Space Nuts Episode 488: Cosmic Curiosities - Primordial Black Holes, Ancient Galaxies, and the Ultimate Lagrange Point
Join Andrew Dunkley, Professor Fred Watson, and Professor Jonti Horner as they tackle intriguing questions from our listeners in this Q&A edition of Space Nuts. Dive into the mysteries of the universe with thought-provoking discussions on primordial black holes, ancient galaxies, and the concept of the ultimate Lagrange point.
Episode Highlights:
- Primordial Black Holes: Rusty from Donnybrook throws a cosmic curveball about the impact of a primordial black hole entering our solar system. Explore the fascinating scenarios and potential consequences with Fred and Jonti as they delve into gravitational dynamics and celestial mechanics.
- Ancient Galaxies: Marcel questions the age of the universe as the James Webb Space Telescope continues to uncover older galaxies. Fred and Jonti unravel the complexities of cosmic timelines and the implications for our understanding of galaxy formation and evolution.
- The Ultimate Lagrange Point : Buddy from Oregon ponders whether the center of a galaxy could be the ultimate Lagrange point. Discover the intricacies of gravitational balance and stability as Jonti explains the concept of Lagrange points and their cosmic significance.
- Expansion of the Universe: Michael from Illinois raises questions about the accelerating expansion of the universe and its effects on our solar system. Fred and Jonti discuss the interplay between cosmic expansion and gravitational forces, offering insights into the future of our universe.
For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website (https://www.spacenutspodcast.com/about)
Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
00:00 - Andrew Dunkley answers questions from audience about primordial black holes
02:08 - Rusty asks a question about black holes in the solar system
06:39 - Science currently holds the belief that our universe is 13.8 billion years old
09:54 - Scientists say HD140283 is older than the edge of the universe
13:23 - Would the center of a galaxy be like the ultimate Lagrange point
14:11 - Would the center of the galaxy be the ultimate Lagrange point
19:30 - Fred Ferguson: An accelerating expansion means everything in the universe is moving apart
24:20 - Patrick Lukaf: There have been several versions of Planet X proposed
32:22 - Don't forget to send us your questions via our website
www.spacenutspodcast.com/ama (https://spacenutspodcast.com/ama)
✍️ Episode References
James Webb Space Telescope
Dark Sky Traveller
http://darkskytraveller.com.au/
Methuselah Star (HD 140283)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_140283
Great Attractor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor
Planet Nine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine
Lagrange Points
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts--2631155/support (https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts--2631155/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss) .
Episode link: https://play.headliner.app/episode/25158567?utm_source=youtube
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 hi there thanks for joining us on a Q&A
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 Edition or even a Q&A edition of Space
00:00:05 --> 00:00:07 Nuts my name is Andrew Dunley your host
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 great to have your company coming up
00:00:09 --> 00:00:11 this time we're going to be answering
00:00:11 --> 00:00:13 questions from our audience about
00:00:13 --> 00:00:15 primordial black holes this is a wh if
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 question we love those uh someone else
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 is asking about old galaxies uh we are
00:00:20 --> 00:00:24 looking for the ultimate lrange point
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 and the accelerating universe which we
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 debunked in the last episode but uh
00:00:29 --> 00:00:30 we're going to unbun
00:00:30 --> 00:00:34 on this episode of Space Nuts 15 seconds
00:00:34 --> 00:00:38 guidance is internal 10 9 ignition
00:00:39 --> 00:00:44 sequence start space Nets 5 4 3 2 1 2 3
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 Space Nuts asut reported
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 feels good and joining me again is
00:00:51 --> 00:00:52 Professor Fred Watson astronomer at
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 large and Professor johy Horner
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 professor of astrophysics gentlemen
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 welcome thanks for joining us great
00:01:00 --> 00:01:01 pleasure Andrew good to be here good to
00:01:01 --> 00:01:04 have jonty on board as well which this
00:01:05 --> 00:01:07 this was your last show for a little
00:01:07 --> 00:01:11 while because you're jetting off to um
00:01:11 --> 00:01:14 somewhere to look uh well it's Sweden
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 Norway Iceland and Greenland and this
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 will be these tours are pretty regular
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 occasions as you know from man's dark
00:01:23 --> 00:01:25 sky traveler company I do the sign she
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 does all the real work uh but this will
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 be our the first time we've including
00:01:29 --> 00:01:31 Greenland in one of these so we're
00:01:31 --> 00:01:33 hoping for very spectacular views of
00:01:33 --> 00:01:35 icebergs as well as spectacular views of
00:01:35 --> 00:01:38 the Northern Lights Fantastic get an
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 American visa yet for Greenland
00:01:41 --> 00:01:44 no it's okay our Mary won't let it go I
00:01:44 --> 00:01:45 can tell
00:01:45 --> 00:01:49 you yeah well I'm Judy and I are
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 visiting Greenland later this year so we
00:01:51 --> 00:01:55 won't know who's actually
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 controlling we'll let you know what it's
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 like yeah but I've got my us uh Visa
00:02:00 --> 00:02:04 exemption so I should be right
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 I um shall we get straight into it why
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 not all right uh our first question
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 comes from somebody who's never sent a
00:02:13 --> 00:02:14 question in before except for the other
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 25 times Rusty from Donny Donny Brook TR
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 Andrew okay it's
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 Rusty a question about black
00:02:23 --> 00:02:27 Hol if a primordial black hole
00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 comparable with the THS of the Earth
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 were to enter the solar system at a high
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 angle to the ecliptic and impact one of
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 the rocky planets
00:02:39 --> 00:02:45 directly would it a pass through largely
00:02:45 --> 00:02:50 unnoticed B leave a huge hole through
00:02:50 --> 00:02:53 the center of the planet which would
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 cause a lot of mayem or
00:02:55 --> 00:03:00 C explode the planet completely or D
00:03:00 --> 00:03:04 none of the above heavy handing
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 Che um like I should tell you jonty that
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 uh Rusty has a habit of throwing curve
00:03:11 --> 00:03:12 balls at us he's always trying to trick
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 Fred so just bear that in mind when we
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 we try and Tackle this one well so I've
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 got a clarification request here because
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 you get two very different answers
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 depending on manuia here he says it's
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 the size of the Earth but if it's the
00:03:27 --> 00:03:30 size of the Earth then it's 2 times
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 the mass of the Sun a black hole that's
00:03:33 --> 00:03:35 the Earth if it's a black hole the mass
00:03:35 --> 00:03:38 of the Earth then it's 9 millimet across
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 and so you get a very different outcome
00:03:40 --> 00:03:41 depending on which of those it is I mean
00:03:42 --> 00:03:43 either way you're going to change the
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 orbits of the planets particularly the
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 one that it encounters but if it's the
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 size of the Earth and therefore 2200
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 times the mass of the Sun the solar
00:03:53 --> 00:03:54 system will be utterly disrupted the
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 planets will be ejected the thing it
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 hits will just kind of um inside it and
00:04:00 --> 00:04:01 its mass will have gone up a tiny little
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 amount if it's the mass of the Earth and
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 left on 9 mm across we probably wouldn't
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 see it coming we'd see the orbits
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 changing it will probably punch a 9 mm
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 sized hole through the Earth but there's
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 not really any friction there to slow it
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 down so I don't know that you get much
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 in the way of recoil but you would get a
00:04:20 --> 00:04:21 gravitational perturbation change in the
00:04:21 --> 00:04:23 Earth's orbit that would be my take so
00:04:24 --> 00:04:25 if it came through the Earth our orbit
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 would become more tilted Seasons would
00:04:28 --> 00:04:29 be more pronounced you'd also have a
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 fairly dramatic change in where the
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 planets are in the sky and all that
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 stuff um if it was 2200 times the mass
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 of the Sun this will be the last last
00:04:39 --> 00:04:44 podcast yeah I think um so yeah my take
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 on it is pretty well what yours is jonty
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 I just assumed it was the mass of the
00:04:48 --> 00:04:49 Earth we were talking about and I think
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 it's the um radius of the Event Horizon
00:04:52 --> 00:04:55 that's 9 millimeters uh of of an earth
00:04:55 --> 00:04:58 sized an earth Mass black hole but
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 something that size I mean you know you
00:05:01 --> 00:05:03 you said in in the intro to this Andrew
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 that it was Rusty throwing a curved ball
00:05:06 --> 00:05:07 and that's what it's going to be it
00:05:07 --> 00:05:10 would be it probably wouldn't be a
00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 direct hit because those are quite rare
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 it would but it would still be near
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 enough to a direct hit that the uh orbit
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 of the black hole would you know if it
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 came close enough to the Earth the tidal
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 effects on the Earth itself would be
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 disastrous uh one side of the earth
00:05:27 --> 00:05:28 feeling much more of a pull than the
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 other side so yeah effectively we would
00:05:31 --> 00:05:32 still be
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 spaghettified uh and um maybe a bit
00:05:35 --> 00:05:36 slower than you would if you just fell
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 into a black hole yourself but it would
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 be a fairly disastrous scenario as well
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 as you know per perturbing the orbits of
00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 the other planets it will be a mess so I
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 think it's D isn't it none of the above
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 is the correct answer for this the with
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 it with the Earth and Moon though will
00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 be because of the way the Earth and Moon
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 move if it came through you know if it's
00:05:58 --> 00:05:59 more than two or three times the Earth's
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 radius away we're not going to be
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 disrupted but we will have big tidal
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 effects but the Earth and the moon will
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 be pulled by different amounts in
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 different directions and so it might be
00:06:09 --> 00:06:10 enough to dissociate the Earth and Moon
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 and suddenly we'll have five planets not
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 four in the inner solar system with the
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 added impact that down the line of the
00:06:16 --> 00:06:17 Earth and the moon might Collide and
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 that will be yet another bad
00:06:19 --> 00:06:23 day indeed on the flood Side Golf is be
00:06:23 --> 00:06:24 drilled because it would increase their
00:06:25 --> 00:06:30 chances of Hall in one significantly
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 oh dear all right Rusty thanks for that
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 one you're always um throwing one out
00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 there and uh that certainly did apply in
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 this case uh our next question comes
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 from Marcel uh science currently holds
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 the belief that our universe is 13.8
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 billion years old the James web Space
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 Telescope keeps on finding older and
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 older galaxies uh some of the oldest
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55 galaxies observed I beli to have formed
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 over 300 million years after the big
00:06:58 --> 00:07:02 bang what if we find a Galaxy that is 14
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 million years old how will we begin to
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 adjust our theories to match reality
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 which theories will be first to get
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 thrown out the window versus which
00:07:11 --> 00:07:15 theories do we believe are absolutely
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 correct um can I have a shot at
00:07:18 --> 00:07:22 this yeah the um it's not going to
00:07:22 --> 00:07:24 happen that we'll find a Galaxy older
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 than the universe it actually in the
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 early days of the of The Big Bang Theory
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 that was one of of the problems uh that
00:07:30 --> 00:07:34 our measurements then uh s suggested
00:07:34 --> 00:07:36 that the the Big Bang occurred more
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 recently than the ages of the planets
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 and the stars that you know you have a
00:07:41 --> 00:07:42 universe that's younger than its
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 contents and that's clearly not a
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 possibility and it was only when we
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 really worked out just how old the
00:07:48 --> 00:07:50 universe is and our current thinking is
00:07:50 --> 00:07:54 indeed 13.8 billion years uh that um
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 that that was all rectified but the
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 bottom line is that the the yard stick
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 by which the age of galaxies is measured
00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 is basically as a fraction of the age of
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 the universe so you're never G to find a
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 Galaxy that's older older than the
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 universe because you're you're sort of
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 you know you're looking back certainly
00:08:13 --> 00:08:16 perhaps 90% 95% of the age of the
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 universe for some of these uh some of
00:08:18 --> 00:08:21 these really um primitive galaxies that
00:08:21 --> 00:08:22 we're seeing but it's never going to be
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 older than the universe because we can't
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 we Define it as a as essentially a
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 fraction of the of the universe's age so
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 that won't happen what is more
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 interesting is the suffy of this which
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 is that we do see galaxies which are in
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40 seen as the universe was as it was when
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 it was only perhaps two or 300 million
00:08:43 --> 00:08:45 years old which look more mature than we
00:08:45 --> 00:08:47 expected them to be we see black holes
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 that are bigger than we expected them to
00:08:49 --> 00:08:50 be because we thought they'd take a lot
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 longer uh to grow to their super massive
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 size so those are the conundrums uh not
00:08:56 --> 00:08:57 that we're going to find a Galaxy that's
00:08:57 --> 00:09:00 older than the universe but trying to
00:09:00 --> 00:09:02 understand how how it is that some of
00:09:02 --> 00:09:04 these phenomena that we see spiral
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 alarms for example uh occurred so
00:09:06 --> 00:09:07 quickly in the early history of the
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 Universe I suppose his point was that uh
00:09:11 --> 00:09:12 you know if we find something that's so
00:09:12 --> 00:09:16 close to when the universe began how do
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 you how do you equate for
00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 that well that's the bottom line is what
00:09:21 --> 00:09:22 what I was just saying you know it means
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 we have to revise our theories of Galaxy
00:09:25 --> 00:09:27 Evolution not that we have to throw away
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 the Big Bang which is what a lot of
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 these questions are aiming at the Big
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 Bang is absolutely secure we can still
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 see it uh we we you know we know that it
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 happened and yet we get people
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 questioning us on it Fred semi-regularly
00:09:41 --> 00:09:43 uh there are quite a few people who
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 don't believe in it well nether did uh
00:09:46 --> 00:09:49 my namesake Fred Hy he was a staunch
00:09:49 --> 00:09:50 believer in the study State Theory until
00:09:50 --> 00:09:53 he went to his grave yeah yeah what yous
00:09:53 --> 00:09:54 Johnny well there's interesting
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 parallels the other thing that comes
00:09:56 --> 00:09:58 into this is uncertainty which is we
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 never measure edge with perfect
00:10:00 --> 00:10:02 Precision there's always a bit of an
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 error bar on it and I'm reminded of the
00:10:04 --> 00:10:05 story probably about a decade ago of
00:10:06 --> 00:10:08 that sty that people du the methusa
00:10:08 --> 00:10:13 start which is HD 140283 lovely barcode
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 and that made news back in like 2013
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 because people had measured its age it's
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 an incredibly metal paw star it's one of
00:10:20 --> 00:10:21 the oldest stars in the galaxy for
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 certain but they'd measured the Age
00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 based on all these observations of it
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 and estimated an age of
00:10:27 --> 00:10:31 14.46 plus or minus is 0.8 billion years
00:10:31 --> 00:10:33 and that age is older than the edge of
00:10:33 --> 00:10:34 the universe so people were saying how
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 can we have a star older than the edge
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 of the universe and the subtlety here is
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 in the uncertainty on the measurement
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 because that plus or minus 0.8 billion
00:10:43 --> 00:10:48 years is saying that in 66% of cases
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 this is one Sigma error so 66% of the
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 time the age will fall in that age range
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 and 33% of the time it'll fall outside
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 that ede range so that age is compatible
00:10:58 --> 00:10:59 with the ede of the unit IE it's just
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 telling you that the star is very old
00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 it's not saying the star is older than
00:11:03 --> 00:11:06 the edge of the universe necessarily and
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 what's actually happen in the followup
00:11:08 --> 00:11:09 from that is a couple of more recent
00:11:09 --> 00:11:12 Studies have given it ages of 13.7 or 12
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 billion years so as we've got more data
00:11:15 --> 00:11:16 the error bar has shrunk but it's
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 noticeable that it's that age has moved
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 by more than a single error bar which is
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 not uncommon when the errors are quite
00:11:23 --> 00:11:25 large other than that it is like Fred
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 says the problem is that even if you
00:11:27 --> 00:11:29 change the edge of the universe a little
00:11:29 --> 00:11:30 bit these galaxies will still have
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 formed within the first 2% or 5% of its
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 life you're just stretching the timeline
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 or shrinking the timeline a little bit
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 um it's like what we talked about in the
00:11:40 --> 00:11:40 other
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 podcasts the way that theory and
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 observation interact is that theory is
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 the best possible explanation of what
00:11:47 --> 00:11:48 we've already seen and it predicts what
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 we should see in the future with better
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 instruments and when those better
00:11:52 --> 00:11:54 instruments Give us new measurements
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 that allows us to refine or improve or
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 disprove or kill the theory you know
00:11:58 --> 00:11:59 there's an argument you can never prove
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 a theory but you can disprove it and the
00:12:03 --> 00:12:04 more you fail to disprove it the more
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 confident we are that it's a good theory
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 and in this case it's telling us not
00:12:10 --> 00:12:11 that the Big Bang Theory is wrong it's
00:12:11 --> 00:12:12 not telling us that the Universe wasn't
00:12:13 --> 00:12:14 form that way but instead it's telling
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 us that our understanding of how stars
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 and galaxies form in those early days is
00:12:19 --> 00:12:22 incomplete and that's exactly why people
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 wanted these incredible telescopes go up
00:12:24 --> 00:12:25 there because that's the only way we can
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 find it out and I suppose we have to
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30 keep making a adjusts for the fact that
00:12:30 --> 00:12:31 we've decided all this because of two
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 kilos of mush inside
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 out yes so what a little bit of gooey
00:12:37 --> 00:12:38 carbon can
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 do it's the uh it's the 100 billion
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 neurons in it the tricky bit
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 yes uh thanks Marcel great question
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 always a good discussion point that one
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 this is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 Professor Fred Watson and Professor johy
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 hor okay we checked all four systems and
00:12:58 --> 00:13:01 With It Go face nuts and jonty we have
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 Movement we have movement I see a dog
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 with it who is coming over to say hello
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 to you yeah what's his name that's Maya
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 that's the sister we've got a brother
00:13:11 --> 00:13:12 and sister who are coming eight years
00:13:12 --> 00:13:14 old but she's the
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 most um she's heading off to see if
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 there's anything interesting happening
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 elsewhere yes yeah nothing interesting
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 happening here that's I
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25 was uh let's go to our next question
00:13:25 --> 00:13:27 this is an audio question from one of
00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 our regular contributors hello buddy
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 hello space Nets buddy from Oregon again
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 hey guys um would the center of a galaxy
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 be like the ultimate like range point
00:13:37 --> 00:13:39 like for the Galaxy um you were saying
00:13:39 --> 00:13:41 if Earth had a tunnel in it that once
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42 you got in the middle you'd be
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 weightless is that' be like a grange
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 point0 um and uh if so wouldn't that
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50 make the black hole weightless to the
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 Galaxy um and would that no point in the
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 center from the little Grange Point
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 create a u a gravitational well that
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 look like your donut that you were
00:14:01 --> 00:14:02 talking about in the Galaxy where the
00:14:02 --> 00:14:05 priation all right thanks guys of the
00:14:05 --> 00:14:07 podcast keep up the good work got a bit
00:14:07 --> 00:14:09 glitchy there at the end buddy but uh
00:14:09 --> 00:14:10 that's the internet for you thanks for
00:14:10 --> 00:14:12 the question uh the ultimate lrange
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 point would the center of the Galaxy be
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 the ultimate lrange Point who wants to
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 tackle that one first I can dive in
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 briefly if you want um so the background
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 here is that the lrange points are local
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 areas of increased ability and it comes
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 out of something called the restricted
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34 three body problem where you've got in
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36 the solar system which is where I do a
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38 lot of my work the sun and a planet and
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 something else and that something else
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 is pretty small and Tiny and you can
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 play games so when I was a kid I was in
00:14:45 --> 00:14:47 Scouts and we used to go out in the
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 countryside and we had contour maps
00:14:50 --> 00:14:51 which were maps of the local area that
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 had these lines on and they told you how
00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 high or how low you were yeah and what
00:14:55 --> 00:14:56 those Contour are actually is telling
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 you what your gravitational potential
00:14:58 --> 00:14:59 energy it's a measure of the
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 gravitational
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 potential you can do the same with the
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04 solar system you can make a map of the
00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 solar system that is like a contour map
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09 and when you do that you find the sun's
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 a big well in the middle and the Earth's
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 a small and M where the Earth is but
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 there are five locations where you have
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 local plateaus local flat bits and
00:15:18 --> 00:15:20 they're your LR points and they're more
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 realistically LR areas and three of them
00:15:24 --> 00:15:26 are like Sables on a hillside so they're
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 fairly stable but if you roll a little
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 way you'll fall off and that's lrange 1
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 2 and three and they're on the line
00:15:32 --> 00:15:34 between the Sun and the Earth one is on
00:15:34 --> 00:15:37 the far side of the sun one is between
00:15:37 --> 00:15:38 the Earth and the Sun and one is just on
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 the far side of the Earth on that line
00:15:40 --> 00:15:42 the other two the Gran points four and
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 five which are like these big plateaus
00:15:45 --> 00:15:46 that are 60 degrees ahead and behind the
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 Earth in its orbit or behind Jupiter in
00:15:48 --> 00:15:49 its orbit that's where you get the
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 Jupiter Trojans and so these are points
00:15:53 --> 00:15:54 where the Contours are flatter so you
00:15:54 --> 00:15:56 can sit there fairly stable before you
00:15:56 --> 00:15:57 roll off in any given
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 Direction the middle of the Sun in that
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 analogy isn't a lrange point if that's a
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 slightly different concept so you are
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 entirely right that if you're in the
00:16:07 --> 00:16:08 middle of an object you don't feel any
00:16:09 --> 00:16:11 gravitational pull from that object more
00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 strictly you feel the gravitational pull
00:16:13 --> 00:16:15 from every atom individually but they
00:16:15 --> 00:16:16 all cancel out so if you're in the
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 middle of the Earth you're being pulled
00:16:18 --> 00:16:21 by people stood in America the same
00:16:21 --> 00:16:22 amount as you are by people stood in
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 Australia but they're pulling in
00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 opposite direction so it all cancels out
00:16:26 --> 00:16:27 so if you were in the middle of the
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 black hole um and ignoring all the other
00:16:30 --> 00:16:32 issues that would entail you wouldn't
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34 feel the gravitational pull of the black
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 hole and if that was exactly at the
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 center of the Galaxy all the matter in
00:16:39 --> 00:16:40 the Galaxy would cancel out but you'd
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 still feel the pull from things locally
00:16:43 --> 00:16:44 so if you were in the middle of the
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 Earth and you were massless from the
00:16:46 --> 00:16:47 point of view of the earth you'd still
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 feel the pull from the Moon in One
00:16:49 --> 00:16:50 Direction and the sun in the other
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 direction you'd still feel all those
00:16:52 --> 00:16:53 things so you would be still being
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 pulled around and I dare say that you'd
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 probably be pulled slightly off center
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 if you could move around around and then
00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 youd start to feel the pull from the
00:17:01 --> 00:17:02 gravitation of the black hole pulling
00:17:02 --> 00:17:03 you back towards the middle and the
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 further out you go the more pull you
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 feel cuz you only feel the pull from the
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 stuff that is interior to you everything
00:17:11 --> 00:17:12 and this used to make my head hurt when
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 we did electromagnetism at Uni and
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 trying to get your head around this
00:17:17 --> 00:17:18 everything more distant from the middle
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 than you are cancels out with everything
00:17:21 --> 00:17:23 else everything nearer to the middle you
00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 feel added up as though it's pulling
00:17:25 --> 00:17:28 from the center so technically it
00:17:28 --> 00:17:29 wouldn't be able to Grant point because
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 it's not one of those plateaus it's the
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 bottom of a well instead but it would be
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 a place where you would effectively be
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 weightless massless well weightless
00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 rather than massless as a technical
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 thing you still have mass but there'd be
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 nothing pulling on you so you wouldn't
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 have weight um but it wouldn't count as
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 a LR point from my point of view until
00:17:49 --> 00:17:50 you turned into
00:17:50 --> 00:17:52 spaghetti you perceive would be the same
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 thing and it will probably be a lot of
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 pain as you become spaghettified yes as
00:17:56 --> 00:17:59 you go to get there to get there that's
00:17:59 --> 00:18:04 right so that absolutely jont um so I
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 think that means the um the answer to
00:18:06 --> 00:18:11 the question is is just yes uh except we
00:18:11 --> 00:18:13 don't consider you know the center of
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 things as being a LR point it's the LR
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 points are quite specific or areas is a
00:18:19 --> 00:18:20 much better term for them because
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22 they're you know we think of them as a
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24 an individual point in space but they're
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 not they're far from it that's why for
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 example the L2 point in the earth's gr
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 system it can be occupied by many
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 spacecraft at once which it is yes and
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 and it's not like Dead Steel the the the
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 spacecraft have to adjust to the motion
00:18:41 --> 00:18:42 and that's CA they're starting to roll
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 off the saddle so these Halo orbits that
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 they move around are actually rolling
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 around the saddle essentially along a
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 line of constant height like one of
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 those Contours on your contour map but
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 it's very easy to roll off so that's why
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 you burn fuel to stay on location
00:18:58 --> 00:19:00 because with the AL in particular if you
00:19:00 --> 00:19:01 fall off you'll eventually fall off
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 properly CU you've been pulled by
00:19:02 --> 00:19:04 everything else yeah and land in a pile
00:19:04 --> 00:19:06 of dirt which is what happened when I
00:19:06 --> 00:19:07 rolled off the saddle once but it was
00:19:07 --> 00:19:10 like go there um I was not injured I
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 wasn't not injured you're very lucky
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 most people do get
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 injured uh thank you buddy so um yeah as
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20 always I love the way buddy thinks he
00:19:21 --> 00:19:22 comes up with these Amazing Ideas I
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 don't know where he uh his brain is
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 obviously going at 10 mil hour all
00:19:27 --> 00:19:28 the time he comes up with some some
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 interesting questions our last question
00:19:31 --> 00:19:33 today comes from Michael in Evanston
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 Illinois gentlemen greetings uh
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 regarding the expansion of the universe
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 it is my understanding that an
00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 accelerating expansion means that
00:19:42 --> 00:19:43 everything in the universe is moving
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 apart faster and faster this means that
00:19:46 --> 00:19:48 eventually nothing will be visible from
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 anywhere else does this mean that the
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 planets in our solar system are moving
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 apart and that our moon is moving apart
00:19:56 --> 00:20:00 from Earth due to the universe's expans
00:20:00 --> 00:20:01 uh not withstanding what we talked about
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 in the last episode regarding a new
00:20:04 --> 00:20:06 theory about the expansion of the
00:20:06 --> 00:20:09 universe and dark matter uh let's stick
00:20:09 --> 00:20:10 with the model that we all agree on at
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 the moment and look he's right it is
00:20:13 --> 00:20:16 expanding everything's moving apart but
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 there are other factors in play aren't
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 they afid indeed it's gravity that
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 dominates on the scale of the solar
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 system uh we can't feel the expansion of
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 the Universe on the scale of the solar
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 system it's to small gravity is the
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 overwhelmingly important Force it's only
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 when you get out to you know you start
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 looking at objects which are perhaps
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 more than 10 20 million light years away
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 before you start seeing that expansion
00:20:42 --> 00:20:44 never mind the accelerated expansion and
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 even if the accelerated expansion does
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 continue uh until we get the Big Rip
00:20:50 --> 00:20:51 which is what some people think might
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53 happen uh it's going to be a long time
00:20:54 --> 00:20:55 before the distance from the Earth to
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 the Moon is affected by that particular
00:20:58 --> 00:20:59 geometry
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 uh gravity is the force what I've never
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 had clarified for me and there's all
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 these kind of things is where that
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09 boundary comes so there is other the
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 local scale of the scale of the Milky
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 Way even gravity WIS so the Milky Way
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 gets held together the local cluster
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17 should get held together as well but I
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 don't know where the threshold is where
00:21:19 --> 00:21:20 it doesn't because the local cluster is
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 part of a bigger cluster which is part
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 of a super cluster and at some point you
00:21:25 --> 00:21:28 have this boundary where expansion wins
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 but if it it has to be link to that
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 cluster structure so it can't be halfway
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 across the super cluster because
00:21:35 --> 00:21:36 something halfway across the
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 supercluster is still attracted to its
00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 neighbors so it comes down to the voids
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 and everything else and nobody's been
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 able to give a definitive essentially
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 Horizon where things will stay closer to
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 us or where things will move away so I
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51 guess we just don't know that yet we've
00:21:52 --> 00:21:53 not we don't have a deep enough
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55 foundational enough knowledge of the
00:21:55 --> 00:21:56 structure of matter on that kind of
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 Scale near us to know but I think the
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 eventual Horizon is of that kind of
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 scale of the Virgo cluster will still be
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 just about there but the more distant
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07 structure what I don't know where that
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 threshold is it's probably a very Wiggly
00:22:10 --> 00:22:11 one because it's going to follow the you
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 know the inh aacy of what we see around
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 us in in our local part of the Universe
00:22:18 --> 00:22:21 um it's uh yeah it's a it's a good point
00:22:21 --> 00:22:24 that you know we can't say well beyond
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 you 50 million light years you're going
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 to see the expansion dominating uh
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30 because it it will depend exactly on the
00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 on the presence I mean um it throws back
00:22:34 --> 00:22:37 to one of the Hot Topics 20 years ago
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39 which was the great ATT tractor uh the
00:22:39 --> 00:22:40 great ATT tractor being this thing
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 hidden behind the Milky Way That We
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45 Believe now is a part of a of a super
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 cluster of galaxies uh that seem to be
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49 pulling everything towards it but it's
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 only in one particular direction uh so
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 so you've got that kind of thing going
00:22:54 --> 00:22:56 on all around us uh and at different
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 distances so you yes it would be a a
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 wiggly you know thinking back to those
00:23:01 --> 00:23:02 Contours you were talking about a minute
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 ago jonty it's a it's a contour but it's
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 a very Wiggly one I
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 think Heritage of this as well I I
00:23:10 --> 00:23:11 always love these things where we detect
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 something indirectly because that's what
00:23:13 --> 00:23:14 we do with Exel planets now it's how
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 Neptune was found yeah so we've got
00:23:17 --> 00:23:20 several hundred years of inferring that
00:23:20 --> 00:23:22 something exists when we can't see it
00:23:22 --> 00:23:23 because it's effect on something else
00:23:23 --> 00:23:25 and the great attractor is just another
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 in a long list of we can't see it but we
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29 know it's there we see what it does to
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31 everything
00:23:31 --> 00:23:35 else I do yeah yeah the great you got
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 You' Ena me to revive and a really old
00:23:37 --> 00:23:39 dad joke but the great attractor is the
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 Massie Ferguson because my uncle used to
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 work for that company but right off John
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 de um and and as far as expansion's
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 concerned expansion wins when you eat
00:23:49 --> 00:23:51 too many
00:23:51 --> 00:23:54 donuts it's speeding me too much
00:23:54 --> 00:23:55 information to work with well that's
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 this is why I'm gradually resembling
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 Patrick more more more because I growing
00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 vertically when I was 13 and I've just
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 been spamming horizontally ever since
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 yeah just don't don't um espouse his
00:24:05 --> 00:24:09 politics that's all JY oh no absolutely
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 not I lean so far left I'm horizontal
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 like
00:24:14 --> 00:24:20 many 3 2 one Space Nuts Andrew I was
00:24:20 --> 00:24:24 going to say you know this is a Q&A uh
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 session uh can I throw in a question for
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 J for it you you questions for because
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 I'm not um I'm not going to be around
00:24:31 --> 00:24:34 for the next episode so I just want to
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 know what jonty's take on planet N9 is
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 oh yes um it it really interesting so
00:24:40 --> 00:24:41 the first paper I ever published back
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 when I was doing my PhD was debunking
00:24:45 --> 00:24:47 one of the many variants of Planet X and
00:24:47 --> 00:24:49 this is a recurring theme that comes up
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 about every 15 or 20 years when we get
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 better data on things that are pushing
00:24:53 --> 00:24:54 the limits of our understanding of the
00:24:54 --> 00:24:57 solar system so in the early 1980s you
00:24:57 --> 00:25:00 had is which was Richard Muller's
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 hypothesis of a brown dwarf or a red
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 dwarf orbiting the Sun on a 26 million
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 year Orbin that was giving us comets
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 killing caat extinctions and that even
00:25:12 --> 00:25:13 though it sums down now at the time it
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 was a reasonable possibility as an
00:25:16 --> 00:25:17 explanation of the data that made a
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 prediction which was if it's there
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21 you'll see it and then we didn't see it
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 we got good enough satellites to do it
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 um so that died away and then back when
00:25:25 --> 00:25:29 I started my PhD in 2000 there was a
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 regurgitation of the idea in this case
00:25:32 --> 00:25:34 being Planet X because Pluto at that
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 point hadn't yet rightfully been demoted
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 so people still counted it with a
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 Grimace um but looking at the data of
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 where comets come in towards the Sun
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 from so not their per helium which is
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 where their closest Sun but where on the
00:25:48 --> 00:25:50 sky their up helion would be their
00:25:50 --> 00:25:51 furthest from the Sun there were
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54 suggestions that there was a bit of an
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 enhancement of comets coming from a
00:25:56 --> 00:25:57 great circle on the sky so one
00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 particular ring 360 gr around the sky
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03 had more comets than any other and there
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 were two papers identifying this um The
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07 Twist was that both of them had great
00:26:07 --> 00:26:08 circles that were at right angles to
00:26:08 --> 00:26:12 each other and that didn't agree um so
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 the first thing I did in my PhD was look
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16 at all this and say well hang on our
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17 discoveries of comets are biased by the
00:26:17 --> 00:26:19 fact that we see them when they're near
00:26:19 --> 00:26:21 the sun we see them at certain months we
00:26:21 --> 00:26:23 see them from the northern hemisphere is
00:26:23 --> 00:26:24 where that all these different biases he
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26 put them in and both great circles
00:26:26 --> 00:26:29 disappear so it was actually a result of
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 our observational biases and so that one
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 went away as we got more data and then
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35 what's happened over the last decade or
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 so is that our ability to find small
00:26:38 --> 00:26:40 objects in the out Sol system has got
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 better and better so we're starting to
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 find things out beyond the kind of n
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 nominal edge of the edge with ker belt
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 Beyond about 50 Au and these are objects
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 that are far enough aare that the
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 influence of the planets isn't enough to
00:26:55 --> 00:26:59 modify their orbits in any real sense
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 but there has been a set of detections
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 of objects further out that a bit like
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 that great circle appear to be more
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 likely to be found in one part of the
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 sky than anywhere else now one
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 explanation for that is that there is
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14 something that we haven't seen that's
00:27:14 --> 00:27:16 further out that is stirring them up and
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 has coralled them and that works really
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 well to explain what we see another
00:27:21 --> 00:27:23 explanation is that this is an artifact
00:27:23 --> 00:27:25 of the observational bias because the
00:27:25 --> 00:27:26 survey is primarily done by the Canada
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 France Hawaii telescope
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 which sees Northern Hemisphere Sky by
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34 preference to Southern hemisphere has a
00:27:34 --> 00:27:36 varying cycle of cloudiness through the
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 year it's harder to find these things
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 where the Milky Way is so there are some
00:27:40 --> 00:27:41 people arguing that this will turn out
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 to be an observational bias you've also
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 got a few different versions of Planet X
00:27:48 --> 00:27:50 being proposed so the most famous one is
00:27:50 --> 00:27:51 the one that gets talked about a lot
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 which is Ban and people like that
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 talking about a fairly massive Planet X
00:27:56 --> 00:27:57 but a really good friend of mine who
00:27:57 --> 00:27:59 actually visited me unq a couple of
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 months ago Patrick Saia Leafa from Japan
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 there's been quietly running simulations
00:28:04 --> 00:28:08 looking at an earth Mass object which
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10 would work from the point of view of our
00:28:10 --> 00:28:11 understanding of the formation of the
00:28:11 --> 00:28:12 giant planets you would have formed a
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14 lot of objects that size that were then
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 ejected that weren't Incorporated some
00:28:17 --> 00:28:18 of which will have been ejected but not
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21 fully ejected so you could have Earth
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 sized objects in the alt Cloud quite
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 reasonably and he's been looking at the
00:28:25 --> 00:28:27 distributions of all these things Beyond
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29 Neptune if you had something the mass of
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 the Earth two or three or 400 Au away
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 that we couldn't conly detect but we'll
00:28:34 --> 00:28:35 be able to find in the next five or 10
00:28:35 --> 00:28:39 years and that does a really good job of
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 explaining the groups of objects we
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43 can't currently explain doesn't mean
00:28:43 --> 00:28:45 it's right what it's doing is saying
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47 here is something we can't explain
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 observationally here's a couple of
00:28:49 --> 00:28:51 different teams proposing hypotheses
00:28:51 --> 00:28:53 that do were really good job of fitting
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 the data and explaining what we
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 otherwise can't do and they then make a
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 prediction in both cases which is as
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 Vera Rubin comes online this incredible
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 new Observatory there going to increase
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 the number of objects We Know by a
00:29:05 --> 00:29:07 factor of 10 to 100 times in the solar
00:29:07 --> 00:29:09 system we'll certainly have a lot more
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 data and if these theories are correct
00:29:12 --> 00:29:15 these data will support them if not
00:29:15 --> 00:29:17 they'll shoot them down now I think
00:29:17 --> 00:29:20 given the past history of Nemesis and
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 Planet X people are understandably very
00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 skeptical but it's very good science
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 been done by really reputable scientists
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29 who are not saying this is definitely
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 there they're saying here's something we
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 cannot explain here is one way of
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 explaining it that works really well and
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38 fits with the observational contraints
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40 we currently have it the truth could be
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 out there you know it's kind of xal
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 thing but we won't know until we get
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 more data when that data comes in this
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 is what we should look for and that's
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51 really important because if you do some
00:29:51 --> 00:29:53 modeling and and some solar system
00:29:53 --> 00:29:54 groups have done this in the past with
00:29:54 --> 00:29:57 very famous models that explain very
00:29:57 --> 00:29:59 well what we currently see but nothing
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 else they don't make predictions of what
00:30:02 --> 00:30:04 we don't currently see then that to me
00:30:04 --> 00:30:05 stamp collecting it's not actually
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 science because there's an infinite
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 number of ways of explaining what we
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 currently see and what both these models
00:30:11 --> 00:30:12 are doing really well is they're
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13 explaining what we currently see but
00:30:13 --> 00:30:15 also predicting what we will find in the
00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 future if their model is correct and if
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 their model is not correct so they're
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 testable hypotheses and that's really
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 important because that sh how we do our
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 future science what we look for so I
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 find it really exciting I'm you know
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 really Keen to see what happens with the
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34 very situations on planet 9 over the
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 coming decades and it if it dies down
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 I'm sure that in 20 30 years when we get
00:30:39 --> 00:30:41 the next generation of next generation
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 of next generation of telescopes the
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45 idea might come up again because we're
00:30:45 --> 00:30:47 looking at this ever growing Circle of
00:30:47 --> 00:30:48 Knowledge around the soul system but
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51 it's not that big yet so the the five
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 minutes You' to spend on that could have
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 been answered with a maybe with a maybe
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 but I think it's it's important to
00:30:59 --> 00:31:00 clarify that this is good science
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02 because it does sometimes get passed off
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 as a bit of a joke because it's a past
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06 history of things falling flat and those
00:31:06 --> 00:31:08 things that fell flat were also very
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 good science it's just this is the way
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 science gets done and it runs counter to
00:31:14 --> 00:31:15 the opinion that a lot of people get
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17 when they come out of school because of
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 the challenges of the curriculum that
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21 science is fapped and is science sealed
00:31:21 --> 00:31:22 and delivered and it's one of the
00:31:22 --> 00:31:24 problems we've seen with accepting that
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 cigarettes cause cancer accepting that
00:31:26 --> 00:31:28 climate change is an issue
00:31:28 --> 00:31:31 is that people get taught that science
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33 is signed and sealed and delivered and
00:31:33 --> 00:31:35 then when things change like Pluto is
00:31:35 --> 00:31:37 demoted that feels like a betrayal it
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39 feels like you've been lied to that
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 somehow things nefarious are going on
00:31:43 --> 00:31:46 and it makes it much harder then to get
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49 changes in our understanding through and
00:31:49 --> 00:31:50 so it's really important to stress that
00:31:50 --> 00:31:51 this is how science works and this is
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 really good science no fair point great
00:31:54 --> 00:31:58 Point very good very good um jents
00:31:58 --> 00:31:59 that's where we're going to have to
00:31:59 --> 00:32:02 finish up uh thank you so very much
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 Professor Fred Watson and and enjoy your
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 travels and we will catch up with you uh
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 round like February botle look of it
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 rounds like it y thank you Andrew thank
00:32:11 --> 00:32:13 you jont T and I look forward to um
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 listening to Space Nuts podcast without
00:32:16 --> 00:32:17 being on
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20 it that would be rare yeah that's just
00:32:20 --> 00:32:24 plenty of thought okay yes please do and
00:32:24 --> 00:32:26 uh Professor Johny Horner thank you for
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 being a part of uh space Q&A today as
00:32:29 --> 00:32:31 well we'll catch you on the next episode
00:32:31 --> 00:32:33 it's a pleasure thank you for having me
00:32:33 --> 00:32:35 and thanks to H in the studio who
00:32:35 --> 00:32:37 couldn't really do much because he was
00:32:37 --> 00:32:39 caught in the ultimate lrange point and
00:32:39 --> 00:32:41 from me Andrew Dunley oh don't forget to
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 send us your questions via our website
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 Space Nuts podcast.com SPAC nuts.i get
00:32:46 --> 00:32:47 your questions in we'll get to them as
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 soon as we possibly can uh so from me
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 Andrew Dunley thanks to your company see
00:32:52 --> 00:32:53 you again on the next episode of Space
00:32:53 --> 00:32:56 Nuts bye-bye Space Nuts you'll be
00:32:56 --> 00:32:59 listening to the space face nuts
00:32:59 --> 00:33:02 podcast available at Apple podcasts
00:33:02 --> 00:33:05 Spotify ihart radio or your favorite
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 podcast player you can also stream on
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 demand at bites.com this has been
00:33:10 --> 00:33:13 another quality podcast production from
00:33:13 --> 00:33:16 bites.com