain ordinary circles to these most

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: intricate shapes.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And now two guys from the wheelchair area which is in the west of England ran near a

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_04]: lot of the old stone circles on that.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Avebury is not far away.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Avebury is a favorite place of mine.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I've been there a number of times.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Stonehenge, those little places are in the area.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's already a lot of interesting paranormal claims about the area.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_04]: These two guys said that, yeah, we're at a pub, we decided to do it for a lark and it's

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04]: not that hard to do.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_04]: You go into a crop, you stick that a bit of wood or a rod of some sort.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: A board.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: A board and then you get another board, you get some rope and you walk around it, right?

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Just knocking over the stalks.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have to be broken necessarily and that's one of the big things they said, all

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_04]: these weren't broken.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Therefore, could it be done by a human?

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they were.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Now the later ones, they got more and more complicated.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You figure out it's naughty students or something at a place with a GPS system and they work

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_04]: out a design they want to do and they do it using a GPS and they're so complicated.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_04]: They think why would a UFO or an alien want to create such intricate patterns and they're

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_04]: beautiful.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_04]: They look lovely, they're quite clever things to do.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You get up close and they're not quite as neat as they look from the air and these things

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_04]: you have to see them from the air really.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So these days, you get your drone out, you have a look at them from the air so you're

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_04]: not quite as interfering with a farmer.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Farmers caught on to this and they started charging people to go have a look at them

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to walk through until they then decided to actually harvest their crop and wiping out

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_04]: the circle.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_04]: One of the interesting things is there was a case of a crop circle mainly in England,

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_04]: mainly in this part of England, but not always.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_04]: There have supposedly been crop circles in other places including Australia and Europe,

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_04]: the US etc.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But the trend started in England that one of these crop circles had a message card that

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_04]: it was saying we are not alone and as a UFO researcher pointed out quite clearly, if it

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_04]: was done by a UFO, it would surely say you are not alone, not we.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: We is the message from the people who created the circle so there's a slight logical problem

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_04]: there.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_04]: There are supposedly examples from history way back showing these circles etc.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Not a lot.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: There's one carving, etching lithograph something like that of a devil supposedly making a circle

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: by reaping the wheat or whatever it is, whichever particular crop it is.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It looks like a circle.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be a devil reaping crops of course but it does look like a circle.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it is a circle actually.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So people can see.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It would be an alien UFO type thing then.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The link with aliens and UFOs is sort of cropped up pretty quickly.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's pretty hard wired but isn't it?

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_04]: It is.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty much you see a strange thing therefore people say strange things can't explain it

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_04]: must be aliens.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But they're not really paranormal and these guys who owned up to it were able to say oh

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah but they're just claiming it.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't really do it well.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_04]: They showed how it was done.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's pretty straightforward.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Explanation is a lot simpler than you do.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_04]: You get the complicated ones and you get a bit more involved.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: What gets me is how easily people are fooled by these sort of things.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's also religious leanings that they want to believe.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_04]: If you know your ex-files mottoes, I want to believe is what they do.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a story on this website that I often refer to called Higgy Pop which is a bit of

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_04]: a paranormal pop culture thing and this fellow described a trip he made out to see some crop

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_04]: circles and he said they went from a crop circle museum.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: They said there's the one that's just appeared because you've got to get them at the right

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_04]: time otherwise the farmers wipe them out.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So you probably only got a matter of days or something to go see one of these things.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_04]: He and his partner went down to have a look at this, wandered through the crop circle.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_04]: They said it was very nice, a little bit eerie sort of feeling and they came up to various

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of spaces in this crop circle and there were people sitting down there communing with

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_04]: nature etc., that sort of stuff.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And actually he said they're all very friendly.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_04]: He said even though the circles are fake and he says so, he says they're obviously man-made.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: He said the scenery is nice because this is a nice part of England.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He said but the people are really nice, really friendly.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not antagonistic.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They're hippie sorts of people who are going out to these things.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a fun thing.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a pretty harmless thing except when people start sort of making it into a cult

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and I don't think it's ever gone that far.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_04]: The complex pattern was pretty much right off any theory that it might be alien, extraterrestrial

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_04]: things because the evolution of these things from circles to complicated shapes is so quick.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Why would an alien bother doing going from a straightforwardly circle to something really

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_04]: complicated and very hard to do?

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Well there's nothing like travelling for 30 or 40 light years just to do circles in the

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03]: ground and then go away again.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They probably got bored.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: That's Tim Mindom from Australian Sceptics.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You've been listening to Spacetime with Stuart Gary.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: This has been another quality podcast production from Bytes.com.