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And welcome to another pro audio suite.
00:00:01
Thanks to try booth.
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Don't forget the code to try pip 200.
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That will get you $200 of your try booth
and Austrian
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audio making passion heard
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roll intro.
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I might not.
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Now I might just leave you hanging there.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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Let's go.
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Welcome. Hi. Hi. Hi.
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Hello, everyone.
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Audience. Audio.
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These guys are professional and motivated.
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Please text the real stars.
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George with a founder of Source elements,
Robert Marshall, international audio
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engineer Robin Roberts.
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And global voice Andrew Peters.
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Thanks to tribal Austrian audio, lighting,
passionate elements,
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George the tech wisdom and robo and APIs
international demos.
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Find out more about us.
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Check the Pro Audio Sweetcorn.
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Line up later. Here we go. Now. Good. Me?
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You. Now.
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Yeah, now.
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But before we get into the microphones,
just give us a bit of background.
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How did you, start
producing your own product?
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Oh, I'll keep it as short as possible.
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Like most people in the music industry,
I think I fell, bass backwards into it
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and have just been here ever since,
you know, loved music all my life
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was, you know, joined a band in junior
high with my friends, as one does.
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But also, I've been a tinkerer
all my life, taking apart everything
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electronic in the house,
much to the chagrin of my parents.
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Because not always did
I know how to put it back together.
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That's how you practice, right?
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So, those two things kind of joined
when I was in the band instead of,
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you know, like,
getting better at my instrument.
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The guitarist had these pedals
that did cool things, and I was like, oh,
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I wish I could do that with my bass.
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So, there weren't a lot of bass
pedals back then.
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So I ended up working, with,
just kind of learning
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how to modify guitar pedals for bass
frequencies.
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And then I went to school for music,
and I was like, oh, everybody here is
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better at this than I am.
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But I got into engineering.
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And then while I was doing that,
I was fixing people's gear
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and upgrading their gear and modifying
their guitars and things of that nature.
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And had to get an internship to get out
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of, school with a degree and didn't
want to scrub toilets in a studio.
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So I. Did that. Yeah.
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I mean, so did a lot of people in my,
in my graduating class,
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and I'm like, boy, I'm
glad I didn't have to be the coffee go.
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First thing you do is realize
you shouldn't be doing that event.
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Mean earlier you do that to better.
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I think that's illegal now.
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But back in the 90s,
that was all the rage.
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Just to make make all the.
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Yeah, they would you go to college
to clean the toilet?
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Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly. So.
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And let me pee all over it first
before you go.
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It's all just for a while. Like, yeah.
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It was on a great day.
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Like, I think studios have more disgusting
bathrooms and gas stations.
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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
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Yeah.
Especially depending on their clientele.
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Yes. You know, but I,
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I, ended up interning at a microphone
company,
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called Avante Electronics
when Kana Font owned it.
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He no longer does.
That's a whole other story.
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And, worked there for 4
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or 5 years as,
I don't know, it was a small company.
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We wore a lot of hats.
I don't think I had a title.
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I just did a lot of stuff. And,
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janitor, you know, chief cook and bottle
washer, all that.
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And so,
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the defecation hit the oscillation
at that particular company.
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And, I had to then make a decision, and
and I was, I was freelancing for a while
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doing studio, upgrades and installs
and fixing people's gear on the side.
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And then Ken called me.
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I was like, hey, I'd still like to start
another mic company.
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Do you want to start it with me?
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And so we started that.
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And can it, you know, obviously
taught me a lot about transducers
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and how, more about the microphone side
of things that I was previously aware of.
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And I've been doing this for 11
or 12 years now and just keep
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enjoying it for some reason, you know,
and, and it's my way to contribute
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to music and voice over
and all these other things.
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Because I wasn't
I was definitely not a great musician.
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I didn't want to put in the 16 hours
a day of wood
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chatting to catch up with my,
you know, my peers in college.
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And I was a good engineer
and I had a good ear, but there were a lot
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of people that did that, you know,
and this just sort of stuck with me.
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It it marries the mechanical
and the physical and the scientific
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with the subjective and the artistic and,
and why do we like the way that things
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sound and, and, you know, it's not
that part is actually kind
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of difficult to quantify.
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And there's argument about it, but,
it marries those two things.
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And that's ever evolving quest of
how do I make a tool
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that makes an artist's job more
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enjoyable and easier
and gives them more creative expression?
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And as long as I'm looking at mics that
way, I'm probably going to keep doing it.
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Yeah.
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Your journey sounds
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well, I shouldn't say,
but I'm thinking, Robert,
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you had a similar kind of journey,
didn't you?
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Really?
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Kind of a a what I was
I had an early experience
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where I was in a band, and I was,
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interning at a studio, in high school.
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And actually, that was by by the time
I was still at that studio
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in college, and the, I forget, I,
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I wasn't kicked out of the band,
but I wasn't in the band anymore.
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And I began getting the distinct feeling
that I was in bands because I had hook ups
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to get people recorded and,
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and, and at some point
the studio owner is just like,
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you know, maybe you're a better producer
than you are the musician part of it.
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Like, maybe that's your thing.
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And kind of got me to kind of embrace
that more instead of trying
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to be the lead guitarist or whatever
I was thinking I would be.
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So yeah, a little bit like.
Did you have long hair? Robert?
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I did in college.
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I thought.
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Wow. Yeah, I can, I can see it,
I can see, yeah, yeah.
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David Lee Roth style was that.
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No I wasn't, it wasn't filled up.
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It was more, more, more hippie like.
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Yeah. I was going to say
you would have been a page boy.
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You didn't look like a yacht rock
kind of dude from the 70s.
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Maybe. Yeah.
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It was just like a yobo.
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I reckon they had just.
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There's just a homeless guy. Yeah.
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Is the guest
allowed to ask a question of guys?
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Is there a reason why Robert is speaking
to us from the great beyond on video?
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Oh. We came back here.
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I want to go there
because I'm in heaven. Yes.
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Okay. Yeah. Is a. Nice.
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It. You don't want to.
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It's better down here or down
where you are. Yeah.
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He said he's he's at his dealers house
and he doesn't want him.
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That's, That makes sense.
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That's all cocaine back there? Yes.
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Oh, yeah.
You're on the side of low. Gotcha.
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I mean, that's what it is.
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Excuse me while I sneeze.
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Yeah.
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Thank God there's no wind in it.
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That was his name in the 80s.
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The cocaine back. That's right.
Yes. That's right.
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Yeah. So.
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So, Derek, tell us,
tell us a bit about your first ever Mike,
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I'm interested to know if you look back
now because I look back at my first demo
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and go, Holy crap,
how did that ever get me a job?
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How did that first Mike turn out?
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You know, it's funny
because Ken was very heavily
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involved in the design process early on
because he designed Mike's advent tone.
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I was very lucky in that,
you know, imagine if you if you go
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if you go to make your first record
and you know, you're your engineer
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and producer, you're at Abbey road
and you're producers, you know, you know,
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or Lenoir and you're
and and your engineers, Steve Generac
00:07:49
or Al Schmidt, like, it's
you're gonna have a better time. Right?
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So Ken was really good at this,
and and so,
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actually the v 13, that's not the one
I'm speaking into right now.
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I don't have a v 13
in my home office at the moment,
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but it's a two microphone,
a nine pattern, two microphone.
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And it, has been wildly successful.
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Actually, it's it's
consistently our best seller.
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And people love it because it punches way
above its weight class.
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They love it because it's versatile.
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We try to walk this subjective line
between, like,
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some mikes are the best
mic in the world on a particular voice,
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but only on that voice
because they're so heavily, heavily,
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heavily voiced and aggressively voiced,
which is great.
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And then some mics,
like the AKG 414 will work on everything.
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And if you record your entire record
with that, it's
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going to sound like vanilla cake
with mayonnaise frosting.
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So there's like this, there's this line
between like flattery and musicality
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and like a more objective,
like we want to capture or
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capture things as they are
that you have to constantly ride.
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And like the philosophy of different mic
designers will indicate where they ride
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that line. Right?
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So, people really like the V 13
because it rides that line pretty well.
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And quite frankly, you know, studios
today are in a basements and bedrooms
00:09:03
and garages or, you know, in, in business
parks, they're not their own
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massive built out things
with 60 mics for a vocal locker.
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So the mic that you choose to be
your main vocal mic,
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it has to be affordable enough.
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And then it also has to be versatile
enough
00:09:20
that you don't need to get eight other
mics that, that, that do something.
00:09:24
Maybe,
maybe that can be your main vocal mic
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and then you have a couple other ones
as backups and then,
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you know, but it ended up being great
for drum overheads and great on guitar
00:09:32
amps and great on acoustic guitars and
and great and voice over,
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apparently because Scott Rummel
was using one for a long time.
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So B13 is if I'm going to guess I'm
00:09:43
probably wrong here, but I guess is it
kind of a C 12 style a little bit?
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Actually, no.
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One thing that we're really proud of
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is that we don't really do,
clones of anything,
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and we're not really trying
to emulate anything.
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So, I mean, there's
so many people doing that so well.
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So I guess it doesn't look like
00:10:00
it has the classic grounding pin
in the middle of it, like I.
00:10:04
And it looks like it's terminated
on the outside.
00:10:06
Like it is just terminated a capsule.
00:10:08
Yeah, but it's not actually a c
k 12 capsule c k 12 from like the AKG, C12
00:10:14
like you talked about.
00:10:15
And they were also in the C 24, the 414,
a couple other of their mics,
00:10:18
the original brass ones are legendary
for how good they sound
00:10:22
and also legendary
for how difficult they are to manufacture.
00:10:25
The fact that AKG was able to pump out
any in like the 50s and 60s is a miracle,
00:10:29
because they're so complex.
00:10:31
It's this.
00:10:32
This has one chamber between the between
the two back plates.
00:10:35
The K 12 had four back
plates and three chambers,
00:10:40
and all of those affected
the sound along with this diaphragm
00:10:43
spacing, the diaphragm tension,
the way it was all drilled together,
00:10:46
the way those chambers aligned
with each other, it was it's a nightmare
00:10:49
to manufacture to this day,
and there's only a few people that do it.
00:10:52
So this mic has an actual K 12 style
capsule in it.
00:10:55
This is more like an edge terminated K 67,
but we do custom voice it
00:11:00
with a different, different diaphragm
spacers, different diaphragm tensioning,
00:11:04
things like that because we want it
to sound like our own mic.
00:11:06
So so the C 12
thing is more about the chambers
00:11:10
in there and less about where
it's terminated, I guess possibly.
00:11:13
Yeah, that the center termination
is a Neumann thing.
00:11:16
I would largely argue,
00:11:18
because there's really only
so many styles of capsule out there,
00:11:20
although there are companies coming out
with new and interesting
00:11:23
capsules like er, London,
Audio-Technica and stuff like that.
00:11:26
My lab has their rectangular ones or.
00:11:28
That's right, I forgot about my lab.
00:11:30
I should have,
I should have probably mentioned them
00:11:31
because I'm always interested in anybody
that's pushing the envelope. Right.
00:11:34
And Austrian audio
does their own capsule.
00:11:37
That is it's ceramic based,
which is genius because it gets rid of
00:11:41
some of the complications of manufacturing
and maintaining condenser capsules.
00:11:45
Yeah.
00:11:45
And it's supposedly, C12 it's a derivative
00:11:49
or they, I think what are they
called, the c k 12 or something.
00:11:52
Yeah. The K12. Yeah.
00:11:54
Yeah. Secret K 12. Isn't it secret.
00:11:57
Well yeah.
00:11:58
Well if anybody is doing it,
it's the guys that were originally at AKG.
00:12:01
And I know
00:12:03
and like a lot of the guys that Austrian
and talk to them on a regular basis
00:12:06
at Nam and stuff, they're good dudes
and they're really, really bright fellas.
00:12:09
So supposedly
warm does a 414 brass capsule.
00:12:13
Mike.
00:12:14
But incorrect I,
I was just leave it there.
00:12:18
Yeah.
00:12:18
I was wondering how accurate of a brass.
Yeah.
00:12:21
You know, what they do
is they mark it really well.
00:12:23
They do it you know. Yes I do.
00:12:25
It's funny because police
I do one the police I do the 414 but
00:12:29
is there's the c k 12
or is it a version of it.
00:12:34
According to John,
he just actually did a c k 12,
00:12:37
but before that it was an edge
terminated k six and seven.
00:12:40
Similar to this, I don't know.
00:12:41
I haven't seen the new k 12.
00:12:43
So the guys I know that are doing it
properly are been at business audio.
00:12:47
Open plan recording does one
and they're also Australian weirdly
00:12:50
although I don't really know
the guys there.
00:12:52
Yeah they're not far from me
actually. Two.
00:12:54
Yeah. They're okay.
00:12:56
An hour away from where I live.
00:12:58
I use the ones from Ben at Bee's knees.
00:13:00
Oh, I was going to ask.
00:13:01
I was going to ask
you make your own capsule because, like
00:13:03
because because I know that they,
distribute a lot of capsules, like,
00:13:06
that was kind of what he got into
even more than making his bikes was,
00:13:10
I'm in this manufacturer
and I'm in that manufacturer.
00:13:13
I imagine once you once you tool out to
make something like capsule, you make it.
00:13:17
On the DNC machine.
00:13:19
Well,
you want to sell a lot of frickin capsules
00:13:21
right at that point,
because it's not easy.
00:13:24
Ben is probably
the only guy that can master like Tim
00:13:28
Campbell makes great sequels,
and almost all of them go to flea
00:13:31
because flea puts them
in their microphones.
00:13:33
It's hard to get a hold of a Tim
Campbell sequel.
00:13:36
Or, you know, for any of us capsules.
00:13:38
There's a couple other guys that do it,
and I, their names are escaping me.
00:13:42
So I apologize to to those fellas, but,
I really like Ben's
00:13:46
because he can pump them out really quick.
00:13:48
He can match them really well
because we put them in our in our high end
00:13:51
stereo mic as well of the 24
and the front and the backs.
00:13:54
And like all four diaphragms
have to be matched
00:13:56
within like 1 or 2 of our odds of each
other for it to sound the same.
00:14:00
Right? And for it to be a.
00:14:01
Proper like figure eight
that's equal on both sides.
00:14:03
And then you can do it correctly
and properly and all that. Yeah.
00:14:06
Before you even get to how you're
polarizing it and how you're treating it
00:14:09
within the circuit, the capsule
has to be constructed really, really well.
00:14:14
And even then, you know, like, it's
so easy for them to come out of alignment
00:14:18
from various and, and,
you know, if one screw comes loose, it
00:14:21
messes up the whole diaphragm tension
because they're not glued to the ring.
00:14:24
Right? So, it's like a drumhead.
00:14:27
You know, so there are some capsules that,
like our capsule,
00:14:31
it's actually glued to the ring
when it's manufactured
00:14:34
so that I could, in theory, take apart
the capsule, put it back together
00:14:38
in a clean room because you don't want
any dust in there whatsoever,
00:14:41
and it would still sound the same.
00:14:42
Whereas with a k 12, you.
00:14:45
So. Yeah.
00:14:46
Yeah. Why?
00:14:47
What's the difference? There's.
00:14:48
Because I've got a 414 EB. Yeah.
00:14:51
Yes. It's got a 93 ring to it.
00:14:53
But it's got the nylon capsule.
00:14:55
Yeah. At here.
00:14:56
Hang on, I've got one on my desk
00:14:57
because I repair mics for
a living and I can show you.
00:15:01
We might be calling you.
00:15:02
I have some. Oh.
00:15:07
Where where are you located?
00:15:09
Actually, Derek might have an inside line
on getting some mics fixed for you
00:15:12
there, Robert.
00:15:13
Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah.
00:15:15
You guys want to talk offline?
00:15:17
Oh that's fine.
00:15:17
I've got, I've got,
m 49 to use 67 sitting in a box over here.
00:15:22
I've got, I've got at any time
I've got like 20 or 30
00:15:25
grand worth of vintage
mic sitting that aren't working.
00:15:27
So this is the one you're talking about.
This are Teflon first.
00:15:30
Yeah.
00:15:30
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:31
So, when AKG was making that original K
00:15:34
12, brass capsule,
it was incredibly complicated.
00:15:37
Ingenious designs,
super difficult to manufacture.
00:15:39
They were thrown away
00:15:40
about half the capsules
they built with a standard wooden RCA.
00:15:43
So what they did is
00:15:45
they came out with something
that was much simpler to manufacture.
00:15:49
It does not have the complex back plates.
00:15:50
In fact,
you can see inside it's all plastic.
00:15:53
And they have a little screen
00:15:55
in there as the acoustic resistance
in between the two capsules
00:15:58
and then the back plate itself.
00:15:59
I don't know if I have a back
plate in here.
00:16:01
Gotcha.
00:16:01
I'll show you right now because I've got
I've got this whole thing apart
00:16:04
so I don't have. A whole thing. Right?
00:16:07
Yes, yes. Here's the diaphragm. Right.
00:16:10
This is one with a hole in it.
00:16:11
Speaking of broken diaphragms,
you can see why this one had to come out.
00:16:14
So, so so what happens with that one is
that it's short set with someone's breath.
00:16:18
Because of the hole, right?
00:16:19
Yes. Or it shorts out already
right against the back of the diaphragm
00:16:22
because it's a capacitor. Right.
00:16:23
So you have to have a charge state
between the.
00:16:25
Two of them and it just attracts. Yeah.
00:16:27
And if electrons are no
they have a short over to the other side.
00:16:31
Then you no longer
have a charge state on them.
00:16:34
I don't have a back plate in this box
oddly enough, but yeah.
00:16:37
Back plates.
00:16:38
This is a newer this is the egg,
the Teflon capsule that has the newer.
00:16:42
You can see those holes in the back
for the resistance.
00:16:44
Back plates generally look like that.
00:16:46
I wish I had grabbed the.
00:16:47
So I've seen some of the back back plates
00:16:48
that have like holes
all the way through them.
00:16:51
Like all over the place. Yeah.
00:16:52
And then some just have and that's, that's
to let the acoustic pressure go through.
00:16:57
Right.
That's the purpose of those holes. Yes.
00:16:59
There is through holes
and there's blind holes.
00:17:01
Blind hole.
00:17:01
And they both serve similar purposes
in some way.
00:17:05
But blind holes are like act like dampers
because if you had no blind holes
00:17:10
and this was tuned to 1000Hz
and somebody sings 1000Hz
00:17:13
into it, it's going to ring just like a
like a tom, right?
00:17:16
Like a for Tom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:18
So those blind holes, what they do is
they are an acoustic damping factor
00:17:21
that prevent it
from resonating at its frequency.
00:17:24
So then across the spectrum
you get, in theory even sound,
00:17:28
although, you know, because it's nothing's
perfect and there's physics at play.
00:17:33
That's
why there's so many different capsules
00:17:34
that sound so many different ways.
00:17:36
They sound like our ears.
00:17:37
So quick, quick add moment.
00:17:39
But therefore a small diaphragm microphone
has a much higher resonant frequency,
00:17:44
and that makes it better to tune
and flatter across the audible spectrum.
00:17:48
Not necessarily because it's by tension.
00:17:50
Right.
00:17:51
Part of the reason why they are,
00:17:53
there's less mass,
so there's less to work with there.
00:17:57
And then I did a video on this
and I won't get super deep into it,
00:18:01
but off axis response tends
to be much better on small diaphragms.
00:18:05
Because.
00:18:06
Of the way that it interprets
sound as a pressure microphone.
00:18:09
And,
and I did a video on this on Instagram.
00:18:13
I'm not going to explain it to you guys.
00:18:15
I think if your audience hasn't
bored to tears yet, I might not.
00:18:18
Some of them might start.
00:18:19
I can already tell you for now,
this the the three hours that we have
00:18:22
will not be enough. But that's
00:18:25
what's so to answer.
00:18:26
Andrew. Right. Andrew.
00:18:28
Zap it.
00:18:29
To answer your original question,
00:18:30
they went to the Teflon capsules
because they're easier
00:18:32
to mass manufacture,
but they don't sound nearly as good.
00:18:35
Now, the EBS were the last ones to use the
brass capsules, but not all of them did.
00:18:40
That said, I greatly prefer the EP 48,
which was the one after it.
00:18:45
To the EB.
00:18:45
Circuit wise, it's a much better
circuit, has quieter,
00:18:49
it has better output, less self noise,
higher, spoils before distortion.
00:18:55
But people like the EBS because they were
the last one to use the brass capsule.
00:18:58
If you take a knees brass capsule
and put it in an EB, which I've done for 3
00:19:02
or 4 clients
now, they sound extraordinary.
00:19:06
They sound so good.
00:19:07
I've got my abs a p 48.
00:19:10
How do you tell the difference between O
and EB 48?
00:19:13
An E? Well, it's whack for one. Yeah.
00:19:16
So it is.
00:19:17
Okay so the so the brass ones are silver
and the P40 eight is gotcha.
00:19:22
But some of the, some of the silver ones
had the Teflon capsules too.
00:19:25
That's when they changed over. Yeah.
00:19:27
But you can tell a Teflon capsule just
by looking straight into it because yeah.
00:19:31
I mean I mean a brass capsule looks like.
00:19:33
Yeah. You see. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:35
I wish I had one sitting on my desk,
but you can see it right through.
00:19:38
And you'll see the Teflon when it looks
white like this on the inside,
00:19:41
all you gotta do is shine
a light through the back of it.
00:19:43
And if you see, I just dropped this one.
00:19:45
Not that it matters, because. That it's.
00:19:47
Very broken. Yes.
00:19:49
Yeah,
I think it had more problems before that.
00:19:51
But, you can actually see this little
like crinkly material
00:19:55
that they use for the spacer
because you can actually unscrew this.
00:19:57
This is two halves, believe it or not.
00:20:00
You can see that's that crinkly material.
00:20:02
And you can see that on some of them,
on the older.
00:20:04
Ones you can probably see mine.
00:20:06
Can you see it's white.
00:20:07
Yeah.
00:20:08
Yeah I believe it is also the
00:20:09
you'll see screws on the brass
like you see the ring on this.
00:20:13
Yeah. They just pressure fit this.
00:20:15
So there's no screws on this one
and on this one.
00:20:19
And I'm just going to move this one
because. This is a.
00:20:21
Make this sound right.
00:20:21
So this is a brass capsule cage.
00:20:23
This is a. Brass K 12.
You can see the screws on the right.
00:20:26
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
00:20:27
So that's like
that's like a $3 Mike or something.
00:20:30
What is that. This is a $5 Mike Jesus.
00:20:33
This is a
this is and I'm not even talking into it.
00:20:36
Here's me talking into it right now.
Let me change over.
00:20:38
Can you guys hear me? Okay. Yep.
00:20:40
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:20:41
I was turned sideways,
so you probably hear me very well at all.
00:20:43
This one has three voicings on it.
00:20:45
So it has a ribbon mode,
a c 12 mode and a 251 mode.
00:20:48
Oh. Can hear the
00:20:50
oh yeah.
00:20:50
Sure you're going to hear a pop.
00:20:51
So that's a lot to fix that in post.
00:20:53
Right now I want to make one.
00:20:54
Condenser mike sound like a ribbon.
00:20:57
A lot of it is just voicing right.
00:20:59
It's selective EQ ING with
00:21:02
with different functions
within the actual audio circuit.
00:21:05
But now we're in ribbon mode,
and I've currently got
00:21:07
the voltage pushed all the way up,
and it's in hyper cardioid.
00:21:10
So let me throw in figure eight.
So it's actually even more like a ribbon.
00:21:12
Wow. Even over with me.
00:21:14
We can really hear that.
00:21:16
Oh, I can totally hear the difference over
Google me.
00:21:18
Yeah. Nine polar.
00:21:19
I wish I wish I hadn't taken apart
my entire desk right before this
00:21:22
because my interface was misbehaving.
00:21:24
Oh, and you're hearing me
throw a focus right to it, too.
00:21:26
There's nothing.
00:21:27
So the V 14 is the C12
one that you're on right now.
00:21:31
Yes, it's. The K 12.
00:21:33
So this has the polar patterns
and it also has a tube voltage control.
00:21:37
So right now I'm overdriving the tube
on this microphone.
00:21:40
But I can also sag it back and it's
going to sound completely different.
00:21:43
You're also going to lose several decibels
as I say I get back.
00:21:46
But let's let it stabilize.
00:21:48
And I'm
going to punch this up a little bit,
00:21:51
and now it's going to sound
like a different microphone.
00:21:54
My, because of the way.
00:21:56
Yeah. So I gotta
I gotta punch that back up.
00:21:59
I'm going to dial it back. There we go.
00:22:01
Dial it back to a more reasonable level.
00:22:03
This is split personality microphone.
00:22:06
It sounds.
00:22:07
It's. About as analog modeling microphone
as you can get.
00:22:10
So I'll say it.
00:22:11
But I don't think anybody has that ability
like now.
00:22:14
Like I've got to sag the voltage
or overdrive the voltage.
00:22:17
Right on the microphone itself.
00:22:19
I've got a provisional patent on that
because it's going to go in our V 13
00:22:21
eventually as well.
00:22:22
So yeah.
00:22:23
This is the sort of mad scientist stuff.
00:22:26
I mean, you can see this is my little mad
scientist desk because.
00:22:29
This. Is much bigger.
00:22:31
It's going to comment on the background.
Yeah.
00:22:33
Yeah,
that's that's why I do my mic repairs.
00:22:35
I've got a national Panasonic M7 38
open on the desk right now.
00:22:39
So which is their version of a Sony
C 37 fat, Okay. Wow.
00:22:45
Panasonic made microphones for a while.
00:22:46
Believe it or not,
that's. Bizarre that I live in either.
00:22:49
And then I.
00:22:49
Switch back to the other microphone
so you guys can actually.
00:22:52
How do you keep
all those numbers in your head?
00:22:53
Because I I'll be honest with you.
00:22:55
I mean, like my models and stuff,
I'm useless.
00:23:00
Seriously, hold all those numbers
and, you know, models and stuff.
00:23:04
And. All that stuff.
00:23:05
Yeah,
I think I straight up I'm on the spectrum.
00:23:07
I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
00:23:10
But also like, you like what you focus
on, right?
00:23:12
Like, if you're into fantasy football,
you can name, like,
00:23:14
the third string quarterback
for every team in the NFL.
00:23:17
Yeah.
00:23:17
Any concert
I can name all the mikes on the drum
00:23:19
set and everything like, oh, that's a
I know, D4 21, right?
00:23:23
Yeah.
00:23:24
It's just it's just how I roll.
And that's what I'm into.
00:23:27
So, you know.
00:23:28
My brother's an airline pilots
I suppose it's similar.
00:23:30
It's the same.
00:23:31
So yeah, it's just
you know, human brain is a powerful thing.
00:23:33
You just have to focus its attention
on things.
00:23:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:36
Now, talking of diaphragms,
what about the M7?
00:23:39
I have an M7 capsule.
00:23:40
Let's talk about protected sex.
00:23:42
Oh, sorry.
00:23:45
And with mylar or the.
00:23:47
Yeah,
I think Rob. So the M7. Conversation.
00:23:50
Anyway, go. Yeah. It's kind of the you.
00:23:55
Right.
00:23:56
The most brutal. In the groove. Yeah.
00:23:58
They said that but can't get pregnant.
00:24:02
Anyway, so.
00:24:03
The M7 was the predecessor
in many ways to the K
00:24:07
47 which is in the year 47 in fact.
00:24:10
And somebody is going to correct me
on this.
00:24:13
My Neumann history isn't good.
00:24:14
So if I'm wrong, somebody in the comments
on undoubtedly tell. Me actually.
00:24:17
Then I feel like some of the
you 40 sevens actually had him sevens
00:24:20
and they did initially.
They absolutely did. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
00:24:23
Now the M7 was very tough,
00:24:25
even more difficult manufacturer
in some ways than the than the K12
00:24:29
because of the way
the diaphragm was glued on.
00:24:30
And also they were using polyvinyl
chloride, using PVC for the diaphragm.
00:24:34
That's instead of
it would disintegrate, right.
00:24:36
It would disintegrate.
00:24:37
That's correct.
00:24:38
In fact I wish I had it available.
00:24:41
I have an M7 here right now
that looks like it's been hit by a gun.
00:24:46
And M7 capsule
was just completely exploded.
00:24:49
It looks like the alien baby
from the movie came out.
00:24:52
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:53
I don't know what somebody did to it,
but it's getting re scan.
00:24:55
Not by me.
00:24:56
I drink too much coffee for re scans.
00:24:58
Although I am eventually going to learn,
00:25:00
I promised myself
I just, I just haven't done it yet,
00:25:03
so I'm going to send it down to Dave
Willard Heisman, who does re scans for me.
00:25:06
And, Dave Pearlman in LA also does
there's theater in Europe that does but,
00:25:12
yeah, the M7 has a very
00:25:13
similar hole back
plate design to the, to AK 47.
00:25:18
It's actually a single back plate.
00:25:20
Whereas with the K 67
they actually do two back plates
00:25:22
because it's easier to match the two.
00:25:24
The two are the two sides.
00:25:25
I suppose because of the voltage
00:25:27
increase on the two might compare to the U
87 that needed a lower voltage.
00:25:31
No, actually the the K 47 and the K
00:25:34
67 can handle similar polarization
voltages before collapse.
00:25:37
I think it's more to do
with ease of manufacturing.
00:25:41
So the K 40.
00:25:43
Does that difference in space cause
an issue in figure eight with phase? No.
00:25:48
It doesn't.
00:25:49
Know.
00:25:50
I mean, I'm in figure
eight on this other mic right here.
00:25:53
So let me turn it back up real quick.
00:25:55
And this is, this is two back plates,
a k 12 style
00:25:59
capsule has two back plates on it.
00:26:00
And I'm talking to the front right now.
00:26:02
Now I'm talking to the side and I got you.
00:26:04
You can. Barely hear. I swear to God,
I swear to God.
00:26:07
Ribbon makes no out to zero. And the.
00:26:10
And the dual
diaphragm condenser is on the side.
00:26:14
Don't quite know out like a ribbon does.
00:26:17
I think it's possible
that there is a slight change in that,
00:26:21
but I think for the effect
of what you're actually looking for in,
00:26:26
in, in actual real world
00:26:28
usage that no, you're talking
from going from like,
00:26:32
let's say I'm peaking at minus
ten to now, I'm peaking at -65.
00:26:35
Yeah. It's negligible.
00:26:37
It's effectively nothing.
00:26:38
Well, the only.
00:26:38
Reason we could hear you just
00:26:40
then when you did your side test,
was to see the reverberation itself.
00:26:43
Also down here.
00:26:44
Only hearing your voice bouncing
off the wall the mike was pointing. At.
00:26:48
But that would direct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:50
Oh, so there's.
00:26:51
A couple other things at play.
00:26:52
If so,
because we tune this very carefully.
00:26:54
So that the back plate voltage is exactly
half of the rear diaphragm voltage
00:26:58
because the front diaphragm is grounded.
00:26:59
Right.
00:27:00
So you were talking about balance power
earlier and it's kind of the same thing.
00:27:03
Right.
00:27:03
So basically
00:27:04
what's happening is the back plates
charge to let's say 50V to make it easy.
00:27:08
The front diaphragm is grounded.
00:27:09
So now we have a 50 volt
00:27:11
potential between the front diaphragm
and the back plate 50 -0.
00:27:14
Now if we put the real one at 100V
it's 50 -100.
00:27:17
So it's -50.
00:27:19
-50 potential between the rear diaphragm
in the back plate.
00:27:23
And so when I talk into the front, it's
producing, sine wave.
00:27:27
And when I talking to the rear, it's
producing a cosine.
00:27:30
And when you go to the side, then it goes.
00:27:32
Cancels out saying plus cosine
is. Exactly.
00:27:34
Yeah, exactly.
You remember math class. Not ever.
00:27:36
But it is a. Little bit to makes sense.
Yeah.
00:27:38
Yeah okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:40
So that that's one way to polarize.
00:27:42
Not that's
not every capital polarization scheme.
00:27:45
That's the one that we use
on all our microphones.
00:27:47
But I think it's probably the cleverest.
00:27:50
But there are other ways to do it.
00:27:51
I mean, you could peel this onion down
as much as you wanted.
00:27:55
And we could get so nerdy here.
00:27:58
But I hope I'm hope.
00:28:00
Like I said, I hope you're audio juice.
00:28:01
Did you do a diaphragm
where actually you do a single diaphragm,
00:28:05
and then you put the charge plate.
00:28:08
On the outside. On the. Outside?
00:28:09
Yeah. Yes.
And there are mics that do that.
00:28:12
Yeah.
00:28:13
There are mics for the diaphragms
in between two charge plates.
00:28:16
But then you're.
00:28:16
But then you're literally singing
through those holes and you get the.
00:28:20
Not necessarily a problem,
believe it or not.
00:28:23
Yeah.
00:28:24
Not necessarily a problem,
but there are mics
00:28:27
where there's a suspended
diaphragm between two, two back plates.
00:28:30
Yeah,
they come with their own sets of problems.
00:28:32
I've never designed one.
I don't even think I've worked on one.
00:28:34
And I'm kind of glad
because they're complicated.
00:28:37
But, you know, never say never.
00:28:40
Let me ask you something.
00:28:40
About what is important
about a mic design.
00:28:43
Now, this may seem terribly obvious,
but it may not be what is the most.
00:28:47
And like if you're looking
at the main components of a microphone,
00:28:50
what influences
00:28:51
the sound that the actor of the performer
is going to hear the most?
00:28:55
Is it the capsule, the electronics,
or is the tube or what is?
00:28:59
Yeah.
00:29:00
Because I've understood
this whole interview.
00:29:04
I think
that like tube mikes for a long time
00:29:07
I was like YouTube make tube to make.
00:29:08
And it's like tubes don't make as big
of a difference as transformers.
00:29:12
I think.
00:29:13
And the capsules are a lot of the voicing.
00:29:16
The capsules are 90% of it, honestly,
like I can the way I look at that.
00:29:20
So we use the same capsule in our V 13
R v for
00:29:23
and because of that
you can tell their siblings, right?
00:29:25
It's like when you look at two people
and you're like,
00:29:27
you definitely came from the same parents.
00:29:28
The capsule I think has such
a strong influence on on the voicing.
00:29:34
Now, there are things you can do
in the circuit that change that.
00:29:36
The most obvious being actual passive
EQ moves, like,
00:29:41
like roll offs
and, and, inductive tertiary loops.
00:29:45
And what those people are doing
is changing out
00:29:49
circuit to try to influence
the voicing of the mic in some way.
00:29:52
Sometimes,
sometimes they replacing the full capsule.
00:29:54
If it's a crummy capsule, you know,
00:29:56
that's the single biggest thing
you can do.
00:29:58
I liken it
to, like, making a steak. Right.
00:30:00
Apologies to any vegans and vegetarians
in the audience.
00:30:04
I don't eat beef anymore myself,
so I understand.
00:30:06
But if you're making a steak
and you start out with, like, skirt
00:30:09
meat, right, you can make a Kearney asada,
but God help you
00:30:11
if you're trying to make, like a rib eye,
you know,
00:30:14
I mean, gotta get the right cut.
00:30:16
I mean, been the bee's knees
kind of explain that to me
00:30:18
because it, like, long ago,
00:30:19
I had them take some Mike's
and I gave him some Chinese Mike's, too.
00:30:22
And this was
00:30:23
when he was starting out, like,
I think at this point, like 15 years ago.
00:30:27
And I was like,
I want to basically like a nice two
00:30:31
mike out of this Chinese Mike,
just change the circuit.
00:30:33
And he's like, know me.
00:30:34
Like I'm doing the whole Mike.
00:30:37
Like the only thing
that's going to survive is the body.
00:30:40
Yeah. You're basically
you're just using the chassis. Right.
00:30:43
And like the.
00:30:43
And Ben wins his own toroidal transformers
with glass laminations
00:30:47
and all this crazy stuff.
00:30:48
I don't get that deep.
00:30:49
But, he probably he he'd probably be.
00:30:52
You know, if you really want a super nerd
guest, he would put me to shame.
00:30:57
In terms of Mike, you know,
with the capsule design itself, but so.
00:31:00
So the capsule itself is the number one
thing that influences the tone.
00:31:03
The next thing down the list would be.
00:31:04
What transformer, I think.
00:31:06
Oh, I disagree on that, actually.
00:31:08
Ooh, the transformer is size.
00:31:11
Transformer size. Yes.
00:31:12
It's not the size of the transformer. It's
how you use it.
00:31:15
Fight fight fight fight.
00:31:16
So the transformer transformer.
00:31:18
Can be depending on the way
it's hit by the amplifying,
00:31:23
by the actual act of electronics, the tube
or the FET.
00:31:26
Right. Okay.
00:31:27
I would say that the most important thing
00:31:30
after that is what the capsule goes into.
00:31:33
And it's it's an impedance converter.
Right.
00:31:35
Capsule impedance is super crazy high
like giga ohms.
00:31:37
We're talking. Right.
00:31:39
So when it gets when it hits the FET,
the FET reduces it
00:31:42
to a more manageable impedance, usually
in the thousands of arms or the tube.
00:31:45
And then the transformer does even more
so a lot of the time, although not all is.
00:31:49
It depends on the mic.
00:31:50
So what it's hitting
next is the Japhet or the tube.
00:31:55
And I think that probably has
00:31:56
the second biggest influence because that
signal is unadulterated at that point.
00:32:00
Then I probably go
with any signal path capacitors
00:32:05
at a certain level,
a lot of cheaper bikes are using super
00:32:08
cheap signal path capacitors,
and they can introduce distortion
00:32:12
and depending on the mic design.
00:32:16
I will credit Robert here that the
Transformers probably next on that list
00:32:20
if the capacitors are already good,
or if the signal path capacitors
00:32:23
don't mean anything
to the audio in particular, but you have
00:32:27
that minimum, you have one
which is decoupling the power
00:32:29
from the tube,
to the transformer in like a C12.
00:32:33
So for your mic designs, transformers
are a part of all your my designs.
00:32:38
No, this is a transformer less.
00:32:39
Yeah.
00:32:40
I was like, actually, I was going to say
because there's two mics
00:32:42
that I can think of like,
the, the 414 TL two,
00:32:46
which is transformer less, I believe that
I believe is a standout Mike.
00:32:50
And whatever they did
and the other AKG mic which is like
00:32:54
I wish I still had it got stolen,
but I had a 460 B with AK1 capsule.
00:32:59
Okay, that's transformer loss.
00:33:00
And that fucking mic was great
and I don't know what it is about it.
00:33:03
So not there as a mic.
00:33:07
Like I think the Transformers.
00:33:09
Style two is they're very much more on
like the flatter
00:33:12
like like 450 ones
and four 60s were very much like that.
00:33:15
Also the 451 two this is from a 451 B ULS
00:33:19
and this is from a TR2
that were made at the same time.
00:33:21
Oh I should flip this around. Notice
how different those are.
00:33:24
Yeah. In the middle. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:26
So they were actually using which one
is the teal to the telltale to okay.
00:33:30
It's a different back plate.
00:33:32
It's a different acoustic
resistance piece that's more complex.
00:33:37
That's actually a lot more like
the original K 12.
00:33:40
So back to the diaphragm being the hinge.
00:33:43
To the capsule
being the most important thing
00:33:46
because Ulf is in tattoos now.
00:33:48
The tattoos, there's also other reasons.
00:33:50
Like you said, there's no transformer.
00:33:51
But the capsule is different in a tattoo
than it is in the US.
00:33:57
And most people
don't realize that it didn't work.
00:33:59
I never knew that. Actually,
most people don't.
00:34:01
There's the
this is, the only or triple O9.
00:34:04
This is the Z0005 capsules from AKG.
00:34:07
And then really the only. Difference
smaller is what is it?
00:34:10
Because it looks like there's.
00:34:11
This is just a piece of screen fine mesh.
00:34:13
And that's the acoustic resistance.
00:34:15
And this is an actual resistance
network made of brass I see.
00:34:19
Oh well yeah.
00:34:19
Yep. Do you, what did you ever work on?
00:34:22
Microtech.
00:34:23
AFL and I haven't yet actually, believe it
or not, NFTs or Microtech waffles.
00:34:28
No, I haven't, but,
I mean, I can I've done.
00:34:31
I have somebody that's supposed to send me
a pair of, 70s from Microtech depot.
00:34:35
They just have it. It's dealing
with musicians.
00:34:37
Andrew, what's all that you have?
You have a really good sounding one. I've.
00:34:40
I've got two of them.
00:34:41
I've got the,
M 92.1 s, which is, got the,
00:34:46
the F-86 chip and the M7 capsule,
00:34:53
and I've got m 930,
which is Transformers, but it was just
00:34:57
one of the, the, the 80 they produced
for the 80th anniversary of Norman.
00:35:02
No. Wow.
00:35:03
That's cool.
00:35:04
So the other one is kind of a it's
kind of a
00:35:05
you 67 ish thing,
but then it's got the M7 capsule.
00:35:09
And so the K 67 is based.
00:35:10
On the 57 I think it was it even 57
00:35:14
that was built back in the late 50s,
probably as what was called the. 57.
00:35:18
Yeah,
the 57 was kind of a, transitional model.
00:35:22
Between the 67 and
00:35:23
the eight or between the 47 and the 67.
00:35:27
Maybe because models. Were no more.
00:35:30
Particular
for that had the two Norman factories.
00:35:32
So you had the original air factory left
Berlin, went to GFL during the war.
00:35:38
Then George went back to Berlin
with Neumann.
00:35:41
But they can't because of the wall.
00:35:43
Cups. In East Germany.
00:35:45
Microtech AFL,
which wasn't called magnetic.
00:35:47
So back then it was some other name,
but it eventually became Microtech.
00:35:50
AFL was actually still
the original Neumann,
00:35:53
and they still produced the M7 capsule
00:35:55
on the original plant on the recently.
00:35:58
Oh, all the way.
00:35:59
Also, it's still the 50s after after the
yeah western.
00:36:03
So yeah.
00:36:04
If you find telephone can branded
you 40 sevens and stuff.
00:36:07
That's because telephone
can never actually made a mike AKG a
00:36:09
Raymond made all their mics for it. Yeah.
00:36:12
So you know a telephone can even now to
this day is just a name that's warranted.
00:36:16
And but I mean, one guy I know, it's
just come to work in television.
00:36:20
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:22
And there was a he sent me a telephone TV
while he's in Malaysia.
00:36:25
And you can get a telephone,
can vacuum cleaner, a toaster in Israel.
00:36:28
They tell like
it was kind of like RadioShack in a way.
00:36:30
Yeah. Pretty much.
00:36:31
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:32
But the mics, you know what I mean?
I mean, I.
00:36:35
I had RadioShack
mikes that were made by sure.
00:36:38
That's, you know, the the
other really interesting thing is like,
00:36:41
really early
microphones were made by Westinghouse.
00:36:44
Yes. Well, Westinghouse was the first
makers of a condenser, along with, yeah.
00:36:48
Or was it
you get a washing machine house or RCA.
00:36:50
So if, you know.
00:36:52
I believe it was just as Westinghouse.
Yeah.
00:36:55
Like it was a giant box RCA.
00:36:58
Like there's a national Panasonic.
00:36:59
Like I said,
00:37:00
I didn't know Panasonic made microphones
until this guy was like the Sony.
00:37:03
Get into it.
00:37:04
Sony was early, but I don't know.
00:37:06
I don't know, to be honest with you.
00:37:08
But they were they make
they still make some good ones, you know.
00:37:10
Oh they definitely I think yeah.
00:37:12
Yeah I think they got into it in the 60s
because I saw a really early,
00:37:16
pretty shitty Love Boat, so.
00:37:17
Well they made some, they made some good
to make some of those early Sony.
00:37:20
Oh yeah. To see 37
is are pretty incredible.
00:37:24
And I want to go back to.
00:37:25
414 like Sony.
00:37:27
Mike I think it was a 48.
00:37:29
But it was also pretty decent.
00:37:31
I forget the they.
00:37:32
Have they had some cool esoteric models.
00:37:35
George,
I want to go back to your question,
00:37:36
because I do think there's
something important
00:37:38
that I want to mention that I forgot about
what makes a microphone sound best.
00:37:42
This is where it gets more philosophical.
00:37:43
The singer.
00:37:45
Exactly.
00:37:46
Yeah. Wait, wait a spoil it, Robert.
00:37:48
He looks like.
00:37:51
No, it's absolutely the performance.
00:37:53
Like, I as an engineer, I was taught very
early on, like, mediocre engineering.
00:37:57
Can't ruin a fantastic performance.
00:37:59
Like, if you listen to, the song War.
00:38:02
Yeah.
00:38:02
Oh, good God, yeah.
00:38:03
That tambourine is putting an ice
00:38:05
pick through your eardrums
on any modern system.
00:38:09
And and Mazzy Stars fade into you is also,
like, super bright and harsh and grimy,
00:38:14
and the songs and performances
were incredible, and it didn't matter.
00:38:19
It's almost like that engineering becomes
part of it.
00:38:21
I have a friend from New York
is, Jim Reeves.
00:38:25
He was doing all these records
in New York in the 60s.
00:38:28
It gets into the 70s and,
you know, modern equipment's coming out
00:38:32
and digital comes out.
00:38:33
So I meet him around the,
the like the late 80s, 90s, and he's
00:38:36
talking about digital and he's like, oh,
the kids, they want analog.
00:38:41
And I'm pretty sure
what they're all fascinated with
00:38:43
is the sound of a tape deck
that hasn't been aligned in three weeks.
00:38:47
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:49
Possible.
00:38:49
Well, I was going to say this.
00:38:50
The singer
and the performance is king, obviously.
00:38:53
Yeah.
00:38:53
I was going to say the mic placement is
actually has such.
00:38:57
I was just
that has a lot to do with it too.
00:39:00
Absolutely.
00:39:00
I think for voice over guys triple A.
00:39:02
So I think I think you know with singers
you can get a particularly like on
00:39:06
this mic.
00:39:07
I can go to a wide
00:39:07
cardioid on the on the V 14
and I can get away with a lot of things.
00:39:11
But like a lot of you guys
use four sixteens
00:39:13
because the whole Ernie Anderson thing
because you move a centimeter.
00:39:16
41 six, thank you very much.
00:39:18
I know that's. Right.
00:39:19
41 six apologies.
00:39:21
But it's the proximity
that it's it's not just like placement
00:39:25
but it's like technique
and how to play the mic.
00:39:28
Well.
00:39:28
And voiceover guys have to do that
so carefully on a 416 that I think
00:39:32
they get really good at it.
00:39:33
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:34
Well they I suck at it too.
00:39:36
I ever play. Exactly.
00:39:37
Yeah I've seen Mike placement
because they had somebody sitting up here
00:39:41
and then they sometimes
it's pointing down like this off chest.
00:39:45
Yeah. Like that sounds terrible.
00:39:46
I've seen a guy point the mic up
and up above his head like this.
00:39:50
No no no.
00:39:51
Placement is extremely,
extremely on target.
00:39:54
Placement. So important.
00:39:55
And I mean, I tell people
all the time, they put up a mic
00:39:58
and they've got the capsule
pointing at their nose.
00:40:01
I'm like, oh, that's why
00:40:02
part of why your take sounds nasally,
like my voice is super nasally by nature.
00:40:07
But if I'm.
00:40:08
250 to 500 or something like that.
00:40:10
Yeah, if I'm doing this, I'm
suddenly hearing a lot more of my know it.
00:40:13
My nose. Yeah.
00:40:14
As opposed to this, which is my chest
in my throat. My God forbid,
00:40:16
you're doing a rap performance
and they have their hand like this.
00:40:21
Oh. They.
00:40:23
And right.
00:40:23
It makes sure it makes your mike an omni.
00:40:26
Like if you go around the fence.
00:40:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:29
I tell you what's really what's
interesting is using this microphone.
00:40:33
What is this?
00:40:33
The Austrian audio,
CC eight. It's a pain.
00:40:36
Okay.
00:40:36
Yeah, it's it's got ACK1 style
capsule in it.
00:40:39
You've got to be really careful
00:40:42
with this thing.
00:40:44
They're sensitive about it.
00:40:45
Well, it's it's all. About where you. Are.
00:40:47
And it captures points to the front two.
Right.
00:40:49
It's not all the captions
00:40:50
like it's not right down in the barrel
like a 41 six or something.
00:40:54
But I had a quick question.
00:40:56
I wanted to take you back
a couple of minutes ago.
00:40:58
You were talking about EQ inside the mic.
00:41:01
Yeah.
00:41:02
When you if if you're designing a mic then
and you and you're setting up that EQ,
00:41:06
are you trying to get rid of nuances
you don't want there?
00:41:10
Or if you got a specific sound for that
mic in mind, is it a combination of both?
00:41:15
How how do you make decisions
on how you're going to echo.
00:41:18
Or you just trying to flatten
the curve out?
00:41:20
It's not necessarily
a flat curve is not necessarily
00:41:23
what you want out of a microphone.
00:41:24
Go look at a 251 curve.
00:41:26
It is the un flattest thing.
00:41:28
They roll it off
at like 300Hz on the early ones.
00:41:30
Because that transformer was so tiny
that they didn't want a saturated
00:41:33
low frequency saturate transformers.
00:41:35
So they had this little T14 transformer
in there
00:41:38
and, they rolled it off
artificially on the 251.
00:41:41
But it's one of the best
vocal mikes of all time.
00:41:43
And it's not a flat like at all. Right.
00:41:45
Like what it's more about to answer
your question rather, is, I think that
00:41:52
for me, it's more of a flow thing.
00:41:54
I will take four of a prototype
into a studio
00:41:57
and put it up against the best
mics that they have on a real session,
00:42:00
and I will have one component position
or one capsule
00:42:03
voicing or whatever, just one variable
in that, slightly different.
00:42:06
And then I go, okay,
I like this one the best and here's why
00:42:10
I like it
the best on this variety of sources.
00:42:12
Or maybe it's just a vocal
or just drums that day or whatever,
00:42:15
but it gives me
an idea of where to go next.
00:42:17
And it's it's sort of building the plane.
00:42:19
As you fly, you start with a good capsule
that's really important.
00:42:21
And we've we've gotten a good capsule
and we're really happy with it.
00:42:24
But then from there
00:42:25
you have to make
all these micro adjustments,
00:42:27
and some of those things
are making a 1 or 2% difference.
00:42:30
But it's like compound interest, right?
00:42:31
If I make 20 changes
that make a 2% difference.
00:42:35
I'm it's I'm, it's the baby of EQ
00:42:39
when you're mastering and then you
pop the EQ out and you're like, Holy cow.
00:42:43
But I only did a few.
00:42:44
Yeah, bunch of one DB changes.
00:42:46
And I did a LinkedIn post on that
the other day.
00:42:48
A good mix isn't about handfuls
of of one thing.
00:42:51
It's about lots of minute changes.
00:42:53
That's that's yeah, it's subtlety.
00:42:56
Right. And totally.
00:42:57
And some of that is like
for instance on on the V 14,
00:43:01
we like to mix because they have total
harmonic distortion if you tune it to mic
00:43:05
that like to a perfect,
to a perfect bias with a really good tube,
00:43:10
a lot of the time
it sounds like a fat mic,
00:43:12
and that's not what we want
out of a two mic. We want that.
00:43:14
We want that thing
that's imperfect, right?
00:43:16
Like,
yeah, you've heard the. Using a particular
00:43:18
it's the second harmonic distortion
that tubes tend to distort.
00:43:21
Even harmonics.
Yeah. Yeah. Even order harmonics.
00:43:23
And that's a really important
distinction.
00:43:26
You're absolutely right.
00:43:27
Guitarists are really about that.
00:43:28
So when you're trying that mic over
00:43:29
multiple sources, are you favoring the mic
that sounds the best overall?
00:43:33
Many different sources.
00:43:35
In general,
when you're designing your mics.
00:43:38
I try and I try and favor it that way.
00:43:40
I end up leaning that way because of,
you know, being a poor audio engineer
00:43:45
and not being able.
00:43:46
I was in college in America.
00:43:48
I was in enough debt. Right.
00:43:49
So I had to, either pick a $99 mic
I had to beat to death with in the mix
00:43:54
to get any use out of or, you know, spend
five grand, sell a kidney, what have you.
00:43:59
And I didn't really, you know, I,
I went with the cheap option.
00:44:02
Right.
00:44:03
And so, for me having a mic
that's versatile, having a mic
00:44:08
that was versatile was really important
when I was in engineering.
00:44:10
And I think that's kind of translated
in some ways to the way I designed you.
00:44:14
I don't I don't think people
realize, but when we started
00:44:18
any large diaphragm mic was like $1.
00:44:22
You couldn't turn. More. Yeah.
00:44:23
And it wasn't until China pops out with,
00:44:25
I think Marshall or whoever,
like the 979 factory.
00:44:29
A797, eight seven state run factory.
00:44:32
That's why it's got a number.
It's a state. Factory.
00:44:34
And all of a sudden
they're just banging out
00:44:35
these hundred dollar mikes
that were noisier.
00:44:38
But man, they were so like,
00:44:40
they had all the characteristics of a
of a large diaphragm like, well, and.
00:44:45
Other people were going
like they were coming from an SM 58.
00:44:49
Yeah.
00:44:49
If you come to it from an S,
I'm 58 to the shittiest.
00:44:52
Am I allowed to sway on this? Yes.
00:44:53
Every time that possible as possible.
00:44:57
Mql you know like early 90s. It makes.
00:45:00
Sense. Destroys it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:01
That has a fingerprint or whatever on it.
00:45:03
It still sounds way better at first
because you've got so much more high
00:45:08
frequency content, so much more transient
detail from a high dynamic.
00:45:11
Can't do what a condenser
does. It's just too much mass.
00:45:13
It was it was like the
the eight moment of microphones.
00:45:17
Yeah, yeah, in a lot of ways.
00:45:19
And I mean, I remember
people would buy ten of those mics.
00:45:22
They picked the one they liked the best
00:45:23
because they all sounded
remarkably different.
00:45:25
They were they were using a drill press
and a template to do the capsule
00:45:29
back plates
early on before they got CNC machining.
00:45:33
They were doing it by hand.
00:45:34
So they were vastly and like a fraction
of a millimeter makes a huge difference.
00:45:37
So, yeah, vastly different.
00:45:41
That's the Elise is a dot, not the Mach-E.
00:45:43
Just if you're.
00:45:44
Yes, it was the Mackie eight bucks.
00:45:46
Plus the Elise is a that a sudden gave
everybody a 24 track studio.
00:45:51
Exactly. Yeah.
00:45:52
It was like what just destroyed
the studio market.
00:45:55
Would you like to hear my favorite story
about the eight app from somebody
00:45:58
who worked at Elisa's at the time?
00:45:59
Oh yeah.
00:46:00
So they were hyping up
the eight at before Nam.
00:46:03
They were like,
this is going to be a big deal.
00:46:04
It's going to revolutionize music.
00:46:05
It's going to make it more accessible,
yada yada.
00:46:08
And at the show,
they could not get this machine to work.
00:46:11
Well, no,
they were panicking. For a while.
00:46:13
So what they did is they had them come in
and they had a tape machine
00:46:18
behind the curtain rolling tape,
and the buttons
00:46:22
on the front of the machine were wired
up to the tape machine like.
00:46:26
Oh my God, I can't go back.
00:46:30
And this is from somebody
who worked at AKG, mind you,
00:46:33
like, this is a this is a primary source
that was there for this.
00:46:37
They back then Nam was like the way
you got gear out, right?
00:46:41
This was pre-Internet
00:46:43
and they were like,
oh God, if this isn't working at the show,
00:46:45
like all our work
this year has been for nothing.
00:46:47
So they made a marketing decision
that sounds just like tape.
00:46:51
Guys. It is.
00:46:53
And it did not.
00:46:54
But hey.
00:46:55
Yeah, and here's a. Really funny one.
00:46:57
Not even kidding, that is. But insane.
00:47:01
That is insane.
00:47:01
I was I was at a studio
I worked at, had big socketed,
00:47:06
Journal X, and they were having a problem
with one of the speakers.
00:47:11
And so they had the speaker out
for like a week, and supposedly
00:47:15
they got the speaker back in,
but they played this practical joke on me.
00:47:18
And so they walked in there like,
00:47:19
we got the speaker back,
but it's not sounding the same.
00:47:21
And they had two tracks in ProTools,
one on the left, one on the right.
00:47:24
Looks like the same audio file.
00:47:25
And they're like, look, I play this one
and it sounds like this,
00:47:28
and I play that one
and it sounds like that.
00:47:30
And I was like, yeah, that is different.
What's going on?
00:47:32
And I at some point I go in, I'm like,
let me sit at ProTools.
00:47:35
That can't be.
00:47:36
And I started hitting play and I'm
trying to figure out what's going on.
00:47:39
And I start to notice that, like,
I think ProTools is delayed or something.
00:47:45
And right at that point when I'm like,
I think there's something wrong
00:47:47
with ProTools here, the assistant engineer
pops out of the soffit.
00:47:57
That's pretty good.
00:47:57
But he was following my playbacks
like pretty close because I just didn't
00:48:02
catch it.
00:48:02
Yeah, every I'd hit play, I'd be like,
this is the right miking.
00:48:07
And then you start saying, I'm.
00:48:07
Never gonna give you up.
00:48:10
I'll let you down.
00:48:14
Oh. Man.
00:48:15
What are the microphone questions that
are more accessible to to your audience?
00:48:19
I've got because me and me and Robert
could probably nerd out this entire.
00:48:23
Yeah.
00:48:24
Not probably.
00:48:24
You are.
00:48:28
I want to I just want to step you back.
00:48:30
Just back to to the mic creation thing
again, because it's got me fascinated.
00:48:34
So, and, and I'm interested to know
then if you're putting 3
00:48:38
or 4 mikes up in a room
and listening to each one,
00:48:43
are you as a source
for those when you're listening to them?
00:48:46
Are you using something that you imagine
that that might will be used
00:48:50
for, like hat like,
00:48:51
what are you using as a source to listen
to, to make these decisions?
00:48:55
Well, a lot of the time.
00:48:56
So like when we're doing development for,
you know, days at a time,
00:49:00
I'll be in the studio
with one guitar and one voice
00:49:03
and be working with that,
and it's my voice and my guitar.
00:49:06
So you can imagine
I don't ever release those tracks.
00:49:09
Okay.
00:49:09
But, but, then I take it into studios
for real world use, and it's, you know,
00:49:16
when I was living in L.A., I'd be like,
okay, my buddy
00:49:19
Cesar is having this big session
with this big artist,
00:49:22
and I just going to take it in
and see if I can throw it up
00:49:25
on that session on whatever. Right.
00:49:27
Because he's doing the set up
well beforehand.
00:49:29
So it might be on the drum overheads
00:49:31
that time around,
and then it might be guitar amps.
00:49:33
And other times it's like carrying it.
Around all different places. Yeah.
00:49:36
And that gives you a much better,
00:49:37
I think overall picture of what
the mic strengths and weaknesses are.
00:49:41
But to
00:49:43
I think it gives you a better overall
picture because different different piano
00:49:46
even like going between two pianos
00:49:48
you're going to get different
harmonic content, right?
00:49:50
So like, it's just to me,
getting an overall picture is not just,
00:49:55
you know, it's not the person at Nam
leaning in and going, one, two, one, two.
00:49:58
Yeah,
this sounds really good. Or jangling.
00:50:01
Is that. Means absolutely nothing. Right.
00:50:03
And you have to get and and it's funny
now when I hear my mike in a shootout,
00:50:08
a lot of the times, even having
00:50:09
never heard the instrument on its own,
I can pick my mic out of the crowd
00:50:12
just because that sonic fingerprint,
having listened to thousands of these,
00:50:17
has just permanently
00:50:20
embedded itself in my auditory cortex
at this point.
00:50:24
Yeah.
00:50:24
And I can be like, that's
probably the V 13 out of these four mikes.
00:50:27
And 90% of the time I'm right.
00:50:30
I always think
it's like you have to get to know them.
00:50:32
And it's like, you can't just get to know
Mike in one session.
00:50:34
You have to, play with it
and use it in different situations,
00:50:37
get a feel for how they react
and it takes time.
00:50:41
I will say this
00:50:42
I know you don't like to compare mikes
because they are really their own design
00:50:45
and they're unique, but I had a situation
where we got to hear it.
00:50:49
I got to hear it
in context alongside a you 67.
00:50:52
And David case plays case.
00:50:55
Yeah.
00:50:55
And I have to say
the V 13 was a hell of a good stand in.
00:51:01
When the 67 went out for service, it was.
00:51:04
67 is a little darker.
00:51:06
And the V 13 definitely
has the top end roll off.
00:51:09
I don't like a strident mike.
00:51:10
And once again, that's the Mike
philosophy, the Mike designer's
00:51:14
philosophy about sound like Dave Royer
the the Mojave.
00:51:18
Mike's designs are great mikes.
They're also way too bright for me.
00:51:20
Right. And people love the Mojave.
That doesn't mean they're bad. Mike's.
00:51:23
It just means that Dave has an idea
about what audio is.
00:51:26
That's different
00:51:34
Well, that was fun.
00:51:35
Is it over?
00:51:37
The audio. Sweet.
00:51:38
Thanks to tribal and Austrian audio
recorded using Sonos Connect.
00:51:43
Edited by Andrew Peters and mixed by
Bhutan Radio Imaging with tech support.
00:51:47
If you wish to check with them, don't
forget to subscribe to the show
00:51:50
and join the conversation
on our Facebook group to leave a comment.
00:51:54
Suggest a topic or just say goodbye.
00:51:56
Drop us a note at our website.
00:51:58
Protea suite.com.