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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Y'all ready to be history?
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Get started.
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Welcome.
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Hi.
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Hi.
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Hi.
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Hello, everyone.
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To the Pro Audio Suite.
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These guys are professional, they're motivated.
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With Tech the VO stars, George Witton, founder
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of Source Elements, Robert Marshall, international audio engineer,
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Darren Robbo-Robertson, and global voice, Andrew Peters.
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Thanks to Triboo, Austrian Audio, Making Passion Heard,
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Source Elements, George the Tech Witton, and Robbo
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and AP's international demos.
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To find out more about us, check theproaudiosuite
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.com.
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Line up, man.
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Here we go.
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And welcome to another Pro Audio Suite.
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Thanks to Tribooth.
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Don't forget the code, TRIPAP200, to get $200
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off your Tribooth, and Austrian Audio, Making Passion
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Heard.
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Today's topic, I'm going to steal this one,
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and I will give credit to Bobby Yosinski,
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his podcast, The Inner Circle.
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He's doing an interview, and one of the
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subjects sort of jumped out at me, and
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I thought, that's interesting.
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Being a person who holds a lot of
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expensive outboard gear, and I know Robert has
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the same habit, is it worth hanging on
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to, and will it go up in value?
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And is it better than plugins?
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That is my question I pose to you.
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I think you've got to frame it by
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whose point of view.
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From a studio owner's point of view, or
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commercial studio owner's point of view, from a
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voice actor's point of view, and from just
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like a sheer collector's point of view.
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From a hoarder's point of view.
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I think, well, there's a few different points
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of view.
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I mean, if I was to sell my
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stuff, then I'd probably end up selling it
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to a commercial studio, I'm guessing, because a
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voice over talent's not going to buy the
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stuff I've got in here.
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But a music studio, I may.
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Right.
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So, what we're banking on, is there going
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to be more commercial grade music studios vying
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for this less and less common gear.
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It's harder to get.
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That would drive up the price.
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Because, I mean, the thing is, a lot
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of the stuff you buy now, there's so
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many clones of all this classic gear.
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Purple, and warm, and there's all these companies,
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right?
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But don't you reckon there's something tactile about
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turning a knob, you know, or adjusting it?
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Yeah, but you can get that with a
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clone of the new stuff, as the old
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stuff.
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Not even a digital clone, but an actual
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analog clone.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You can get that.
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And some of that kind of holds its
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value, probably.
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But the original LA-2As, and the original
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1176s, those go way up in value.
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I had an original Tube Screamer pedal that
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was stolen from me.
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And those things are like $1, and
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I have a reissue now of a Tube
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Screamer, and I don't know if it sounds
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different or not.
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So somebody out there, those pedals are worth
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a lot more when they're the original one,
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that they don't make anymore, that has the
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what-have-you chip in it, that you
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can't get anymore.
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So I don't know that a lot of
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that stuff really makes such a huge difference
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in sound, to be honest.
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Like a purple 1176 is still a really
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great compressor, as an original 1176.
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But there's definitely a lot of cachet.
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Yeah, it's like microphones, really.
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I mean, you know, a classic E47, you're
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going to be paying like $25 for
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it, or a U67 for sure.
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So, you know, I mean, I'm guessing it's
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going to be the same with Outboard.
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If you had a 2254, an original square
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2254, that would be worth a fortune.
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Probably like $10 or something, or more,
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I don't know.
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So a lot of people are getting used
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to, this was the interesting part, it's like
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you get a reference.
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So if you started as an intern in
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a studio, and you worked your way up
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in a proper commercial studio, you have a
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reference in your head, you know, the sound
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of the real stuff.
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So when you hear a clone, you know,
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unless it's a very good clone, you'll pick
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it, you'll pick the difference.
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But a lot of people are kicking off
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their careers in bedrooms, so they have no
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reference of what this stuff sounds like.
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I mean, let's just take something we're looking
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at.
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How close is that 737 plug-in to
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those units behind you?
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Oh, right here?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's pretty close, because I've, you know, the
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reason I have some to get rid of
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is we've been replacing them with the virtual
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plug-in.
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And in this particular case, in my opinion,
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the 737 preamps being class A, they're very,
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very clean.
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I mean, they really have no character to
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them.
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They don't have transformers, and they just have
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a really clean sound.
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So in my opinion, they're really easy to
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replace, because they don't really have much sound,
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character to them, not like a Neve or
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something.
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So in my opinion, it's very easy to
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replace them.
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Now we've used the plug-ins, and we
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did some extensive testing with one of my
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clients, obsessively so.
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We did hear a difference between his particular
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Avalon 737 and the plug-in we were
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using, that it was an EQ thing.
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I found a little frequency that I...
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Is it better or worse, or just different,
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you know?
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It wasn't a better or worse thing, it
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was just not exactly identical.
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There was something in the mids, like in
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the 2k-ish, where somewhere that wasn't exactly
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the same, and we bumped one up a
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dB or two.
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I mean, it was similar.
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It was really, really similar.
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I think a better comparison could be maybe,
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and I don't have one, of course, but
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a Manley VoxBox to the VoxBox plug-in.
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If someone wants to buy me the Manley
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VariMu, I've got a VariMu.
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You have a VariMu?
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I have a VariMu, yeah.
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Oh, wow.
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Do they still make those?
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I think so.
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Okay.
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So what's the concept behind a VariMu?
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The compression style, it's like, I forget exactly,
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but it's like, you know, instead of an
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optical, it's a variable Mu, which I would
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have to AI it to re-remember.
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You have to Google that one.
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, speaking of AI, I used
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an AI, and I put into the system,
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here, has the value of used vintage audio
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recording equipment increased at a rate that outpaces
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inflation?
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Well, the first piece of data it gave
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me was about new audio gear, and that
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clearly is a different story.
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It says it has deflated sharply since 1977.
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So, you know, the equivalent of a $20
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to, is about, $20 with a gear in
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77 would now be $5.80 worth.
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Like if you're going to go buy a
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receiver, right?
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There's just, they've devalued because they've gotten so
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much cheaper to produce.
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But let's talk about vintage gear, and again,
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it's doing a comparison here of consumer stuff,
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not pro.
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Yeah.
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I want to mention a Sansui G9000.
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It has doubled in value in two years,
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while some Marantz units are escalating rapidly also.
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But others have noted that things like the
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1178, it says, 1178.
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1178?
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Yeah, that's- It might be, I mean,
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that's a home stereo amp, or the-
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No, now it's going into pro audio, and
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I think it's starting to hallucinate, because the
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model numbers are 1178LA2A and CL1B.
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Anybody know what a CL1B is?
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The CL1B is a modern re-create of
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a Tubetech, I mean, is a Tubetech re
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-create of a Pultec- Yeah, so these
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model numbers are a little bit word-synced.
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I think, or CL1B is known as a
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compressor.
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So- It's a Tubetech compressor though.
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So a community member notes that reissues and
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vintage models from a rate, they climbed from
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2 to 2 and over 3
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during the pandemic era.
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Certain brands from the 1670s continue to go
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up in price because of reputation and looks.
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They're going up roughly the same rate as
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the stock market, says somebody on Gearspace.
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Oh, wow, okay.
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Well, here's one I can tell you, I've
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got a Neve 1073 DPA.
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I bought it probably 10 years ago, I
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guess.
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I think I paid $2 for it.
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I've just seen the used one on eBay
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for 4.
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Wow, so 10 years ago, you doubled your
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money.
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If you could sell it for that.
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I always search for closed or completed sales
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because there's a lot of like, I'll put
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it, there's a lot of stuff on eBay
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that is the wife has been nagging me
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to sell this shit for years.
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So I'll put it up on eBay for
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aspirational price and just let it sit there
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for five years so that she doesn't nag
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me about it.
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Honey, it's on eBay.
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I'll tell you one that I did actually
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do really well on.
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I bought a Neve eight channel mixer from
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the 80s right after like Rupert left.
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So it's like, and I bought that thing
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for five grand and I think it's 15
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now.
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Some people try to get 15 for
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it now.
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I don't know if they're getting it though
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again.
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I think it has to be really venerable.
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The stuff, the more it's knocked off, the
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more it's probably worth.
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Wouldn't you say?
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Yeah.
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So this one's not knocked off a lot.
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And if anything, it's knocked on like, you
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know, all the Neve snobs were like, that's
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not a Neve because Neve wasn't there when
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Neve made that.
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Oh, I see.
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That's a John Pope.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You know.
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What model is the one you're talking about,
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AP?
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The 1073 DPA, which is IMS Neve.
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But if your 1073 was an original 1073,
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it'd be like fricking $10 more.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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In the States.
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Because yours is an actual Neve recreate, but
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it is a Neve.
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Yeah.
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It's legit.
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It's not like a heritage.
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Oh, it's basically like Neumann.
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It's a circuit match, right?
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It's an exact circuit match.
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Well, as much as Neve can match it.
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A brand new one in the U.S.
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right now is 2743.
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Yeah.
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So that's 540s.
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With the exchange rate up there, close to
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4.
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Yeah.
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Which is about the same.
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What are Verimuse going for?
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I don't know.
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I'm on Reverb.
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You guys use Reverb down under?
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I've bought a lot of stuff off Reverb.
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Have I?
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I know of Reverb, but no.
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I don't know whether people sell much.
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No.
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What's Reverb?
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It's very trustworthy.
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It's good for pricing, that's for sure.
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Yeah.
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So...
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Five grand?
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5?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So I got mine for four.
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But you can buy them for 3
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bucks.
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Used.
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So, $3.
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It's like, I've lost money on that one.
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The 2254 Neve compressor, the AMS version, which
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is what I've got here.
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A new one of those is 4
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Australian dollars.
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But if you have a 2254 limited compressor
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vintage rack stereo pair, U.S. dollars?
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12.
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Hmm.
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So, yeah.
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I mean, there's certain gear that is still
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very commonly available and or still being made
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new, which definitely is going to happen.
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You know, like the Avalon's are a great
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example.
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They still produce these.
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I think the Varium U is still being
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made.
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Right.
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So, that drives down the use price a
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fair deal.
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And I thought these things were worth well
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over two grand.
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They're worth 1 to 1 bucks,
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the Avalon's.
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For those Avalon's?
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And you know what?
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Every one of them that I'm selling has
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been refurbed.
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So, there's about $500 to $700 in labor
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into each one of these units.
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So, I have to recoup 1.
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I can recoup 1 bucks maybe on
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these.
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But yeah, they're definitely not going up in
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value in terms of used market, the Avalon's.
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They're pretty kind of stable.
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The other question is, as people dealing with
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audio, can you hear the difference between a
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clone or a plug-in as opposed to
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a real piece of…
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Well, I mean, you can have five LA
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-2As that are all going to sound different,
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right?
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Yeah.
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And that's the problem with anything that's got
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tubes or old wiring and capacitors and stuff.
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All that stuff degrades and ages over time.
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So, like I said, when I bring these
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Avalon's into my friends over at Audio Rehab,
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which is the official repair center of Avalon
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for the entire United States, it's going to
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come out of there benching as a new
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unit.
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No questions asked.
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No, you would not hear the difference in
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that case.
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But yeah, when they're truly vintage and they
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haven't been benched in 5, 10, 20 years,
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yeah, they're all going to sound different for
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sure.
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In fact, even UA has in their library
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of teletronics LA-2As, their models, there's three
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or four different models.
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They all have a different image on the
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screen and one looks like it's got little
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Dymo labels stuck on it, like somebody's original
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piece of gear out of his…
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It probably came out of, you know, what's
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-his-face's studio.
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And people played with this.
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Who's the plug-in manufacturer that we interviewed
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where it's like, that's not just anything for
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a child, that's so-and-so's for a
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child that we cloned?
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then the other one is Plugin Alliance
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that they have.
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Imagine you have a Neve desk and there's
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80 channels in the Neve desk.
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It's expected that not all 80 channels are
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the same.
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And so in their plug-in, when you
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throw the plug-in down many times, they
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have a setting that they have patented that
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gives every single plug-in reiteration of that
00:13:38
within your DAW a different sound.
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Oh my God.
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You didn't know about that?
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No, I mean, that's not the world I
00:13:46
live in, but that's insane.
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I mean, I know what it's all about,
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authenticity, but holy smokes.
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Well, it's like sampled instruments.
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Sampled pianos and Rhodes and stuff only got
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good when they started sampling them at every
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velocity, you know, softer, harder, harder, harder, harder,
00:14:06
you know?
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And it's still not good enough.
00:14:09
It's still not the same.
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When you go with the really soft, you're
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like, man, I can hit a piano hammer
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so soft that it doesn't make any sound.
00:14:16
Right, yeah.
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Yes.
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Plugin Alliance calls it variable harmonics.
00:14:20
Wow.
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And you can make it...
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Is it sort of a randomizer?
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It's a randomizer that changes the TVT.
00:14:28
No, no, no, sorry, sorry.
00:14:30
Tolerance Modeling Technology, TMT, patented by Brainworks.
00:14:35
This technology is used by many plug-in
00:14:37
products, including the Lyndall Audio 50 Series.
00:14:41
Functionality, TMT emulates the minor component variations found
00:14:45
in various analog hardware.
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This process adds a slight realistic difference in
00:14:49
tolerance between every single plug-in channel.
00:14:52
I don't like the way this mix sounds.
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Hang on, hit the button.
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Click.
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Let me fuck it up.
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Randomize all the models.
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Right.
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Do it again.
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Now that's better.
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I think I like that better.
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Now go back to the first one.
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I can't.
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It was random.
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So by introducing these subtle imperfections, TMT creates
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harmonic variations across multiple tracks, which provides depth
00:15:15
and realism associated with analog consoles.
00:15:18
Wow.
00:15:19
Maybe they couldn't make it consistent, and then
00:15:22
they called it a feature.
00:15:23
There you go.
00:15:25
Well, if it's machine learning based, then it
00:15:28
would have problems.
00:15:29
Patent that flaw.
00:15:30
Well, anything that's machine learning has problems with
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consistency.
00:15:32
If that's part of what's going on, I
00:15:35
don't think so.
00:15:36
Yeah.
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Yeah.
00:15:38
That's fascinating.
00:15:39
And I haven't really seen machine learning entering
00:15:41
the world of modeled preamps and modeled gear
00:15:44
yet, so I guess that's the next thing
00:15:46
probably.
00:15:47
You could go to the plug-in and
00:15:48
go type into the thing.
00:15:51
I just hit you with a hammer three
00:15:53
times.
00:15:54
What do you sound like now?
00:15:56
You know, it's like microphonic and it's distorting.
00:16:03
It's like the spring reverb that they modeled
00:16:06
the sound of someone kicking the amp.
00:16:09
Right.
00:16:09
They did that.
00:16:11
Did they really?
00:16:12
Yes.
00:16:13
And one of the soft tube spring reverb,
00:16:16
you can flick it and it, you know,
00:16:20
like there's a knob for it.
00:16:23
It really does depend on how unique the
00:16:28
pre is, I think, or the pieces.
00:16:30
How hard it is to find and how
00:16:32
popular it is right now.
00:16:34
Some of it's not really like gaining.
00:16:36
Some of it's matching, you know, like inflation
00:16:40
and some is outpacing it.
00:16:42
Some is doing as well as stock.
00:16:43
I mean, if you have a used piece
00:16:44
of gear that's doing as well as the
00:16:45
stock market, that's pretty good.
00:16:47
Because the stock market is better than real
00:16:49
estate.
00:16:50
And at least here it is.
00:16:56
But we've also seen the real estate market
00:16:59
go haywire too.
00:17:02
So it's fascinating to look at.
00:17:04
But it doesn't really go down or down
00:17:07
fast.
00:17:08
So there's that.
00:17:10
I mean, I have a bag of junk
00:17:12
silver that hasn't really gone up in value
00:17:14
in the last 10 years.
00:17:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:16
I might actually have lost money on that.
00:17:19
If you talk to Andrew Sheps, he mixes
00:17:21
in the box now.
00:17:22
Yeah.
00:17:23
You mean the creator of the Sheps Omnichannel?
00:17:26
Yeah.
00:17:26
Yeah, of course.
00:17:27
He made his own plug-in.
00:17:29
Why would you spend all the time to
00:17:30
make a plug-in if you didn't believe
00:17:32
it was amazing?
00:17:33
But, I mean, you recall the desk.
00:17:35
And you know how clients are.
00:17:37
And it's a business.
00:17:40
And it is so much more practical to
00:17:43
mix in the box and recall that thing
00:17:45
and make a tweak.
00:17:46
Yep.
00:17:46
And the most you want to have is
00:17:48
maybe something on your master chain.
00:17:50
But if you get too far out on
00:17:52
gear, you can only mix it in one
00:17:55
place.
00:17:56
You can't have it on your laptop.
00:17:57
You can't recall it and do a quick
00:17:58
change for somebody.
00:17:59
Let's talk about summing amplifiers sometime too.
00:18:02
That's a whole other mystical piece of the
00:18:05
mix down puzzle.
00:18:06
Summing amps.
00:18:07
Or even people just talking about different DAWs
00:18:09
having different summing characteristics.
00:18:12
I always use the Harrison DAW because of
00:18:16
its summing.
00:18:18
Oh, it's real analog.
00:18:20
Or UA is trying to say that their
00:18:24
Luna sounds real.
00:18:29
And then Pro Tools has heat on the
00:18:31
mix bus.
00:18:31
Right.
00:18:32
Which is literally just all of these things
00:18:34
are distortions.
00:18:34
Just distortions.
00:18:35
Yeah.
00:18:36
Tape saturators, virtual tape decks, et cetera, et
00:18:39
cetera, et cetera.
00:18:40
Yeah.
00:18:41
I can say having used tape saturators and
00:18:43
real tape, it's really hard to get one
00:18:45
that feels really exactly the same.
00:18:48
Oh, yeah.
00:18:49
There's just something about tracking drums through tape
00:18:51
that works really well.
00:18:53
It takes away a lot of compressor work
00:18:55
later.
00:18:55
And I think it's really the drums themselves.
00:18:57
Yeah, it does the compression for you.
00:18:59
You don't have to spend nearly as much
00:19:00
time monkeying with compressors trying to get that.
00:19:03
Yeah, it just kind of gets them in
00:19:05
a nice fat, kind of consistent.
00:19:07
I don't know about consistent, but just has
00:19:12
a certain roundness without being overly compressed.
00:19:16
And it just happens for you so much
00:19:18
easier.
00:19:19
And then you try the tape emulators, and
00:19:21
they're just flipping them on and off.
00:19:23
You're like, can I hear it?
00:19:24
And probably the difference is the tape deck
00:19:26
is really messed up.
00:19:28
The tape emulators are emulating a tape deck
00:19:31
that's properly set up.
00:19:32
Meanwhile, your love of the tape deck is
00:19:35
it's not really well calibrated or hasn't been
00:19:38
calibrated in a while.
00:19:39
Well, I mean, I've been listening to cassette
00:19:40
tapes a little bit because I bought my
00:19:42
daughter a cassette boom box, little mini tiny
00:19:44
one that has CD player in the top
00:19:46
and Bluetooth and stuff.
00:19:48
And I was at her house, and I
00:19:49
played a tape that I'd bought for her,
00:19:52
a Billie Eilish tape, her newest albums on
00:19:54
cassette.
00:19:55
And I played it back on her deck,
00:19:58
and it sounded like shit.
00:19:59
I was like, is that the deck or
00:20:03
is that the tape, right?
00:20:05
So fortunately, I had made her a dub
00:20:07
of my own.
00:20:08
I took her top 30 songs on Spotify,
00:20:11
recorded them through a Sony cassette deck that
00:20:14
I bummed off a friend of mine who
00:20:15
never uses it, right?
00:20:17
And it won't rewind, but it still records
00:20:19
perfectly.
00:20:21
And I made a tape for her.
00:20:23
I had that tape too.
00:20:24
I put that into her deck, and it
00:20:26
sounded so much better.
00:20:28
All it did remind me is that bin
00:20:30
-looped mass-produced cassettes still sound like garbage.
00:20:33
Sound like garbage.
00:20:34
Maybe Billie Eilish cleaned the heads of her
00:20:37
tape deck.
00:20:38
Right?
00:20:39
But the point of those cassettes is not
00:20:41
at all about quality because I was shocked
00:20:43
at how good the tape sounded when I
00:20:45
made that one for my daughter.
00:20:46
I actually sat and listened to pretty much
00:20:48
the whole tape, headphones plugged right into the
00:20:50
deck.
00:20:51
And I was like, damn, this sounds pretty
00:20:52
good.
00:20:52
Because you can't hear above 14k anymore?
00:20:55
It just sounded pretty solid, you know?
00:20:57
It sounded clean and good.
00:20:58
And then I shipped her off the tape.
00:21:01
But I don't know, my point being, I
00:21:03
guess, is that, you know, I don't know
00:21:06
what my point is.
00:21:07
Go ahead, AP.
00:21:08
I was just going to say that I
00:21:09
remember years ago, I was back in the
00:21:12
80s, I was in the UK doing some
00:21:13
interviews, and they'd always give you like a
00:21:16
white label or promotional copy of whatever record
00:21:20
you're going to be talking to the person
00:21:22
about.
00:21:23
And the best one I got was actually,
00:21:25
which I've since lost, which is so annoying,
00:21:27
it was the drummer from Orange Juice, a
00:21:29
guy called Zigbang Yika.
00:21:30
And they gave me his album on cassette,
00:21:33
and it was a chrome cassette, chrome tape.
00:21:36
Man, did that sound good.
00:21:38
They can sound good, yeah.
00:21:39
Yeah, that was very good.
00:21:40
So here's one that went up in value.
00:21:42
I still have my Tanscam 688 8-track
00:21:45
cassette.
00:21:46
I bought it in 1994 or 1992.
00:21:52
New.
00:21:53
No, no, I bought it like 1990.
00:21:56
Okay, so it was used.
00:21:57
I graduated in 92.
00:21:59
So I bought it new in 1990.
00:22:01
Oh, new, yeah.
00:22:03
And it was $1.
00:22:05
I took a loan out to buy that
00:22:06
thing.
00:22:06
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of money.
00:22:09
Now, one in good condition, it's $2.
00:22:14
Well, is that keeping up with inflation?
00:22:16
But that's probably not the same value as
00:22:17
the $1 I spent.
00:22:19
No, because I love this.
00:22:20
I don't think that kept up with inflation.
00:22:22
Okay, so ready?
00:22:23
If you took $1 and put it
00:22:25
in the stock market, this would be funny.
00:22:26
Don't depress yourself.
00:22:28
Yeah, you'd be about $2.
00:22:31
$1 times, we're going to say 5%.
00:22:33
And what is that, 1990?
00:22:35
So 10, 20, 35 years?
00:22:39
35 years ago, yeah.
00:22:40
That's frightening, isn't it, 35 years ago?
00:22:42
Good God.
00:22:44
Yeah, if you put it in the stock
00:22:45
market, you'd have $8.
00:22:50
And that's conservative.
00:22:52
You probably would have a lot more than
00:22:53
that.
00:22:53
Which we'd buy you a meat pie and
00:22:55
a beer these days anyway.
00:22:56
So, you know.
00:22:57
Yeah, that's right.
00:22:58
We're doing 20% lately.
00:23:02
Yeah, 20%, you'd have a crapload.
00:23:05
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:23:06
You could buy my stuff, and then I
00:23:07
could invest the money into something else.
00:23:09
There you have it.
00:23:11
Pro Audio gear, not a solid.
00:23:12
I had a hell of a lot of
00:23:14
fun with that thing.
00:23:15
Yeah.
00:23:16
It ain't all about the resale value.
00:23:18
No.
00:23:19
Well, that was fun.
00:23:20
Is it over?
00:23:21
It's over with me.
00:23:22
The Pro Audio Suite.
00:23:24
With thanks to Tribooth.
00:23:25
And Austrian Audio.
00:23:27
Recorded using Source Connect.
00:23:28
Edited by Andrew Peters.
00:23:30
And mixed by Robbo.
00:23:31
Got your own audio issues?
00:23:33
Just ask Robbo.com.
00:23:35
And tech support from George the Tech Witter.
00:23:37
Don't forget to subscribe to the show.
00:23:38
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00:23:41
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00:23:43
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00:23:44
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