- How they discovered their voices were being used
- The legal and ethical grey areas of AI voice cloning
- Their fight for control through advocacy with NAVA (National Association of Voice Actors)
- The groundbreaking tech tools being developed to protect voice actors
- What YOU can do to secure your voice and future
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Roberts and global voice repeaters.
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AI is a hot topic,
and we have a couple of guests
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to talk about trying to beat AI
or at least control it a little.
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We have the Russell, Gallaher and CC.
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You. Thanks for having us.
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Thanks for having us.
Oh, you've been had.
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If you believe you're really on the
podcast, thousands of admiring fans.
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Womp womp.
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Who wants to fire off first?
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How are you going to save
the voiceover industry from AI?
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We are.
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Thank you so much for asking.
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We are, you know.
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So here's the here's the thing.
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Larissa and I have both been voice
actors for many, many years.
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I've been a voice actress
for, 17, 18 years.
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I've worked in all the mediums
that there are here.
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And when I started finding my voice
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on multiple websites
without my consent,
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and when I reached out
to the companies that were,
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offering access to my voice for money
without paying me anything.
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And I said to them, hey, that's me.
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You don't have my permission to have
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my replica in the first place,
and you're not paying me for it.
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Please remove it.
They said no, really?
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They said you don't own your voice.
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And, they were right.
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So this approach has been multi-fold
number one.
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I sit on the board of the National
Association of Voice Actors.
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Anybody in the voiceover industry,
I would hope, is familiar with Nava
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and the work that they've been doing.
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They also spawned Ava
in Australia and Canada and,
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multiple other,
advocacy groups around the globe.
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We've been working with legislators
to get meaningful laws
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passed around the protection
of our voices.
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Adding the definition of voice
to biometric data
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and copyrightable data,
which is currently not a thing.
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So in addition
to doing the legislative path
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and really
working to get laws passed,
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you know, Larissa and I and
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our co-founder Julian started talking
and saying, you know,
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even if we get these laws passed,
there is nobody that is going to care
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more about a voice actors
voice than voice actors.
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Why are we not starting
our own company?
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Why are we not trying to beat them
at their own game?
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Why are we not planting a stake
in the ground and saying, great,
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we understand this technology is
here.
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It's not moving backwards.
It's only getting better.
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This is how we expect to be treated
as human beings and as professionals.
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And I think there's a a dignity
to that that other companies
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just aren't offering
because they are scraping every.
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So so I just want to peel
a few things back.
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Just the first thing you said,
which is you don't actually
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have rights to your own voice.
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Can you elaborate on currently?
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Yeah. Yeah. So we've never had to.
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So if you look at biometric data
and, rights of publicity,
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it always refers to name,
image, likeness.
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So for example, a celebrity can say
that's my picture on a billboard.
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You don't have my permission
to use my picture on a billboard.
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That is an infringement
of my rights of publicity.
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And you have to take it down.
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Great voice was never
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they never needed to add it
to any of those definitions,
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because we never had technology
that could believably copy it until,
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several years ago.
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Well, they didn't pass any laws
about this, but several years ago,
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I believe it was a Toyota dealership.
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Hired
someone to sound like Bette Midler
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because they went to Bette Midler
and said,
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hey, we really want you to do our ad.
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And she said, no, go pound rocks.
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And so they hired a sound
alike to come do it and pass it off
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as Bette Midler.
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She was able to sue and get it
taken down because she's a celebrity.
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Right.
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So she is able to get some,
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you know, rights of publicity
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associated to her voice
because she is a well known quantity.
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The rest of us are not.
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So right now
you're having a spate of,
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you know, people getting fake
kidnaping
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phone calls from, like, a loved one
who's been kidnaped and sent $10
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to this Nigerian prince
to get your, kid back or whatever.
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And they're very believable
and they're very convincing,
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and they're not illegal yet
because there are no laws.
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So comment on this one.
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I can't name names,
but a friend of mine is the voice
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of a international reality
show, doing it for years.
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It's a good gig.
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And over the years,
they've, beat them up.
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We can't now pay
you residuals for international play.
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We're going to pay you a flat rate
for this.
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We're going to lower your contract
for that.
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Every year they sign it again
because they need the gig.
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And then one year they say we're
only going to hire you for pickups.
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And, and and they're like for what?
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They're like, well the pickups
we can't get the eye to do correctly.
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And then they say, well,
I didn't give you permission.
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And then they pull out
whatever contract they signed
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and said, well,
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you gave us the rights to own
everything and therefore we own it.
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We can pump it into the theft machine
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and you have no right to say that
we don't and kick rocks.
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And then they said, well, I guess
that's the end of our relationship.
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I'm never going to do a pickup
with you.
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So good luck using the I.
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And you have what you have, I guess.
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And it just destroyed the whole
or possibly I don't know, it's
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just an awful situation and it seems,
you know, obviously all driven
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by how far low can we drive
the budgets and drive profit.
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And it didn't need to happen.
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Laws are currently being crafted
to combat exactly that
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because we as voice actors,
you all know, have to typically
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sign contracts, especially for games
and especially for, you know,
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this type of job
that says in perpetuity
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throughout the known universe
and any technology
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currently existing
or to be developed.
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Well, I'm sorry, that cannot
hold up in a court of law.
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And there are laws being crafted
right now that specify exactly
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that any contract
that was signed with that language
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cannot possibly
be held up in a court of law, because
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that's ridiculous and egregious.
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So there is legislation coming,
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but the government takes its sweet
time to get it done.
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Yeah.
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If I can interject, that was
that was kind of part of that.
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Everyone, is part
of the other reason that,
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you know, kind
of we wanted to set this standard
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because the current companies out
there that are providing
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AI and providing these solutions
for everyone,
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a kind of throwing their hands
up in the air and going.
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But it's impossible.
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We can't do this.
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It's and it's not true.
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It's very difficult
because they built they did the old
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Silicon Valley, you know,
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for free, break things,
break out forgiveness later.
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And so we were like, well, look, part
of this is about setting a standard
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and proving that it can be done,
proving that it's not impossible,
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and that we're going to try
and do it.
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Part of our going to Sag-Aftra
was about saying, we want to create
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a training foundational model
that isn't scraped.
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Is it going to cost money? Yes.
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Is it going to be difficult? Yes.
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But if we can prove it can be done
and people are trying to do it,
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it just makes it a little bit harder
for the bad actors to go.
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But no, you can't, can't, can't
I don't know.
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So that's, that's kind of the,
the whole journey is as long as
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there are people
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who are doing the bad things
and there's
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no one proving that you can do it
otherwise,
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then why wouldn't they keep doing it?
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So we're we're we're on the journey
to kind of prove that it can be done.
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And we're making huge headway
with the companies coming to us
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going, please, this is all we want
because these guys are great
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and they're amazing.
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But the ethical authenticated
contract
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did past line
back to the beginning doesn't exist.
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And that's what we want.
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And that's what
we're kind of came about to show.
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We can do that
and we're going to make it happen.
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If I may also real quickly
because we come from this industry,
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we're not some tech bros coming in
and being like, yeah,
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but I got this tech and it's super,
bro dude.
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Right?
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We're actually
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coming in saying, listen,
we understand the existing ecosystem.
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Ecosystem.
We understand the infrastructure.
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We understand the agency landscape.
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This is the thing that we want
to include in this conversation.
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We're not trying to be
a casting place.
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We're not trying to be a marketplace.
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We want to make this a thing
that works for this industry, right?
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With a technology
that is getting insanely good.
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And if we don't step up and say,
cool, cool, cool, that's great.
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But I'm a human being and
this is how you work with my replica.
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This is my agent.
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She'll negotiate my contract right?
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We have to put our foot down
to say how we expect
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to be treated
in this situation. Right?
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I mean, there's
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just no difference to me
between then then musicians getting,
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you know, as soon as you replicate
more than 2 or 3 notes in a melody.
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Tenant.
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No no no no no no no no no
no no no no no.
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Anybody remember
that. Ice. Ice maybe.
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Oh sorry.
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It's melody.
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It's it's rhythm
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I mean what
what makes Christopher Walken
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Christopher Walken
is his delivery right.
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So you can't just,
you know, this translates directly
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to what voices are and voices
and likeness are to my in my opinion.
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But of course, these are prior
art things
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that you have to call against
and say, yo, yeah,
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I think the problem is
that the companies that did
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this went racing to an obvious fact,
and then they're like,
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well,
you didn't to find theft before.
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And it's like you knew absolutely
what it was before you started.
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And just because you have like,
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and the best parallel is,
is your image likeness.
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If this whole paradigm exists
with your image,
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how can it not exist with you?
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Well, and for Scarlett Johansson
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to get the traction she did
when OpenAI released her.
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Right.
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That's basically saying
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even if it was not Scarlett
Johansson at the end,
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if it was a different workflow,
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she clearly hired her
to sound like Scarlett
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and then released it with a tweet
00:10:21
that said her, hi, here's
my right of publicity.
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You cannot make money off of my name.
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But but everyone deserves
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some some level of right,
of publicity, of their own voice.
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And and the other thing I think,
who is it like?
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Siri, not Siri? TikTok.
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When one voice actress Bev standing.
Yeah.
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Oh, she settled out of court.
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I think she settled so
no one knows what the settlement was.
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And I think that was a
bit of possibly a disservice,
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to, to not
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really rake them over the coals
in public and.
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Sure,
but she's a one person voice actress
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going up against a multi
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and national conglomerate
with billions of dollars.
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And she was.
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But if she had gone into open court,
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they would have dragged it out
for years.
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I mean, listen,
00:11:06
we've had a lot of conversations
about like court cases, right?
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And oftentimes in a court case,
it doesn't matter if you're right, it
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matters if you have the money
to withstand the other guy.
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Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
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And he's something I was going to ask
you. Right.
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Because, you know, with what
you're suggesting, how does it work?
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Like it's okay for voice actors
and all that sort of stuff.
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It's going to be clear. Right.
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But say, you know, little Freddy
who has a podcast with his mate,
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they record in their bedroom.
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If someone
decided that they liked his voice
00:11:36
and they were going to clone him,
how does he look after himself?
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Because little Freddy
can't even afford a court case.
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Let me tell you, you can't.
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Even voice actors can't do this
because I have clients that I know
00:11:48
have loaded sub mixes into what
have you.
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I machine to get a scratch track out,
and there's no concept that,
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oh, I've loaded this until just like
the open end of it, that takes it.
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And the closest example I have
is like the fly
00:12:04
where like you go into the pod
and the fly flew in the pod
00:12:06
two and now your voice comes out
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with like a fly
sticking out the side of it.
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And, and you're in it,
you're in it, you're not in it.
00:12:14
It's arguable that it's all you.
00:12:15
It's half you because your data
has been put into this
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giant mill without you
having any input about that.
00:12:23
And the fact that anybody
can put anybody's voice into it
00:12:27
is a problem in and of itself.
00:12:30
Agreed.
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There's only one way I can say
that you could have ever control this
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properly, control the input,
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and I can't see it actually happening
anyway.
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Is that there?
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If there was some way
and we talked about this
00:12:40
with Tim Friedman,
was that correct for you?
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Friedlander.
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Friedlander. Friedlander.
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Sorry, who's the president of Nava,
by the way?
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And just an all around
amazing person.
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And just thinking of a musician,
I am.
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I'm thinking of the wetlands. Yeah.
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So, if
you could actually get some kind of,
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like, a fingerprint of your voice
that did it.
00:13:00
We have actually partnered
with a group
00:13:03
that has created
one of the most robust
00:13:05
watermarking, tracing, tracking
technologies that we've seen.
00:13:08
And we've evaluated a lot.
00:13:10
But we found this company out of,
00:13:13
a group of graduate students
out of USC that have created this
00:13:16
really incredible watermarking
technology that is, lossless.
00:13:21
It's it's, it's a visual token on
00:13:25
an audio or visual,
you know, video, thing.
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It's label. So you can have it.
00:13:30
If I record from home,
I can put a token on it from home.
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And then you send it
to the production studio,
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they can watermark it
there. It's got a different token.
00:13:37
Go to your distribution
partners. It's got a different token.
00:13:39
So you can see where any leaks
may happen.
00:13:40
And also
00:13:42
if it does end up on a non authorized
non sanctioned like YouTube page
00:13:46
number one it will call home.
And so they
00:13:49
we can see when it's being
unauthorized and used elsewhere.
00:13:52
But the metadata
that's included in the watermark
00:13:56
will point
anybody who clicks on that original
00:13:58
or that YouTube link,
that unauthorized YouTube link
00:14:01
will point them
back to the original data owner.
00:14:03
So it actually generates
more sales for people.
00:14:06
If it's put up on a, on
an unauthorized YouTube page,
00:14:08
which is super, super cool,
00:14:10
and it's also looking at data
poisoning technology that can,
00:14:13
basically function like nightshade
for, visual art, where
00:14:18
if you have
this technology on your visual art
00:14:21
and somebody tries to upload it
through glaze or whatever,
00:14:23
it will corrupt the file
and give you a useless piece of art.
00:14:26
And so we've been talking
with other companies
00:14:28
that are creating a data
poisoning software
00:14:31
that will do the same thing
to your voice going through 11.
00:14:33
So if they try to upload your voice
00:14:34
through 11,
it will garble it and make it. Wow.
00:14:36
Yeah.
00:14:36
1111 is the biggest interesting here
isn't it?
00:14:39
Like, well, I mean there's
a lot of different companies.
00:14:42
11 is the 800 pound gorilla for sure,
because they have the most money
00:14:45
and they have, you
know, venture capital backing.
00:14:49
And they've been around, you know,
to be fair, they're not illegal.
00:14:51
They're not doing anything
illegally yet.
00:14:53
So yeah, it's. Yeah.
00:14:55
And for the uninitiated like me, 1111
labs is a voice, voice AI platform.
00:15:00
Okay.
00:15:01
It's probably the most prolific
at this point.
00:15:03
And they charge ten bucks a month
and you can have access
00:15:06
to thousands of voices
in their marketplace.
00:15:08
That's them calling.
00:15:08
They're threatening a lawsuit
because we're talking about them.
00:15:11
Sorry. And they are extraordinary.
00:15:13
I do like they, they
they have really, you know,
00:15:16
gotten some great technology
and they, they have offered a service
00:15:19
to people who needed it at the time.
00:15:22
What we're trying to do is say, hey,
there's a whole lot of people who,
00:15:26
you know, who want to use something
different because,
00:15:30
privacy is mandatory
or they just feel uncomfortable
00:15:34
being in this kind of general
marketplace environment.
00:15:36
They want a more B2B environment
or the training data.
00:15:40
They want to be secured.
00:15:42
And, Andrew Peters
gave me the finger in the best way.
00:15:45
Oh, Andrew.
00:15:46
Yeah, I do, I just, you know,
I decided just to for Robert
00:15:48
because you do know 11 labs.
00:15:49
Robert I well I know them
as soon as you said 11 labs.
00:15:52
But I was sitting here going,
what the fuck's 11.
00:15:54
Yeah.
00:15:54
Because of the whole scandal
in Australia at the moment
00:15:56
is there's a radio station using it.
00:15:58
I just it has nothing to do with
Spinal Tap 11.
00:16:01
Yeah. That scandal is outrageous,
by the way.
00:16:03
But exactly.
00:16:04
That's the point
00:16:05
is that we're all about, you know,
we don't want to be the marketplace.
00:16:08
We don't want to be.
Come and find voices.
00:16:10
And you can make these voices
say whatever they want.
00:16:13
The actors
that that have already signed with us
00:16:17
to be digital replicas or any company
00:16:19
that comes to us who says
we want to work with these people or,
00:16:23
you know, find us some people,
whatever our our whole point
00:16:26
is to try and help with onboarding
through agents and actors.
00:16:29
But every actor,
00:16:31
whilst they may not be able
to approve the script due to privacy
00:16:34
or whatever secrecy IP protection,
00:16:37
they will be able
to approve the general content.
00:16:40
So it will be the actor saying yay
or nay
00:16:44
rather than the tech platform going
ahead and saying we're fine with it.
00:16:48
Because again, we're all about
we want it to be about AI
00:16:52
complementing.
00:16:53
Yes, the human voice actors work,
not about replacing it,
00:16:57
so we don't want to offer it
to everyone
00:16:59
because we want to make sure
that the companies we work with
00:17:01
are companies that are looking
to complement the actors experience,
00:17:05
as opposed to just do a quick, dirty
fix and rock the AI in.
00:17:08
And thanks very much.
00:17:09
Give me ten bucks and go, can I can
I ask you a quick question?
00:17:11
If you if you
we look forward from here,
00:17:13
let's look forward say another five
years even right by go back
00:17:20
25 years.
00:17:22
Right. Pretty much.
00:17:23
And my we're all working at macaroni.
00:17:25
Yeah. We're all what? Mac OS?
I wasn't born then. Sorry.
00:17:28
My my best mates.
00:17:29
Old man was the chairman
of the board of a company
00:17:31
that was one of the first developers
in voice recognition.
00:17:35
Right.
00:17:35
He was the chairman of a company
in the UK that basically pioneered
00:17:38
that stuff. Awesome.
00:17:40
And I remember being on a car ride
with Roy, who was my mates dad,
00:17:44
and we were talking about voiceover
and all these stuff, and he said,
00:17:47
we were talking about
how voiceover works.
00:17:48
And he said, there will come a day
where a voiceover artist
00:17:52
won't be selling them,
going into a studio
00:17:56
to do a session,
they will be selling.
00:17:59
And back in those days
he said CD right, but they will be
00:18:02
selling a file of their voice
to someone to use for the purpose.
00:18:07
That's been described.
00:18:08
Very Nostradamus of his. Fascinating.
00:18:10
So that's how long this stuff's been
in the pipeline, is my point, right?
00:18:13
That means the CIA has had it.
00:18:15
For how long?
00:18:16
Yeah, yeah, that's my point though.
00:18:18
They were talking about these
like at the time they would the time
00:18:21
they were developing new stuff
they're actually talking about.
00:18:23
Okay, how do we do this.
00:18:25
Well, and I would say even more stark
is this when I first
00:18:29
really started paying attention
to this in 2020, it took about
00:18:34
7 to 10
00:18:35
hours of solid recording to get
a really good replica of a person.
00:18:38
And you can do it one shot.
00:18:39
And then in the beginning of,
00:18:41
I was going to say at the beginning
of 2022, took about six hours,
00:18:44
2024 took maybe an hour.
00:18:48
And today you can literally do
what's called a zero shot for 3 to 5.
00:18:52
I'll say something
about the zero shot.
00:18:54
I think the zero shot
relies on insane
00:18:57
amounts of previously collected
data on everybody else's voice
00:19:00
from before
to understand the entire process.
00:19:05
And so all of that is still based
on theft
00:19:08
of everybody, because they've gone
and sampled the whole world.
00:19:11
It's the same way that
00:19:12
GTP could never have learned
and figured out everything
00:19:17
without having the whole internet
to suck up.
00:19:20
And, they've collected so many voices
now that they can do a one shot.
00:19:25
You know that that is based
on having insane amounts of data,
00:19:30
essentially the
and that goes back to what we're,
00:19:32
you know,
I mean, all voice platforms.
00:19:35
I mean, you know,
you can't build a house on, a swamp
00:19:40
unless you kind of bring
00:19:41
in the materials to support it,
but you have to live in another house
00:19:45
until you can build the proper,
strong foundation.
00:19:49
So I think, you know, the, the,
the craziness of zero shot
00:19:53
is incredibly valuable to audio,
audio production houses, etc..
00:19:57
So along the way of of getting there,
if we can create the foundation
00:20:01
that it's not stolen voices,
but it's voices
00:20:04
that who have signed a contract,
who get a licensing fee
00:20:08
when that foundational model
is, is sold and licensed,
00:20:12
then those actors have contributed
and are getting paid.
00:20:16
And it's not scraped,
it's not stolen, it's not theft.
00:20:19
But until we build it,
we have to live next door.
00:20:21
Years and years ago,
I went to a meeting with the AA,
00:20:25
which is the Australian Union
for actors,
00:20:28
and they were talking about,
00:20:31
kind of the way residuals work,
which we don't have here necessarily.
00:20:34
We have rollovers
and stuff like that,
00:20:36
but it was all about like basically
the amount of times an ad gets
00:20:40
played, you get paid for it.
00:20:43
And I said to them,
well, we have a system here already
00:20:45
with the music industry,
which is APRA,
00:20:48
where
because everything was computerized
00:20:49
and radio,
every time a song gets played,
00:20:51
it actually goes into a database
00:20:53
and people know
00:20:53
what songs being played and
they get their cut of their royalty.
00:20:57
I said, why don't you do a number
with the same system
00:21:01
which has all the all the information
in the key number,
00:21:04
including the talent.
00:21:05
So every time it gets played,
you get money.
00:21:08
Like if you do a deal where you go,
okay, for three months only
00:21:12
they could play that 10 times in
three months, or you do a 12 months.
00:21:15
It could get played 500 times.
00:21:17
So the whole thing
about the duration of the usage of
00:21:21
that ad is irrelevant.
00:21:23
When you look at
how many times it gets played.
00:21:25
But talking of that system,
that's the kind of idea we need
00:21:28
for our voices.
00:21:29
So we have a key number
in everything that goes out with us.
00:21:34
Our information
inside that key number,
00:21:36
which is basically what you were
talking about before. But
00:21:39
I thought I try
00:21:40
and yeah, I by the way, I got
I got Pooh poohed about that.
00:21:43
We have the MPAA. Yes.
00:21:46
Is Nava
the MPAA is the voiceover industry?
00:21:50
No. Nava is an advocacy group.
00:21:53
So Nava is not a union.
00:21:55
Nava is not trying to track residuals
00:21:57
or any of that stuff because that's
a whole other set work.
00:22:00
But, but I mean, what's going to be
the equivalent of the MPAA
00:22:03
and the RIAA for voiceover?
00:22:05
Someone's
going to have to step up and do it.
00:22:06
I mean, we are trying to get to
who who's
00:22:08
who's motivated, who's motivated
to do, who has the time and the money
00:22:12
and who wants to paint a target
on their boards.
00:22:15
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
00:22:17
I mean,
00:22:17
I mean, how much how much of
this is SAG and they after
00:22:20
it is like sitting back
and being reactionary instead of,
00:22:24
on top of it actually.
00:22:26
Yeah,
there's a lot of really good things.
00:22:29
And I think SAG know, listen,
and I, I think SAG
00:22:33
could improve on a lot of things.
00:22:34
And I think voice over
is one of those things. Right.
00:22:36
We are often very overlooked.
00:22:39
In the greater sphere of things,
which is incredibly frustrating.
00:22:42
But, you know,
00:22:43
thanks to SAG, I have a pension
and I have health care.
00:22:47
Right.
00:22:48
So is it perfect? No,
it is certainly not.
00:22:50
But are we better than we would be
without it?
00:22:52
Yes, I believe so. Yeah.
00:22:53
I think it's
just the size of the contracts.
00:22:55
Like a record label can is raking in
ginormous sums of money.
00:22:59
Film industry
is raking in some sums of money, but
00:23:02
voice actors can be or not.
00:23:05
Yeah. Sorry. Game companies.
00:23:09
But the
00:23:09
actors themselves don't have that.
00:23:13
I don't know.
00:23:14
That's what's interesting.
00:23:15
Like recording artists have these,
00:23:17
have these copyright things
and all this stuff that protects
00:23:20
them, mechanical licenses
and all these things for voice
00:23:22
actors just never have had that.
00:23:24
But also, like, a recording artist
doesn't actually make money
00:23:27
until they go on tour, right? Well,
now they don't.
00:23:29
They used to. That's true now. Yeah.
00:23:30
That's used to make a lot of money
before. Yeah.
00:23:32
We also used to make a lot of money
on a nationwide union commercial.
00:23:36
Right, right.
00:23:36
And those have gone the way the dodo.
00:23:37
So like,
00:23:39
is there room for improvement
all around?
00:23:41
Yes, absolutely.
00:23:42
Which is again,
why we have to figure out
00:23:45
how to put a stake in the ground
and say this, not that this.
00:23:50
And I
00:23:50
and I think,
00:23:51
I think one of the things to realize
00:23:52
is that there's always going to be
the Wild West.
00:23:54
There's going to be technology
companies from whatever country
00:23:58
that are going to be like,
00:23:59
we don't care about the rules and
and go sign up and go clone a voice.
00:24:03
But as long as the sort of
00:24:06
whatever, like rules based like
if you want to be a legit company
00:24:10
in the US, in Europe, etc.,
selling product, making product,
00:24:14
having a decent name,
00:24:16
then you're going to play
by these rules
00:24:17
and you're not going to steal voices.
00:24:18
And then if you want to have like
some small time YouTube channel, that
00:24:22
or even YouTube shouldn't
allow any of it to be trafficked
00:24:25
within it. But,
00:24:27
you know, you can't put
all the toothpaste back in the tube,
00:24:30
but I feel like you can get people
to voluntarily
00:24:33
take their little bit of toothpaste
and put it back in the tube
00:24:36
until there's
a significant amount of it. I've.
00:24:38
I've tried that, Robert,
and I've actually managed
00:24:40
to get most of the toothpaste
back in the tube
00:24:42
to squeeze all the air out
and then suck it back in.
00:24:44
Yeah, yeah. Did you did
you use it first?
00:24:47
Did you brush your teeth
and then somehow like,
00:24:50
wow, absolutely.
00:24:51
Waste
not want not recycling, man. Come on.
00:24:54
Well it's
clearly going to be a carrot and or
00:24:56
and a stick kind of approach
to this thing change.
00:25:01
It's going to be some of both.
00:25:03
I don't know
if anybody in the voiceover world
00:25:05
has a big enough stick.
00:25:06
But you know, there's
a lot of carrots out there.
00:25:09
I think one of the other things
that it's not just the actors,
00:25:13
it is everything that revolves around
the actors.
00:25:16
There's entire scopes of layers
of industry and peeling the onion.
00:25:21
And this is what I do.
00:25:22
I have a terrible voice,
but I edit a lot of voice.
00:25:26
You know, like there's a
00:25:28
whole bunch of jobs that this
it affects directly in a big way.
00:25:32
I kind of feel like the way forward
here is to, to sort of
00:25:35
not just focus on voice voice actors,
because as I was kind of trying
00:25:38
to allude to before, I mean, Jocko
Willock's willingness, right?
00:25:42
One of the hottest podcasts
in the world.
00:25:44
How much money could a company
00:25:45
make by eyeing his voice and using it
wherever?
00:25:48
If he's got no right over it
00:25:50
and all that sort of stuff,
the guy's got millions of followers.
00:25:53
Yeah, well, I'm probably giving away
giving away the sacred C, right?
00:25:56
But I mean,
and this is kind of where I wonder
00:25:58
whether rather than, than voice
trying to do their own thing,
00:26:03
whether everybody who's got a stake
here should come together.
00:26:06
I know there's no podcast as a union
and that's not a clear way forward,
00:26:09
but surely if you got there would be
a great way to get critical mass?
00:26:12
Absolutely.
00:26:13
You know, if everyone is calling
their their congressmen saying, hey,
00:26:16
I don't want my grandmother
calling me or me or who I don't know
00:26:20
who, calling my grandmother
and telling you that I've been.
00:26:22
That's one of the reasons
why with our technology, we
00:26:25
we absolutely must have watermarking
00:26:28
right wi and trace tracing, tracking
and hopefully soon poison pill.
00:26:32
But that's exactly the reason is
because there's too much at stake
00:26:36
for too many people.
00:26:39
Right.
00:26:40
Yeah.
00:26:40
For Tracy in the audience
can you explain to her
00:26:42
what poison polling is.
00:26:43
Yeah. So, hi, Tracy.
00:26:46
Hi, Tracy. Let's tell you something.
00:26:48
I thought you said for tracing.
00:26:49
Should I tell you,
poison pill is basically to,
00:26:53
put some code
in our watermark technology
00:26:56
that would corrupt a file off
if someone tries to upload it
00:27:00
to an AI voice platform and generate
a new voice with our audio.
00:27:04
Right.
00:27:04
So if we could put in a watermark
from home that says, this is mine,
00:27:08
I own it, this is where it's going,
please don't post it online.
00:27:12
If it shows up on YouTube, we,
00:27:14
you know, it
pops up on our tracing tracking site.
00:27:17
And then if somebody tries
to take that audio
00:27:19
and upload it to 11
without your consent,
00:27:21
it would corrupt the file
and spit out an unusable audio.
00:27:25
Thank you.
00:27:26
So just just curious.
00:27:28
But you pass that through an analog
pass and poison pill is gone.
00:27:32
Supposedly it stays.
00:27:34
I mean, that
00:27:35
that is one of the things
that we have been working on
00:27:37
a lot
is making sure the watermark stays.
00:27:39
Now, the poison pill
could be different.
00:27:42
That's a separate technology
and one that's going to be
00:27:44
a bit more in-depth,
but the watermark stays.
00:27:48
This is like you're saying, because
you're thinking of it like Hdcp.
00:27:51
Robert.
00:27:51
Yeah, I mean,
00:27:52
I mean, any of those things like rely
on somewhat of a faithful transfer.
00:27:56
So there's always a way to transfer
it unfaithfully enough
00:27:59
but good enough to strip it
of whatever protection
00:28:02
that's been going on
since the days of scams.
00:28:05
The cat tapes in the CDs,
00:28:07
you know,
00:28:08
the logical way of stripping it,
00:28:09
the logical way
of doing it is the run that
00:28:12
we should be giving this away.
00:28:14
But I would imagine
you run it through analog to.
00:28:17
That's that's what I just said.
00:28:18
You know,
00:28:18
you just do a tape to an analog
device and you probably will strip.
00:28:22
Yeah, but a whole bunch
00:28:23
if we have to, we have to have
some element of relying
00:28:26
on the goodwill of people
because not everyone's an enemy
00:28:29
not allowed to kill people,
but people still kill people.
00:28:32
So that's one of the things
00:28:33
if you want to find a way to be to do
it, you can, sorry, roll back
00:28:37
even banks, a fortress
that was going to give made my point.
00:28:40
I mean, you know, there's
you can only do so much, right?
00:28:43
But at least you're doing something.
Yeah.
00:28:44
And we've got it to the point
where the mastering it'll, it'll
00:28:48
it lasts through,
00:28:50
a ton of mastering, kind
00:28:52
of, you know, reverb, compression,
ripping it apart.
00:28:56
It's like got very, very short
gaps through.
00:28:58
So you could really literally
00:28:59
just take two seconds of it,
drop it into something else,
00:29:02
master it, put music on it,
pull it somewhere else,
00:29:05
and it'll follow it
all the way around.
00:29:07
So it's been there any sort of,
00:29:08
anything that I have to do
as an engineer to make that happen?
00:29:13
Or does that happen
the moment you put that on?
00:29:15
Well, actually. Okay, how about this?
00:29:16
How about you come in to the studio
and I'm recording you?
00:29:21
What is
is there a legal obligation on me
00:29:24
to put that watermark on there,
or how does that work?
00:29:26
It's it's like a thing
that she puts on her tooth.
00:29:29
And then when she speaks,
it all comes out in code.
00:29:32
It's just,
00:29:33
I'm sorry, James Bond,
but but it makes a little bit
00:29:36
of everything that's the problem.
00:29:37
It's it's it's like having a dog
in the back of your throat.
00:29:41
Yeah. No, I'm just interested in.
00:29:42
How does that end where currently
there's no law, right.
00:29:45
Currently it's a it's a handshake.
00:29:46
No, but how do you see it though.
How do you how do we say.
00:29:49
Well, I would just say it.
00:29:51
Listen, I would love
00:29:52
to have it in the hands of everybody
so that I'm recording from home.
00:29:55
I watermark all of my stuff.
That leaves here.
00:29:58
You know,
you get it at your production studio,
00:29:59
you send a different watermark
00:30:01
on a different layer
and send it off to whomever. Right?
00:30:03
I would love to see that.
00:30:06
And I would love for that to be,
you know,
00:30:08
kind of the quote
unquote gentleman's handshake
00:30:10
of the industry of like,
hey, you like to work?
00:30:12
I like to work. Oh my God,
do you like money? I like money.
00:30:15
Let's do this together
and make sure that we don't,
00:30:17
you know, kill our industry.
00:30:19
For ease of uploading your voice
to 11.
00:30:21
Right.
00:30:23
The other day,
I saw my first ad on Facebook saying,
00:30:25
take the stress out of mixing.
00:30:27
And it was, you know,
I do your mixing for you.
00:30:30
So, you know, it's like,
take yourself out of a job.
00:30:32
I was at Blackmagic booth at NAB,
you just bring in your,
00:30:37
DaVinci resolve project, you bring
the audio into into Fairlight
00:30:42
and you say Fairlight.
00:30:43
Just mix it, please.
00:30:45
In about three minutes later,
the video is mixed well,
00:30:49
so obviously they don't want
any audio engineers as their clients.
00:30:54
Black magic is video.
00:30:55
I mean,
I mean, no one's using Fairlight
00:30:56
to mix their audio anyways,
so I guess that goes to video
00:30:59
people are using.
00:31:00
The whole point is the video
people will not need to use as many
00:31:03
audio books.
00:31:04
Yeah, I guess that's like yeah,
yeah, yeah.
00:31:07
But what what we're finding though
00:31:08
is, is exactly that,
that people are coming to us
00:31:12
because we don't like, I think
at heart, the majority of people,
00:31:15
or at least the majority,
everyone that's coming to us
00:31:18
is because they don't
want to just give into the system.
00:31:22
And yes, these technologies
are amazing at the moment
00:31:25
because they have all this money
and investor money behind it,
00:31:29
but they're coming to us
because we're offering them
00:31:31
something that
these other companies don't.
00:31:33
And I think the more, you know,
not that I'm inviting competition,
00:31:37
but the whole point is
make this better for the industry,
00:31:40
protect voice actors, protect
audio engineers, protect the,
00:31:44
you know, agents.
00:31:45
And I mean, we when we started,
we were even kind of going,
00:31:48
oh, we should come up with like the
contracts for the actors and decide
00:31:52
how much money are you going
to get paid for your AI thing?
00:31:54
And we were like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
hang on a second.
00:31:57
There are agents that already do that
that are superb at doing it.
00:32:01
And then talking to our agent,
she was like, hey, you know,
00:32:04
and we all kind of said, well,
what about if it's like,
00:32:07
you know, in a year's time
or even now, really, to be fair,
00:32:10
but as the agents, they look after
00:32:13
the human being Larisa actor
that goes out and does whatever or
00:32:17
and sorry
the digital replica Larissa actor
00:32:21
and then you can put the two together
for certain jobs.
00:32:24
So if Larissa
is doing a Toyota campaign
00:32:27
because I'm amazing is you know that,
then she can
00:32:30
she can say that to, you know,
the Toyota production house.
00:32:33
Well, you know, would you like her
to do your internal messaging
00:32:37
so you keep a brand consistent voice
so you have a human being,
00:32:40
voice working
00:32:41
and you have the complimentary
digital replica
00:32:45
or, you know, a system
that keeps the industry
00:32:48
the same industry where people
can still keep their jobs
00:32:51
and still be creative beings,
but it gives a lift
00:32:55
and a support to an area
that is in some places.
00:32:59
I mean, it can do it better, faster,
00:33:01
but is as long as it's
also also doing it authentically.
00:33:05
That's what we care about
as long as people are getting paid
00:33:07
when it happens
from everyone down the chain.
00:33:12
Then that I think that's that's
what we're striving for.
00:33:14
I was going to say how
how are the agents?
00:33:16
Amazing, amazing.
00:33:18
It's been amazing because it really
is, you know, our job, the way we see
00:33:24
this is our job is to augment
their ability to make money.
00:33:29
Right.
00:33:29
So I see a future where agents
have an animation department,
00:33:33
a commercial department,
a trailer department
00:33:35
and a digital replica
department. Right.
00:33:38
So we make, audio demos of the talent
that record with us and send it to
00:33:43
their agent so their agent can use it
as a marketing tool.
00:33:47
And they've been amazing.
00:33:48
We've spoken
with every agency in town,
00:33:50
and several agencies
around the globe.
00:33:51
And again,
the fact that we're actually coming
00:33:54
to them as people in the industry
not going like, yeah,
00:33:57
we made some tech, bro, like,
we actually want to work with you.
00:34:01
Let's
we are going to protect your actors.
00:34:04
We are not going to add
00:34:05
their information to training data
unless they have a separate contract
00:34:08
that says, yes,
I would like to be added to your
00:34:11
training data
for an additional fee. Right.
00:34:14
We're
not opening this up as a marketplace.
00:34:17
The people that contract with us
00:34:18
have very specific access
to very specific models.
00:34:21
It's not just a free for all.
00:34:22
So agents feel comfortable with us
because we actually give a damn,
00:34:26
you know,
the biggest winner out of this?
00:34:28
If this if this flies
the way you want it to fly,
00:34:30
the biggest winner
is going to be the agents.
00:34:33
Because without this, they're gone.
00:34:35
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:36
Can can
can I come back to to one question
00:34:39
I started asking before,
but we never got to the end of this.
00:34:42
Before you go,
if we get to this nirvana where,
00:34:46
all the boxes it takes
in, everybody's aligned and voice
00:34:49
actors are selling their samples
to go off
00:34:51
and have commercials
made out of them and stuff.
00:34:54
What does that do to
the craft of voice acting in general?
00:34:57
Listen, I don't think main characters
are going to be replaced
00:35:01
anytime soon, right?
00:35:02
I think there
will always be a place for,
00:35:06
you know, the Courtney
00:35:06
Taylors and the, you know, Nolan
00:35:10
North's to come in and bring life
to a character beautifully.
00:35:14
I think there is going
to be some hardship
00:35:17
in different parts of the industry,
and it's hard to see it coming
00:35:20
and know that there's very little
any of us can do to stop it.
00:35:24
That scares me. A lot.
00:35:26
And entry level jobs
I'm worried about. Right.
00:35:28
So again, like our
our whole vision has been to
00:35:31
not replace people but to give them
additional sources of income.
00:35:35
So we've actually turned away
a ton of companies
00:35:37
that just want to come in and start
replacing people willy nilly.
00:35:40
And we really want to make sure that
that is not the path that we take.
00:35:44
There are others
who don't care. Right.
00:35:46
And they will take those jobs.
00:35:48
Other
AI platforms will take those jobs.
00:35:51
And that's very difficult
to know that it's coming.
00:35:53
I think the industry will shrink.
00:35:55
I think the people who are able
to make a living doing this
00:35:59
will become a smaller circle.
00:36:01
I think
it's going to be a really tough
00:36:04
couple of years until the pendulum
kind of shifts back.
00:36:07
I liken it to this around 2000,
00:36:10
if you'll recall, 3D generation 3D
00:36:13
graphics came out and suddenly
everything looked like Shrek, right?
00:36:16
It was like this big, bulbous her
dick.
00:36:18
Negative already
walking around, right.
00:36:20
And everything looked like that.
00:36:21
And it was ugly, right.
00:36:23
And it was really kitschy
for a minute. It was kind of neat.
00:36:26
And then it was like,
oh God, this all looks the same.
00:36:28
And people started complaining,
right?
00:36:30
Like, oh,
it's already that way with AI voices.
00:36:32
And I think the only thing
that's even better
00:36:34
is if I starts feeding on itself
00:36:36
and starts
getting worse and worse and worse.
00:36:37
So now we have more 2D animation,
main characters, and 3D animation
00:36:41
background, right?
00:36:42
I can see the same thing happening
00:36:44
with AI,
because a lot of the companies
00:36:46
that we've spoken to have been like,
look, man,
00:36:48
I don't know, my boss just told me
I got to implement.
00:36:50
I don't know how,
I don't know why, but I got to do it.
00:36:53
Even if it's more expensive
than hiring a human.
00:36:55
I got to fit AI in here somehow.
00:36:58
So there's this massive
pendulum swing
00:36:59
because it's the buzzword
and everybody's
00:37:01
hair is on fire to get AI going
and make it the thing.
00:37:04
And there's a backlash.
00:37:06
Games right now
are very cautious about using AI.
00:37:09
Any of the major game
studios are like,
00:37:12
I'm not going to ship
anything with AI.
00:37:14
I don't want to upset my fans.
00:37:15
Great. That's great for actors.
00:37:18
And so I think there is a place
that that it will work.
00:37:21
And there is a place
that it will even help.
00:37:24
Can I add two things?
00:37:25
Yeah.
00:37:25
One is like what we are hearing a lot
is that all of you, all who,
00:37:30
audio production
people are all creatives as well.
00:37:33
And creatives
want to work with creatives.
00:37:36
So the kind of that
that synergy together will always say
00:37:40
that's what all other game companies
are doing as it's like, you know,
00:37:43
we may use it for scratch or for R&D
and to speed up the process.
00:37:47
Or maybe in commercials,
we might do it
00:37:50
so that we can get a feel and hear
how the commercial sounds.
00:37:53
But we want to go to the actor
00:37:54
for the real thing,
because we understand that,
00:37:58
that that kind of magic
00:37:59
that comes out of a human being,
the soul that comes out of
00:38:02
the human being.
00:38:03
What is it I doesn't have
trauma is kind of the catch phrase
00:38:06
is that that's
where the magic happens.
00:38:08
And that there have been studies
specifically, SiriusXM
00:38:12
did an extraordinary study
where they were playing like,
00:38:16
polling a whole lot of people,
00:38:17
playing them, AI, playing
them, human beings, blah, blah, blah.
00:38:20
What they discovered
is that 100% across the board,
00:38:24
if I was trying to sell them
00:38:27
magic or persuade them
or anything with them,
00:38:30
you know, bring passion or emotion,
anything with emotion, terrible.
00:38:35
People hated it, don't want it.
They could pick it.
00:38:37
They didn't like it.
00:38:38
Even if they didn't know if it was,
they just didn't like the thing.
00:38:41
Now, if I was giving them a list
of car parts, if I was giving them
00:38:46
these are the features of the hotel
all about it.
00:38:48
If I saying come to our beautiful
hotel, don't want to hear it.
00:38:52
So there is.
00:38:53
I think human beings
do recognize the difference
00:38:56
will that change in 20 years time
when this generation comes up?
00:39:00
Having heard it so much,
I don't know.
00:39:01
I'm not a fortune teller,
but I do think there really is hope
00:39:05
because creative artists
want to be artists.
00:39:08
I think there's another aspect to it.
00:39:10
Also, if you're a creative
leaning on AI technology,
00:39:15
what you use will eventually come
right back around and hit you.
00:39:19
And if you're a writer
using an AI voice,
00:39:22
you're
the next one to be replaced as well.
00:39:25
And I think that in the back
of everyone's head,
00:39:26
they know that it's called
mutually assured destruction.
00:39:29
Robert.
00:39:29
Yeah I yeah I have a friend
who is doing an ADR session
00:39:34
and they couldn't
get the actor to do it properly
00:39:37
and they ended up,
00:39:39
you know, at the end of the session
at the end of the hour with
00:39:41
and this is good enough
and you know half hour hour later my,
00:39:45
my buddy who's an engineer emails
the director back and says like, hey,
00:39:48
I've got something
that I think you're going to like.
00:39:52
It solves the problem.
00:39:53
I don't think you're going
to want to know how I did it.
00:39:55
And the director said,
I don't even want to hear it.
00:39:57
Don't I don't want to like it.
00:39:58
I don't, I just
I want nothing to do with it.
00:40:01
And that was that, and that was cool.
00:40:03
It's like, I just
00:40:04
rather have an organic production
and not have any of this junk in it.
00:40:07
And that way, you know,
we're all in it together and,
00:40:11
so what are our listeners
supposed to do now?
00:40:14
Join us.
00:40:15
Action item.
00:40:15
Where do they go reclaim. Number one.
00:40:18
Number one, if you are a voice actor,
please join Nava.
00:40:22
It's nava voices.org.
00:40:24
They are doing the Lord's work.
00:40:26
They're out there every day.
00:40:27
Yeah.
00:40:28
Lava India or Ava or Kava or,
you know,
00:40:31
look at the association of voice
actors in whatever area you live in.
00:40:35
They are the best of us.
00:40:37
Truly doing incredible.
00:40:39
We're truly doing incredible work.
00:40:40
Also, Nava and I'm sure all that
and karma and all of the other
00:40:44
all of us have it on their website
for free right now.
00:40:47
An AI writer
that you can attach to any contract.
00:40:50
It is free for anybody
under the sun to put on any contract
00:40:54
that you work on that says, you know,
you don't have the right
00:40:56
to take my, recordings
to generate an AI voice.
00:40:59
So that is for free right now.
00:41:01
At Nava voices.org,
I believe on there I subpage.
00:41:06
So that's number one.
00:41:06
Number two,
if you want to hear more about what
00:41:08
we're doing, you can come to Ethio
Voxer I that's eta voxer.
00:41:13
I, we have a sign up where you can
just, you know, get our newsletters
00:41:18
when we have five minutes
to put them together,
00:41:21
which is not as often
as I would like.
00:41:23
You should just have I do that?
00:41:25
Hey, I will make wonderful
newsletters.
00:41:27
Yeah.
00:41:28
No, because we're humans.
00:41:29
We want the humans to answer.
I mean, I know it's easier, but.
00:41:32
But there is a real, real value
to that. Sorry.
00:41:35
I would also say legitimately,
and I know
00:41:37
this feels like lip service,
but it's not.
00:41:39
If you live in a country,
00:41:43
learn what
00:41:44
laws are going through your system
and how you can be involved.
00:41:47
If it means you live in the States
00:41:49
and you're calling your reps,
call your reps.
00:41:51
I don't know what the process is
in Australia, but, get involved.
00:41:54
I mean, they they need to know
that this matters, right?
00:41:57
They need to know that,
00:41:58
it's not just the rich and famous
that are losing their voices.
00:42:00
It's literally all of us.
00:42:03
I think those are my.
00:42:04
Those are my big three risks.
You got any others?
00:42:06
No, I think that's it.
00:42:07
Like, just,
you know, just just be very reached.
00:42:10
Contracts read, read.
00:42:11
Your contract is almighty production
houses read your contracts
00:42:15
for the fight. The fine.
00:42:18
What is the fine? Teeny tiny language
at the bottom of that thing.
00:42:20
Thank you. Fine print. Thank you.
00:42:22
And of all of those contracts
about training data
00:42:24
and what you were submitting to
when you want to get your quick
00:42:27
little pick up from zero shot
or whatever, can be really helpful
00:42:30
if you're in the studio late at night
00:42:32
doing that,
but you are giving your actor's
00:42:33
voice away and you were giving
your studios IP away.
00:42:36
So read your contract.
00:42:38
Please just have a conversation
with us, not us.
00:42:41
I have a conversation
with your actors.
00:42:43
Like I'm sure an actor would rather
just do like a five minute
00:42:46
pickup than have their stuff uploaded
to a site without their knowledge.
00:42:49
Please don't do that. Absolutely.
Please don't do that.
00:42:51
Yeah, I think that's a huge thing.
00:42:53
If you're a writer, if
you're an editor, if you're anybody,
00:42:57
you got to realize that
you do not have the right to upload
00:43:00
any willy
nilly audio file into these systems.
00:43:03
These systems are currently,
I think, pariahs.
00:43:06
Yeah.
00:43:07
And the other thing, one on the on
the closing note,
00:43:09
I cannot replicate the imperfections
of the human.
00:43:14
That's right.
00:43:14
I mean, how would it possibly do
Ted Kennedy's voice?
00:43:17
I call that on that note.
00:43:20
What we should say.
00:43:21
Thank you, Clarissa, for being here.
00:43:23
But where they really.
00:43:25
Oh, I don't know how
that's done to dum dum dum dum.
00:43:30
Well, that was fun.
00:43:31
Is it over the audio? Sweet.
00:43:34
Thanks to try and Austrian
audio recorded using Source Connect,
00:43:39
edited by Andrew Peaches
and mixed by the others.
00:43:42
Got your own audio issues?
00:43:43
Just ask Robert.
00:43:44
Don't call him tech support
for George the tech wisdom.
00:43:47
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00:43:50
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00:43:52
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00:43:56
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