00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Hello again. Thank you for joining us.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 This is Space Nuts, where we talk
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09 astronomy and space science. My name is
00:00:09 --> 00:00:10 Andrew Dunley. Great to have your
00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 company. Well, you've probably been
00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 listening to Jonty for the last few
00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 weeks with Fred overseas, gallivanting
00:00:18 --> 00:00:22 as he does. He loves to gallivant. And
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 he's back. And what we're going to talk
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 about today, uh, all sorts of things.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 The Blue Origin blowout. You've probably
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 seen the footage. Wow. Uh, primordial
00:00:31 --> 00:00:33 black holes, gravitational micro
00:00:33 --> 00:00:36 lensing, and is dark matter a fury.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:38 We'll deal with all of that today on
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 Space Nuts.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9g
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 Ignition sequence start.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:47 >> Space nuts.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:52 >> 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1
00:00:52 --> 00:00:53 >> Space Nuts.
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 >> And he's back. and he's looking well.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 It's Professor Fred Watson, astronomer
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 at large. Hello, Fred.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04 >> Hello, Andrew. You're looking well, too.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:05 It's nice to see you.
00:01:05 --> 00:01:07 >> Yeah, it's good to see you, too. I mean,
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 it's been a while for both of us
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 because, uh, we had to do a lot of
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 catchup episodes, but we didn't quite
00:01:14 --> 00:01:16 have enough time to cover everything, so
00:01:16 --> 00:01:17 we brought Jonty in.
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 >> Uh, but he and I had to do catchup
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 episodes to cover an absence of mine.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:26 So, um I haven't actually recorded with
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28 you for quite a while.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 >> Yes. Yeah. Must be a couple of months or
00:01:30 --> 00:01:30 so.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 >> Yeah, it would be. But it doesn't sound
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 like that to the audience. Really?
00:01:34 --> 00:01:35 >> No, probably not.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:39 >> Yes. It's all witchery.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:41 >> Well, we Yeah, I think so. I think so.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 Yeah, there's at least two or three of
00:01:42 --> 00:01:43 them.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:44 >> Yeah. Okay, good.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:47 >> So, where did where did you go? You you
00:01:47 --> 00:01:48 were all over the place.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 >> Uh yes. So it was uh a conference in
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 Germany that took me up to Europe and
00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 that that actually wasn't really
00:01:56 --> 00:01:59 interesting um because in fact I was
00:01:59 --> 00:02:01 going to Scotland before that. I had a
00:02:01 --> 00:02:03 week with my daughters in Scotland and
00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 then off to Germany. But the trip there
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 of course um we can't fly through the
00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 Middle East at the moment because of the
00:02:10 --> 00:02:15 war going on there. And so my flight via
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 via Dubai, they were long cancelled, but
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 Marley managed to pull me a flight up to
00:02:20 --> 00:02:24 Seoul in Korea. And then on thin air
00:02:24 --> 00:02:27 from Soul over the North Pole, and I've
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 actually got a certificate to prove that
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 I've been over the North Pole. It's over
00:02:32 --> 00:02:34 there. I can't go and grab it, but
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 >> uh and then into into Helsinki, and then
00:02:36 --> 00:02:40 yes, it was cold. Then then um uh across
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 to Edinburgh. So the the polar flight
00:02:42 --> 00:02:43 was really interesting because we
00:02:43 --> 00:02:47 started off in Seoul in Korea uh and
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 then you know took off uh with with Vin
00:02:50 --> 00:02:53 Air and I expected us to head towards
00:02:53 --> 00:02:56 the towards the west cuz that's what you
00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 do. Uh but no, we headed to the east.
00:02:59 --> 00:02:59 Wow.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 >> And we actually went up between Russia
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 and America. So up the Bearing Straight.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:07 Wow.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:09 >> So, it went far enough east that you
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 could turn north right up the bearing
00:03:11 --> 00:03:12 straight. So, you got Russia on one
00:03:12 --> 00:03:14 side, America on the other, and then
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 over the North Pole uh with with a
00:03:17 --> 00:03:19 little Polar certificate to prove it.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 Nice touchdown in Helsinki. Yeah.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 >> Uh an hour or so there, then a nice
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 flight over to Edinburgh. And there was
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 with my daughter directly. It was great.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 >> Yeah. Fantastic. Um I've got an Arctic
00:03:31 --> 00:03:33 Circle certificate, I think.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:34 >> Yes, you will have. Yeah, I've got one
00:03:34 --> 00:03:35 of those as well, a North Cape
00:03:35 --> 00:03:36 certificate, in fact.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 >> Oh, yeah.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:40 >> Yeah. Um, but the conference I went to
00:03:40 --> 00:03:43 in Germany, uh, was, um, it was the 60th
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 birthday conference of a colleague with
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 whom I've worked very closely, uh, on
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 the rave survey, which we've talked
00:03:50 --> 00:03:51 about before, the radio velocity
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 experiment. Uh, Matias Steinmet's hair,
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 Dr. Professor Matias Steinmets, uh, very
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 senior German astronomer now. He, uh,
00:04:00 --> 00:04:01 led the project. I was the project
00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 manager. So we worked very closely
00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 together with a team of people most of
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 whom were at the conference to celebrate
00:04:07 --> 00:04:10 his 60th birthday. So I was the sole
00:04:10 --> 00:04:12 Australian representative so they made a
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 bit of a fuss of me which was nice. Uh I
00:04:14 --> 00:04:17 got the the kickoff talk and uh and they
00:04:17 --> 00:04:19 they looked after me. Uh so it was very
00:04:19 --> 00:04:21 very good and I I picked up a lot of
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 what's happening currently in the field
00:04:24 --> 00:04:25 of science that we're doing. Well we
00:04:25 --> 00:04:26 might mention some of that a bit later
00:04:26 --> 00:04:27 on in the show.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:30 >> Sounds good. Uh my trip uh was a little
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 closer to home, only a 9-hour flight
00:04:32 --> 00:04:35 away. We went to uh Vietnam for two and
00:04:35 --> 00:04:37 a half weeks. And uh people jokingly
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 said to me, "Don't mention the war." But
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 don't mention the war. M
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 >> it's uh it's still very sensitive
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 subject and and imagine
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 >> what blew my mind and this will be of
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 interest to um I suppose American
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 listeners because of America's
00:04:53 --> 00:04:55 involvement in the Vietnam War but um
00:04:55 --> 00:04:57 there is still strong division between
00:04:58 --> 00:04:59 North and South
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 >> and it hasn't been forgotten even 50
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 years after it ended there's still very
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 much focused on the aftermath of of that
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 conflict
00:05:11 --> 00:05:12 >> I suppose just because it had it was
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 such a defining time in their history.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 And uh I mean the Vietnam War was only a
00:05:17 --> 00:05:18 part of what they dealt with. They
00:05:18 --> 00:05:21 they'd been dealing with colonialism
00:05:21 --> 00:05:25 prior to that from France for for
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 decades and decades.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 >> Uh so it's quite extraordinary. There
00:05:30 --> 00:05:34 was a a great uh documentary series I
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 think it was on SPS in Australia called
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 The Birth of a Nation. And uh one of our
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 guides actually mentioned it and said,
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 "We'd love to see it over here, but
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 we're not allowed."
00:05:45 --> 00:05:46 >> Oh, interesting.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 >> So, I watched it and um I'm going to try
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 and figure out how to get it to him, but
00:05:50 --> 00:05:52 I don't know. I don't know.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:52 >> We'll see.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:56 >> You could get You could run a foul of uh
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 diplomatic nicities if you tried that.
00:05:58 --> 00:05:59 Who knows?
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 >> Could do. Could do. Anyway,
00:06:01 --> 00:06:02 >> especially if you talk about it on a
00:06:02 --> 00:06:03 public podcast.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 >> Yeah, maybe like you are doing now. Am
00:06:07 --> 00:06:08 I?
00:06:08 --> 00:06:09 >> They're probably not allowed to watch
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 this over in Vietnam either.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 >> Maybe not. Maybe not.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:14 >> It was funny though cuz I was posting
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 posting uh some little videos. I like
00:06:17 --> 00:06:18 like to do little videos while I'm away
00:06:18 --> 00:06:20 and I was posting them on Tik Tok. I
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 picked up 140 Vietnamese followers.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 >> Oh, that's fantastic.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:27 >> Yeah, I thought it was cool.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:29 >> There you go. That at least I can watch
00:06:29 --> 00:06:30 your Tik Tok stuff.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh particularly the one I
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 did at uh Harong Bay. It's beautiful
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 part of the world. And I only did a
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 60-second sort of 360 degree scan of the
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 the place. But uh for some reason that
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 video's gone nuts. It's uh at last count
00:06:45 --> 00:06:48 had 14 and a half thousand views.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:49 >> Whoa.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 >> I don't understand it, but uh yeah, that
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 was nice.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:55 >> And we did all the other stuff. Train
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 Street, you know, where the train runs
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 next to the cafes in in um
00:06:59 --> 00:07:01 >> No, I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. It's very
00:07:01 --> 00:07:01 popular.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:03 >> Somewhere I should go.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 >> Yeah. uh up in Hanoi and uh many other
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 places. I won't I won't bore people to
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 tears with it. We got to get down to
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 business. Uh our first topic, Fred, is
00:07:12 --> 00:07:16 very explosive. This is the um the the
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 Blue Origin not launch that happened the
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 other day. Uh in fact, I don't even
00:07:21 --> 00:07:23 think it got an inch off the ground
00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 before it went up in a beautiful um
00:07:26 --> 00:07:27 nuclear plume.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 >> It was very like a nuclear plume. And
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 no, it wasn't actually meant to get off
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 the ground. This was a fire test. So it
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 was fired. All right.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 >> Yeah, it did. Uh it was um um Yes.
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 Basically testing out the engines for
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 for a launch that was forthcoming that
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 was going to take a whole lot of sat uh
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 telecommunication satellites
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 uh up uh into orbit. Uh they were
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 fortunately not on the rocket. Um I
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 think there were uh the Amazon Leo uh
00:07:59 --> 00:08:01 satellites which is the what used to be
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 called Kiper uh and is perhaps the
00:08:04 --> 00:08:07 principal com competitor potentially to
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 Starink. Um uh anyway the satellites
00:08:10 --> 00:08:15 were not on the on the booster uh and uh
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 it's basically was to test fire it seven
00:08:19 --> 00:08:21 engines. This is the new Glenn booster
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 which is Blue Origin's heavy lift
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 booster. It's not as heavy lift as the
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 SpaceX uh super heavy uh booster that
00:08:31 --> 00:08:32 takes the Starship up.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 >> It's not lifting anything now, is it?
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 >> Uh it's not. No. And uh what's it it's
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 got sort of serious ramifications
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43 because not only did they blow up the
00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 rocket, they also blew up the launch
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 pad. Uh effectively there's a lot of
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 damage uh to the launchpad which is if I
00:08:51 --> 00:08:53 remember right, it is at Cape Canaveral.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:57 >> Yeah, I think so. Uh and um that uh
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 explosion has caused damage that people
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 are now talking about several months if
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 not a year or so to repair. Uh and
00:09:06 --> 00:09:07 that's bad because that's the only
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 facility in the world that can launch
00:09:09 --> 00:09:11 the new Glenn booster.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:13 >> And the new Glen booster is needed for
00:09:13 --> 00:09:17 the Arteimus program. Uh uh in
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 particular uh later this year there was
00:09:20 --> 00:09:24 supposed to be a test launch of the
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 their Blue Moon lander. This is Blue
00:09:27 --> 00:09:31 Origins Luna lander um which is the uh
00:09:31 --> 00:09:35 the um basically uh the competition if I
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 can put it that way with the SpaceX
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 Starship. So NASA contracted both SpaceX
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 and Blue Origin to develop a lander,
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 Luna lander for the moon. SP X has
00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 theirs based on the Starship. Um this
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 what is it 4 to 50 m tall? It's
00:09:53 --> 00:09:54 colossal.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 >> Uh to land that on a rough surface on
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 the moon, I'm not sure I'd be that keen
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 on that, but never mind. uh the uh the
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 Blue Origin version, the Blue uh Blue
00:10:06 --> 00:10:08 Moon as it's called. Uh that is only
00:10:08 --> 00:10:12 eight stories high. Uh so it's it's uh
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 shorter. Uh but these two are both in
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 the running to land the first astronauts
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 on the lunar surface in 2028. Yeah. Uh
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 so um there was going to be a test of uh
00:10:23 --> 00:10:27 the the U New Glenn heavy lifter lifting
00:10:27 --> 00:10:32 up a blue moon um landing vehicle uh a
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 prototype landing vehicle uh into into
00:10:35 --> 00:10:36 orbit and actually to touch it down on
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 the moon and that was supposed to happen
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 this year. That's clearly off the agenda
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 now. Yeah. Uh and so um it's not going
00:10:43 --> 00:10:44 to happen. Actually, it's a little bit
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 sad because I've just read today that
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 that Luna lander um which of course
00:10:50 --> 00:10:51 wasn't on board the rocket when it
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 exploded has just passed with flying
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 colors its environmental test. There's
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 an environmental test that everything
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 goes through. is in a huge vacuum
00:11:00 --> 00:11:04 chamber um which is a NASA facility
00:11:04 --> 00:11:08 uh and you can you can change the uh the
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 temperature to match those huge extremes
00:11:11 --> 00:11:12 of temperature that you would get on the
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 moon. Uh so there the their prototype
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 lunar lander the blue moon mark1 which
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 is called endurance which is a great
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 name because that's not what's happened
00:11:23 --> 00:11:25 to the booster but endurance has passed
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 with flying colors. Sadly, at the
00:11:27 --> 00:11:28 moment, there's nothing to take it into
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 space. So, we'll have to see how that
00:11:31 --> 00:11:31 evolves.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:35 >> Yeah, I think you you and I spoke about
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 NASA looking at other options other than
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 SpaceX um not long before you you went
00:11:40 --> 00:11:45 away and um and and now this is kind of,
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 >> for one of a better term, blown up in
00:11:47 --> 00:11:49 Blue Origin's face because that takes
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 them off the table, doesn't it? Uh it
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 seems to for a while unless they can do
00:11:54 --> 00:11:58 some very rapid repairs to the launch
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 vehic uh the sorry the launch site
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 >> uh the launch facility. So yeah it could
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 push back. So the idea was that late
00:12:06 --> 00:12:09 next year uh there would be the Optimus
00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 3 flight which would consist of these
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 two potential lunar landing vehicles. Um
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 the Starship on Space X's side, the Blue
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 Moon on Blue Origin side. They were both
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 going to be launched into Earth orbit uh
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 to have um rendevous tests uh to
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 demonstrate that their viability. Uh
00:12:29 --> 00:12:32 when you link them to the space launch
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 system, the the basically the Orion
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 spacecraft, which is what took the
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 Arteimus 2 astronauts around the moon,
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 that will take Artemis 3, beg you
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 pardon, Otimus 4 astronauts to the moon,
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 but to land they've got to transfer into
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 another spacecraft and land on the lunar
00:12:48 --> 00:12:52 surface. So all that I think is being
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 thrown into question uh with this
00:12:54 --> 00:12:56 explosion. We will wait to see. It's
00:12:56 --> 00:12:57 still too early. We don't even know what
00:12:58 --> 00:13:01 caused it yet. Uh it's it was only uh
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 less than a week ago as we as we speak.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 Uh it was so we don't actually know what
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 the consequences are likely to be, but
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 they could be quite serious for the
00:13:12 --> 00:13:13 Otimus program.
00:13:13 --> 00:13:16 >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, uh, I think Elon Musk
00:13:16 --> 00:13:19 calls these things, um, successful
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 failures. I I don't know.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 >> A rapid unscheduled disintegration.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:26 >> Yes. I don't know what Jeff Bezos calls
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 them, but um,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:30 >> yeah, hopefully they can get down to the
00:13:30 --> 00:13:32 bottom of it, but it Yeah, it does throw
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 a spanner into the works. Maybe it was a
00:13:34 --> 00:13:35 spanner thrown into the works that
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 caused the explosion. Who who knows? The
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 the one good news story part of the
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 story is nobody was injured.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 Yeah. Wow. Because it, you know, when
00:13:45 --> 00:13:46 you, as you said, it looked like a
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 nuclear explosion. It was incredible.
00:13:49 --> 00:13:52 >> Uh, and um the so there was huge
00:13:52 --> 00:13:54 potential for injury there, but but
00:13:54 --> 00:13:55 everybody was accounted for.
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 >> I I actually read today that some people
00:13:59 --> 00:14:02 who watched the explosion
00:14:02 --> 00:14:03 um this this sort of demonstrates how
00:14:03 --> 00:14:08 big and powerful it was took 37 seconds
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 to feel the shock wave.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:13 >> Really? So they must have been a long
00:14:13 --> 00:14:13 way away.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 >> Yeah. But they could see it quite
00:14:15 --> 00:14:17 clearly. It was such a big explosion.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 But the shock wave took 37 seconds to
00:14:20 --> 00:14:20 reach
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 >> there. That's amazing.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:26 >> Yeah. All right. Um so uh yeah, it it
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 does sort of throw into question the
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 future of Blue Origin um partnering with
00:14:31 --> 00:14:35 NASA for Artimus 3, but uh never write
00:14:35 --> 00:14:39 these people off. I've I've discovered
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 >> we're not doing that. Um they will rise
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 phoenix-l like from the ashes but it the
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 question is how soon and what it will do
00:14:46 --> 00:14:47 to NASA's schedule.
00:14:47 --> 00:14:49 >> Exactly with Artemis. Yeah.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 >> More to come on that and you can read
00:14:51 --> 00:14:54 about it uh at the conversation website.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunley with
00:14:56 --> 00:15:00 Professor Fred Watson.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:01 Let's take a short break from the show
00:15:01 --> 00:15:04 to tell you about our sponsor NordVPN
00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 and to discuss your online privacy.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09 Because let's face it, these days,
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 whether you're browsing at home or
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00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 >> Okay, we checked all four systems and
00:16:50 --> 00:16:50 with the go.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:51 >> Space Nuts
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 >> now. And next story, Fred, uh, has a lot
00:16:55 --> 00:16:57 of moving parts as well. Nothing
00:16:57 --> 00:17:00 explosive, but uh, we're we're talking
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 what primordial black holes and
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 gravitational microlensing. Is that is
00:17:04 --> 00:17:05 that
00:17:05 --> 00:17:06 >> what it's about?
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 >> It it's uh certainly the gravitational
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 microlensing. Uh, what it means for
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 primordial black holes, we remains to be
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 seen, but uh, it's a good opportunity to
00:17:16 --> 00:17:18 talk about it and talk about the latest
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 research on this. So, what's the story?
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 Um on the night of the 18th of December
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 2019,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:30 uh there was uh a microlensing event
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 observed with a star in the large
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 Melanic cloud, the the the nearest of
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 our sort of largeish galactic neighbors,
00:17:38 --> 00:17:41 the um the the the satellite galaxy of
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 our Milky Way, 165 light years away
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 as the crow flies as far as I remember.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 So um what's a microlensing event? Well,
00:17:50 --> 00:17:53 something passes in front of a star. Uh,
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 you can't actually see the something
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 because it's too faint. You can see the
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 light of the star. And you might think
00:18:00 --> 00:18:01 there's something passing in front of a
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 star, it would dim the light of the
00:18:04 --> 00:18:07 star. But actually, if the geometry is
00:18:07 --> 00:18:08 right, in other words, if the if there's
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 something that passes between you and
00:18:10 --> 00:18:12 the star is far enough away from the
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 star, you get the opposite effect. the
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 um distortion of the space around the
00:18:17 --> 00:18:20 invisible object uh actually acts as a
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 magnifying glass and so you get a
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 brightening of the light of the distant
00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 star. Uh and this is a phenomenon known
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30 as gravitational microlensing. It's well
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 established, well observed. Uh there's a
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 team in New Zealand which um is very
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 very adept at these microlensing
00:18:38 --> 00:18:43 observations. Uh so um what we see when
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 that happens is a rise in the brightness
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 of the star and then a fall in the
00:18:48 --> 00:18:51 brightness of the background star uh
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 which you we call a excuse me we call a
00:18:54 --> 00:18:56 light curve. It's the way the light
00:18:56 --> 00:18:58 changes over time. You can plot it out
00:18:58 --> 00:19:00 as a graph and it's got a very
00:19:00 --> 00:19:02 characteristic shape. It's a bit like a
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 a rather elongated volcano. It's got a
00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 steady rise to a peak and then a rapid
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 fall that falls away very like the
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 flanks of a a volcano. So that's the
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17 sort of shape. So this uh was the event
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 that was observed on the 18th of
00:19:20 --> 00:19:21 December.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 Can't remember which telescope it was
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 used. Uh but we have a group of
00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 Australians who are directly involved
00:19:30 --> 00:19:35 with this. Uh so they the question is
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 what was the object that passed in front
00:19:38 --> 00:19:39 of the star?
00:19:39 --> 00:19:41 >> Guess
00:19:41 --> 00:19:43 >> maybe a primordial black hole.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 >> Well that's that's the perhaps the most
00:19:47 --> 00:19:52 um provocative explanation. Uh they've
00:19:52 --> 00:19:53 given it a name this thing. They've
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 called it Phoebe which is I think a
00:19:55 --> 00:19:59 lovely name actually. Um but uh the
00:19:59 --> 00:20:05 issue is it is kind of too small to be
00:20:05 --> 00:20:10 anything normal if you put it that way.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:15 >> Um so what are the possibilities? One is
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 a what we sometimes call a rogue planet
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 or a an orphan planet. Better known
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 perhaps as a free floating planet. In
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 other words, a planetary sized object.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28 maybe something that's been ejected from
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 its solar system or something that never
00:20:31 --> 00:20:33 gained enough mass to become a star and
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 it's just sort of wandering uh through
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 the galaxy. Uh there we know there are
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 many of these things. Uh so that could
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 be one of the uh one of the explanations
00:20:44 --> 00:20:48 for it. But uh the the issue is this
00:20:48 --> 00:20:53 thing has basically got a very very
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 small mass. Uh it's only about three
00:20:56 --> 00:20:57 times the mass of the moon.
00:20:58 --> 00:20:58 >> Oh.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 >> Uh and that's kind of small for a
00:21:01 --> 00:21:06 planet. Uh so it suggests it's an object
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 that is, you know, not a dwarf planet or
00:21:10 --> 00:21:11 sorry, a rogue planet or an orphan
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 planet. Um and it points towards this
00:21:15 --> 00:21:19 much more exotic notion of a primordial
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 black hole. Uh which you've kind of, you
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 know, you've already flagged. Uh, and
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 that's where it gets really exciting.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29 So, primordial black holes, we've talked
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 about them before. They were predicted
00:21:32 --> 00:21:36 by Steven Hawking. Um, they were
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 predicted by him to have been a
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 byproduct of the big bang. In other
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 words, these are things that don't form
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 from collapsing stars like the stellar
00:21:46 --> 00:21:50 mass black holes that we see, but from
00:21:50 --> 00:21:54 um well, basically um fluctuations in
00:21:54 --> 00:21:58 the density uh in the first few
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 milliseconds after the big bang, the
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 density of that hot medium. Uh, in other
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 words, you know, if you could get these
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07 little spots that collapse
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 instantaneously to become a black hole,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 what you'll produce in the big bang is
00:22:12 --> 00:22:15 not just time and space, but you litter
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 it with these primordial black holes.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:21 And I think it's from Hawking's work
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 that we assume that they can be any size
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 you like. Um they can be you know
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 perhaps uh super massive black holes
00:22:30 --> 00:22:31 which we know are the centers of
00:22:31 --> 00:22:36 galaxies uh or smaller than stellar mass
00:22:36 --> 00:22:38 black holes. And so by a stellar mass
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 black hole we mean one that has a mass
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 of about not too different from a star.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45 In fact typically about five times the
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 mass of the sun. Um and they are thought
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 to have been caused by a star exploding
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 at the end of its life. The core
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 collapses. uh nothing will stop the
00:22:54 --> 00:22:55 collapse and it goes into becoming a
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 black hole. But for a star to behave
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 like that, it's got to be massive. It's
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 got to be at least well five to 10 times
00:23:03 --> 00:23:06 the mass of the sun. Um so that does not
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09 account for things that are three times
00:23:09 --> 00:23:13 the mass of the moon. Uh but if you can
00:23:13 --> 00:23:16 have um if you can have primordial black
00:23:16 --> 00:23:21 holes of any mass then that makes Phoebe
00:23:21 --> 00:23:26 a very distinct candidate for a a
00:23:26 --> 00:23:28 primordial black hole. Um I might
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31 mention that the researchers who've done
00:23:31 --> 00:23:34 this uh work are at Swimburn University
00:23:34 --> 00:23:37 in Melbourne uh an university very
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 active in its studies of actually most
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 phenomena to do with our galaxy. Uh
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 they've got some extremely talented
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 scientists there some of whom I know
00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 quite well.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:51 >> Um so uh it's it's definitely a
00:23:51 --> 00:23:53 microlensing event. Something has caused
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 this phenomenon. Uh the question is what
00:23:56 --> 00:23:57 is it?
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 So let me um
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 segue if I may to one of the talks at
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 the conference that I was at in Germany.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:08 >> Yeah.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 >> Uh given by people who are well in this
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 case it was a black hole specialist
00:24:13 --> 00:24:18 >> and he was saying that the the evidence
00:24:18 --> 00:24:24 for primordial black holes is growing.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 Uh and this is just one more example of
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 it. this the the example of Phoebe here.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 Uh but he also said he thought this was
00:24:32 --> 00:24:36 the next big thing in black hole science
00:24:36 --> 00:24:40 uh to actually determine the reality of
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 primordial black holes whether they are
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 there or whether they're just a a wild
00:24:44 --> 00:24:48 prediction of of Professor Hawking. Um
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 but he also made the comment the comment
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 sorry not the comet he made the comment
00:24:54 --> 00:24:58 that uh it was his belief that the next
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 Nobel Prize in astronomy or physics is
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 is the way it goes would be the
00:25:03 --> 00:25:07 discovery of a primordial black hole. In
00:25:07 --> 00:25:08 other words
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 finding absolutely rocksolid evidence
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 that primordial black holes exist. Now,
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 Phoebe is not that rockolid evidence
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 because we've got multiple theories.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 >> Uh, yeah, multiple theories. It could
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 even be uh, you know, a a lost satellite
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 of a planet that's been chucked out of
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 its solar system.
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30 >> So, it could be an object like the moon
00:25:30 --> 00:25:32 or Mercury or something like that.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 >> But that seems unlikely. Um, but and in
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 fact, the um the, you know, the the
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 primordial mass black hole idea I think
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 is much more interesting. It's one that
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 I'm sure will be looked at in detail.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 The problem with these gravitational
00:25:48 --> 00:25:50 micro lenting events, Andrew, is you
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52 only get one shot at it. You never see
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 the object again. So Phoebe's basically
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 never going to be seen again. All we've
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 seen is the effect of it passing in
00:25:59 --> 00:26:00 front of a star.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:04 >> Yeah. Um, so, uh, what we've got to look
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 for is other perhaps other similar
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 phenomena, uh, or something that is an
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 unequivocally a black hole but has a
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 mass less than the sun. And we did talk
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 about a candidate object uh, before we
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 both went on our various surn. Uh, we
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 did talk about an object like that. I'd
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 need to look it up to find out what it
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26 was. But if, you know, if we can nail
00:26:26 --> 00:26:28 one of these things and say that is
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 definitely what it is. Um, in fact, the
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 object we talked about was the result of
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35 a, I think, a collision that was
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 measured with gravitational waves. So,
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 all this is perhaps pointing to the idea
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 of primordial mass black holes. Somebody
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 will nail it before too long and they'll
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 probably get the Nobel Prize. Well, I
00:26:47 --> 00:26:49 suppose we shouldn't be surprised
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 because in the past we've had theories
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 about things existing and voila,
00:26:54 --> 00:26:57 suddenly we find an exoplanet and now we
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 found thousands and thousands of them.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:01 So, it stands to reason that this is
00:27:01 --> 00:27:02 just another progression in that regard.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 We're
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 >> the evidence is stacking up. We haven't
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 confirmed one yet, but it sounds like
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 it's going to happen. Yeah, I think
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14 that's right. I think we're on the track
00:27:14 --> 00:27:20 of uh a whole new regime of physics. And
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 of course, uh primordial black holes are
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 one potential candidate for dark matter.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:27 Mhm.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:33 >> Um, which was ruled out in the 1990s,
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 maybe prematurely. It was ruled out
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 because we didn't see a whole lot of
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 these microlending events, which you'd
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 expect to see if there was a lot of
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 primordial mass black holes. Maybe it's
00:27:45 --> 00:27:46 just that we weren't looking hard enough
00:27:46 --> 00:27:47 that we missed them.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:48 >> Maybe.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:49 >> Um, yeah,
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 >> I never look hard enough for anything.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:51 No.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 >> Well, well, that's cuz you're a you're a
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 male. Yeah, you're a bloke and we don't
00:27:57 --> 00:27:59 we we look at something and we just
00:27:59 --> 00:28:00 don't see it.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 >> No. No.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 >> Which is, you know, not real good for
00:28:06 --> 00:28:07 human history because weren't we the
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09 hunters? Like we were supposed to be
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 able to see stuff that quite
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 >> Oh dear. Uh it's a a really fascinating
00:28:15 --> 00:28:18 story and I venture to say there'll be
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20 more on this in the not too distant
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 future, but you can read about it uh
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 great article about it on the
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 universetoday.com
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28 website. You're listening to and
00:28:28 --> 00:28:30 possibly viewing space nuts with Andrew
00:28:30 --> 00:28:35 Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 >> Roger. Also,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39 >> Space Nuts. Now, final story, Fred,
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 intrigues me for one very good reason.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 It's one of the pet topics of our
00:28:44 --> 00:28:45 audience. We get a lot of questions
00:28:45 --> 00:28:50 about dark energy. But this s story pers
00:28:50 --> 00:28:53 the question, did we actually invent
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 dark energy for nothing? Why are they
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 suggesting that?
00:28:58 --> 00:28:59 >> Um,
00:28:59 --> 00:29:03 yeah, it's all mathematics.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 And I'd like just to refer uh listeners
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 and viewers uh at the outset to a very
00:29:09 --> 00:29:14 nice article uh on this uh from um our
00:29:14 --> 00:29:17 much admired Universe Today uh website
00:29:17 --> 00:29:21 that's kind of an old friend of of um of
00:29:21 --> 00:29:23 Space Nuts, an article written by Mark
00:29:23 --> 00:29:27 Thompson uh which really very eloquently
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 puts this story into perspective. And
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 I'm I'm going to quote Mark. I hope he
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 won't mind me doing that. Um it because
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 he he introduces this uh this article by
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 saying stand a pencil on its end and
00:29:40 --> 00:29:43 mathematically speaking it's perfectly
00:29:43 --> 00:29:44 balanced. Every force is accounted for
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 and the equations are satisfied. And yet
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 you already know what happens next, the
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51 slightest disturbance and it topples. A
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 solution that exists on paper but can
00:29:54 --> 00:29:58 never survive contact with reality. In
00:29:58 --> 00:30:01 other words, um something that's stable
00:30:01 --> 00:30:05 but only stable briefly. Uh I think I'm
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 paraphrasing what he's getting at with
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 that. Yeah. Uh but just to read a little
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 bit further uh from Mark's article,
00:30:11 --> 00:30:13 that's the image Blake Temple, a
00:30:13 --> 00:30:14 mathematician at the University of
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17 California, Davis, uses to describe our
00:30:17 --> 00:30:19 best model of the universe. And it's a
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 deeply uncomfortable one. And so I think
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 the way this story evolves is that yes
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 we've uh for 30 years almost 30 years
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 it's 1998
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 when the accelerated expansion of the
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35 universe was discovered.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36 >> Yeah.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 >> Uh by uh my colleague um Bradmitt and
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 his uh uh his actually competitors over
00:30:44 --> 00:30:47 over the Pacific Soul Pul Muta and his
00:30:47 --> 00:30:49 team. uh they they jointly won the Nobel
00:30:49 --> 00:30:53 Prize in 2011 for that discovery that
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 the um the accelerate the expansion of
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 the universe is accelerating and so um
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 the issue was to try and explain that
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05 and that's why dark energy was
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 introduced as a as a concept uh an
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10 invisible
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 outward pressure um that is part of
00:31:13 --> 00:31:16 space uh just pushes space and
00:31:16 --> 00:31:20 everything in it apart. part. Um and so
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 that's where we get our idea of dark
00:31:23 --> 00:31:27 energy from. But um this um
00:31:27 --> 00:31:31 mathematician uh Blake Temple has said
00:31:32 --> 00:31:36 okay maybe we're taking too simplistic a
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 view of all this. Uh and uh I think it's
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 a group of uh of mathematicians led by
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 Dr. Temple. uh they've got a paper in
00:31:46 --> 00:31:48 the proceedings of the Royal Society.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:49 You don't get papers in there if they're
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 rubbish. So, no.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:52 >> Uh there's something to think about
00:31:52 --> 00:31:55 there. And they've actually uh
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58 mathematically demonstrated
00:31:58 --> 00:32:03 that our u model of the expansion of the
00:32:03 --> 00:32:07 universe with dark energy in it is
00:32:07 --> 00:32:11 unstable. Uh it's something that can't
00:32:11 --> 00:32:12 survive.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:16 Um and that's
00:32:16 --> 00:32:21 almost uh means that you can rule it out
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 uh in the world of physics. Uh if you've
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 got a solution that's unstable uh then
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 it shouldn't it shouldn't happen. And so
00:32:30 --> 00:32:34 um what u uh Dr. Temple and his
00:32:34 --> 00:32:37 associates are proposing is that we've
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 got it wrong. uh and that uh the model
00:32:41 --> 00:32:45 of the universe that we that we have
00:32:45 --> 00:32:49 which assumes that matter is basically
00:32:49 --> 00:32:50 spread throughout the universe. You know
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 that the universe isotropic. It's the
00:32:53 --> 00:32:57 same in all directions. Uh is suggesting
00:32:57 --> 00:33:01 that that is also unstable.
00:33:01 --> 00:33:04 um and that really we have to take into
00:33:04 --> 00:33:06 account the fact that the universe isn't
00:33:06 --> 00:33:12 the same everywhere. Um it's uh it's I
00:33:12 --> 00:33:14 can't really go in deeply to the
00:33:14 --> 00:33:16 mathematics because I'm actually looked
00:33:16 --> 00:33:20 at the the the original paper. Um and so
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23 I haven't followed the mathematical
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26 um steps in the process. And between you
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 and me, Andrew, I probably couldn't
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 anyway even if I looked at the paper.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33 I do remember what some of the equations
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 that uh that govern this sort of thing
00:33:36 --> 00:33:37 look like. And I do remember the
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 emotional response that my my psyche
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 gets to them. But basically um what
00:33:44 --> 00:33:49 they're saying is that uh
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 that accelerated expansion
00:33:52 --> 00:33:57 um is actually part of what Einstein
00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 suggested in the first place um without
00:34:01 --> 00:34:05 the need to invoke dark energy. Uh and
00:34:05 --> 00:34:09 it it's it's it's I'm simplifying I
00:34:09 --> 00:34:13 guess uh what um Mark the the author of
00:34:13 --> 00:34:15 this this article has written. Uh but
00:34:15 --> 00:34:19 the bottom line is that um our our um
00:34:19 --> 00:34:21 view of the universe on its largest
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 scale is probably naive. It's probably
00:34:26 --> 00:34:29 we've perhaps oversimplified it and as a
00:34:29 --> 00:34:31 result of that we've come out with the
00:34:31 --> 00:34:34 wrong answer. Um, I might just
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36 >> That's a really big call though, isn't
00:34:36 --> 00:34:36 it?
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 >> It's a huge call. Absolutely huge call.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 Uh,
00:34:41 --> 00:34:44 I I Let me just wind up with the last
00:34:44 --> 00:34:45 paragraph that uh
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 >> Yeah, I was just looking at that myself
00:34:48 --> 00:34:49 >> because that's the Yeah, that Mark
00:34:49 --> 00:34:51 Thompson's written. I think it really
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 sums it up. Dark energy has never felt
00:34:54 --> 00:34:56 entirely comfortable to many scientists.
00:34:56 --> 00:34:58 Einstein himself introduced something
00:34:58 --> 00:34:59 very like it, which he called his
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 cosmological constant. then subsequently
00:35:02 --> 00:35:04 called it his biggest blunder. It was
00:35:04 --> 00:35:06 quietly resurrected in the 1990s when
00:35:06 --> 00:35:08 the data demanded it. That's when the
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 accelerated expansion was discovered.
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13 Now the mathematics might be telling us
00:35:13 --> 00:35:15 it was never needed in the first place.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:17 The universe, it turns out, may be s
00:35:17 --> 00:35:21 stranger and simpler than we thought,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:23 only both at the same time. It's a great
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 article. I encourage all our listeners
00:35:26 --> 00:35:27 to have a look at it. Yes, it's at the
00:35:28 --> 00:35:29 universitytoday.com
00:35:29 --> 00:35:32 website or you can read the paper at the
00:35:32 --> 00:35:34 proceedings of the Royal Society. But uh
00:35:34 --> 00:35:36 I dare say we haven't heard the last of
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38 this.
00:35:38 --> 00:35:39 >> Uh and what if what if we have got it
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 wrong? What if dark energy is a fury? Um
00:35:43 --> 00:35:45 that that's the that's the big question.
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48 But uh they they seem to be
00:35:48 --> 00:35:50 >> ing towards the probability that it that
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52 it is in fact a fury.
00:35:52 --> 00:35:57 >> That that's right. Um, you know, uh,
00:35:57 --> 00:36:02 I suspect that, um, this theory, uh, if
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04 you, if you eliminate the need for dark
00:36:04 --> 00:36:06 energy, you might well eliminate the
00:36:06 --> 00:36:08 need for dark matter as well.
00:36:08 --> 00:36:11 >> Uh, or it might turn out to be
00:36:11 --> 00:36:12 primordial black holes. Look, we're
00:36:12 --> 00:36:16 we've covered two potential uh,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 solutions to the dark matter problem in
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 this in this episode. Uh, nobody can
00:36:21 --> 00:36:23 accuse us of not addressing the big
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24 questions, Andrew.
00:36:24 --> 00:36:26 >> Absolutely. We just don't give them the
00:36:26 --> 00:36:26 big answers.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28 >> We don't give them the answers. No,
00:36:28 --> 00:36:28 that's right.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 >> Leave that to somebody else
00:36:30 --> 00:36:31 >> because we don't know.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:33 >> No, we don't. No, we don't. But, uh, no,
00:36:33 --> 00:36:35 fascinating, fascinating story. Couple
00:36:35 --> 00:36:38 of fascinating stories. Uh, and it all
00:36:38 --> 00:36:39 started with a big bang called Blue
00:36:39 --> 00:36:40 Origin. Um,
00:36:40 --> 00:36:43 >> yes, it did. That's right. It was a huge
00:36:43 --> 00:36:43 bang.
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46 >> It was. Uh, that brings us to the end.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:48 Fred, thank you very much.
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 >> It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to
00:36:50 --> 00:36:52 have a chat and uh bring to the
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54 forefront exactly what's happening in
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56 the deep depths of the universe.
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 >> Indeed. And good to have you back too.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:00 Thank you. Professor Fred Watson,
00:37:00 --> 00:37:01 astronomer at large. Uh don't forget to
00:37:01 --> 00:37:04 visit us online at our website if you so
00:37:04 --> 00:37:06 desire. Uh spaceodcast.com.
00:37:06 --> 00:37:09 You can click on the AMA link at the top
00:37:09 --> 00:37:12 and ask us anything or ask u anybody
00:37:12 --> 00:37:14 anything really, but we always make
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00:37:19 --> 00:37:20 become a supporter if you so desire. And
00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 don't forget to leave uh reviews at your
00:37:23 --> 00:37:25 favorite podcasting platform. Wherever
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27 you listen to us, reviews are really
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29 useful, unless they're bad. But then
00:37:29 --> 00:37:30 again, there are some people who like
00:37:30 --> 00:37:32 bad because they want to see what all
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34 the fuss is about. Uh but don't do it.
00:37:34 --> 00:37:36 Don't you want to? I'm not going to tell
00:37:36 --> 00:37:38 you what to do. Um but anyway, that's
00:37:38 --> 00:37:41 it. And thanks to Hugh in the studio who
00:37:41 --> 00:37:42 couldn't be with us today because he's a
00:37:42 --> 00:37:44 fury. And from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46 for your company on this edition. and
00:37:46 --> 00:37:48 we'll catch you on the next episode of
00:37:48 --> 00:37:50 Space Nuts. Bye-bye.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:51 >> Space Nuts.
00:37:51 --> 00:37:53 >> You've been listening to the Space Nuts
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